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MaJean

A thread about changes to Onslaught

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[[166314,users]] It's happening on the PC.

I think the idea of a checkpoint system that costs medals/gems to pick up where you left off would be good. This may not be an ideal solution but it would definitely serve to improve QOL until a better solution is found.

A good way of setting it up would be having the system save a checkpoint when finishing a map. Not only would this enable players to restart the 2nd or 3rd map but it would also prevent any issues with losing progress from a failed map load (i.e. losing a finished floor). The first retry could be free and each subsequent retry could cost medals/gems (like Ascension/Ancient Power resets) until the floor is beaten.

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I had a thought as far as easing the floor clear requirement a bit while keeping the spirit of it-

Earn continues for every X number of completed maps or floors. If you fail on the second or third map, you can use a continue to retry without repeating the floor. (to prevent abuse it should probably need every participating player to have one)z

I guess kind of like what Sniper said but without the monetization (I wouldnt be against allowing the use of gems/medals though)

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If you are going to allow us to access the 3rd map again, it most likely best to do it as a completely free system. I get that the suggestions here are trying to counter abuse of some kind, but coming up with any system that makes you "buy" your way back on the map is, in the end, just punitive. If i earned my way to the 3rd map, i should be able to go at it . The big issue here for most is that the difficulty curve of the 3 map, and the time spent to get there make resets soul crushing, especially if you lost on the last map, last wave, and due to some small issue (like not being able to see the boss icon and know where it is). That is an issue with design - not skill (well not entirely of course, for many players at least). A design issue should not have to be bought to be fixed. Either the system does not work and it should be changed, or a workaround should be created that appeases the issue. 

Any version of a fix that includes a way to "buy" access back would do as much harm as good IMO. At this point you really have two choices to avoid huge fanboy outrage from the DD2 community - 1) allow anyone to replay the floor/map they were last on, even if map 3 of 3, or 2) eliminate all 3 stage floors. No need to make it complex, just give us access or scrap it. 

In that sense, i would recommend to eliminate the whole multi floor thing. Just make each map = 1 floor. Then each 3rd map can be the new map. Then we would all just go to a higher total floor number...and so what? Just adjust the POTA requirements accordingly. Now there is no need for a replay button or any buy back gimmick. 

In fixing one issue, try not to accidentally create another one. Keep it simple. Give people what they want. Right now, the community has clearly spoken - we do not like the 3 map/floor system as it currently is. Show you have the heart of the DD2 community in mind with how you fix this issue please. 

Make Grinding Fun Again 

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@Jaws_420 quote:

If you are going to allow us to access the 3rd map again, it most likely best to do it as a completely free system. I get that the suggestions here are trying to counter abuse of some kind, but coming up with any system that makes you "buy" your way back on the map is, in the end, just punitive.

There is supposed to be a consequence for failiure. So yes, it's punitive, but I and others have proposed making it a little less such. I wouldn't necessairly oppose the idea of reducing the number of maps you need to play, but the whole ancient power system, for instance, was probably designed and based on projections of how long it would take a player to do. So it could trigger a lot of extra work that would make such a change expensive, time-wise.

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@Alhanalem quote:

There is supposed to be a consequence for failiure. So yes, it's punitive, but I and others have proposed making it a little less such. I wouldn't necessairly oppose the idea of reducing the number of maps you need to play, but the whole ancient power system, for instance, was probably designed and based on projections of how long it would take a player to do. So it could trigger a lot of extra work that would make such a change expensive, time-wise.

Losing a whole floor of 3 maps and almost 3 hours of play due to one mistake is not punitive - it's a way to drive your fanbase off, and in case you haven't noticed on the boards, players are not happy about it. I have no issues with something i cannot do based on skill alone. That's on me. However this whole 3 map system...TE overdid it. 

I'm not sure i see the whole "expensive" change making the POTA floors go from 3 per to 1 per... The only thing that would need adjusted, other than just the code that directs you to what floors will be played obviously and the text "1/3" being replaced (with the already existing text of "1/1"), is renumbering the Chaos floor # and POTA requirements (which we all could do right now with math alone). 

Watch how easy it is...right now floor 9 unlocks Chaos 3. Floor 9 = Floor 1(1 map) + 2(2) + 3(3) + 4(1) + 5(2) +6(3) +7(1) + 8(2) + 9(3) = floor 18. Now make Chaos 3 unlock at floor 18. One map = 1 floor. Same goes for POTA. Just do the math of Floor 65, and redo the # for the reset requirement. Exact same amount of floors played by us either way, and no need to adjust any time frames. 

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I honestly don't mind what we get at this point, so long as we don't have to restart the whole floor. I suggested the '1 free retry then monetization per floor' to accommodate players who fail from disconnects/crashes/etc. and to prevent unlimited retries from players who fail legit. I can't see having a 100% completely free system (as in the case of 1 map per floor) as that would blur the line between Onslaught and Trials.

We can earn 225 - 450 medals a day from dailies in addition to whatever we get from maps, so if we got a couple free resets per day out of this system, it would be great! This would be identical to the system Nintendo uses in Super Smash Bros. for continuing (with the primary difference being that progress can be resumed regardless the reason - even if it's just to take a break). Trendy could even make it cost gold which would add more incentive to prestiging.

What you mentioned, Alhanalem, is a good alternative. It sounds like the equivalent of collecting lives in retro games. The only question I have with that system is whether completing previous floors can build up continues or it's a one time thing per floor (per Ancient Power reset).

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@Sn/+/per quote:

I honestly don't mind what we get at this point, so long as we don't have to restart the whole floor. I suggested the '1 free retry then monetization per floor' to accommodate players who fail from disconnects/crashes/etc. and to prevent unlimited retries from players who fail legit. I can't see having a 100% completely free system (as in the case of 1 map per floor) as that would blur the line between Onslaught and Trials.

We can earn 225 - 450 medals a day from dailies in addition to whatever we get from maps, so if we got a couple free resets per day out of this system, it would be great! This would be identical to the system Nintendo uses in Super Smash Bros. for continuing (with the primary difference being that progress can be resumed regardless the reason - even if it's just to take a break). Trendy could even make it cost gold which would add more incentive to prestiging.

What you mentioned, Alhanalem, is a good alternative. It sounds like the equivalent of collecting lives in retro games. The only question I have with that system is whether completing previous floors can build up continues or it's a one time thing per floor (per Ancient Power reset).

I would agree on spending for retries so as long as the price ain't 100 or more DM. It's quite insane if we were to spend the same amount as rerolling a Defender Pack.

Or maybe we could have Ancient retry Tokens that can be bought with DM cheaply (definitely not100 DM either.) sold by the Treasure Hunter. And since it's tokens maybe people would hesitant to recklessly spend them.

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@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:

Or maybe we could have Ancient retry Tokens that can be bought with DM cheaply (definitely not 50 -100 DM either.) sold by the Treasure Hunter.

I like that idea. Having more items in the Treasure Pirate is much needed. If Trendy goes with this, it should be stackable to 99. Like Defender Packs, these could also sometimes drop from completing Floors.

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@Sn/+/per quote:
@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:

Or maybe we could have Ancient retry Tokens that can be bought with DM cheaply (definitely not 50 -100 DM either.) sold by the Treasure Hunter.

I like that idea. Having more items in the Treasure Pirate is much needed. If Trendy goes with this, it should be stackable to 99. Like Defender Packs, these could also sometimes drop from completing Floors.

That would be quite nice. Now I'm really hoping Trendy would roll with this. It's sound cooler the more you think of it than plain ol' retry.

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@Alhanalem quote:


@Jaws_420 quote:

If you are going to allow us to access the 3rd map again, it most likely best to do it as a completely free system. I get that the suggestions here are trying to counter abuse of some kind, but coming up with any system that makes you "buy" your way back on the map is, in the end, just punitive.

There is supposed to be a consequence for failiure. So yes, it's punitive, but I and others have proposed making it a little less such. I wouldn't necessairly oppose the idea of reducing the number of maps you need to play, but the whole ancient power system, for instance, was probably designed and based on projections of how long it would take a player to do. So it could trigger a lot of extra work that would make such a change expensive, time-wise.

There was Consequences for me after having to restart first map after losing map level 57 map3 i just quit onslaught and haven't played onslaught again / im glad others enjoying onslaught but it killed the game for me now i maybe play 10  to 15 minutes a day just for dailys and a little longer when i do weekly 

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We've got a replay system we're working on (with maybe a little bit more), just takes time to implement, test, and then push. Never fear, if everything goes as planned, it is on its way! :)

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@Lawlta quote:

We've got a replay system we're working on (with maybe a little bit more), just takes time to implement, test, and then push. Never fear, if everything goes as planned, it is on its way! :)

Any ETA? :P

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i really don't think the challenge of onslaught hinges on stringing together 3 wins without a gamecrash or timeout. it's the unique lane compositions, lane mutators, and the new map with the "new lane each wave" mechanic that sets onslaught apart.

not sure i'm on board with retries, as i'd imagine this wouldn't help after a complete gamecrash. nor do i want to spend any amount of DM's due to a crash or playverse timeout.

we should have single map progression imo, if i win map 2/3 and on lost temple i a) fail the map, b) crash or disconnect, or c) choose to leave the game i should be able to start back up on temple the next time i play.

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@soulow quote:

we should have single map progression imo, if i win map 2/3 and on lost temple i a) fail the map, b) crash or disconnect, or c) choose to leave the game i should be able to start back up on temple the next time i play.

That's a very interesting idea.

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In an “infinite mode” it is sort of on TE to decide how hard it should be when (since everyone will hit a wall eventually). A significant part of the difficulty is the potential lane combinations/location (schedule, mutations and spawn location combination). I failed floor 131  3x before passing (maybe the most times I have failed a floor since learning the mutations in early 60’s) but last night did 135 and it was SO EASY. And it is mostly based on what it throws at me (not the difficult of the specific enemies). Winning is RNG. 135 had 1/2 the bird lanes I usually get. It had less cyborgs. It had a short burn lane BUT didn’t put frosties in it. It never gave me a 2nd or 3rd burn lane. It had a boss lane with a nice long stretch. I could have pulled 20% of DU off the map and still AFK’d it.

These are becoming more rare, but the fact they still exist means that any option to redo (or to not have to complete 3 RNG maps) will mean I can push higher. Full stop.

Does that really matter in an infinite mode? I won’t complain if they do it, but whether I hit a wall at one floor vs another, a wall is a wall. (But I get the need to have a way to address disconnects and such).

If they change nothing I plan to try to push low 150’s before resetting. If they allow any redo’s I will probably try to push a little higher. For me it is just becoming less enjoyable.

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Lawlta Does that replay system include replays for disconnects (whatever the reason may be)?

I'm noticing a pattern with when servers expire. Each time Playverse expired on me, it was 2 minutes after the hour. It expired again on me today at 6:02pm EST on Map 3, Floor 71. Yesterday, it was at 2:02pm on Map 2, Floor 70.

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@Sn/+/per quote:

Lawlta Does that replay system include replays for disconnects (whatever the reason may be)?

I'm noticing a pattern with when servers expire. Each time Playverse expired on me, it was 2 minutes after the hour. It expired again on me today at 6:02pm EST on Map 3, Floor 71. Yesterday, it was at 2:02pm on Map 2, Floor 70.

Yeah, that's another big issue other than that of losing a match.

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I got my first legit loss today, it was on Map 3, Floor 72. I had a sinking feeling in my stomach at 9:01am, waiting to see if I'd get disconnected. I was too busy focusing on the time to notice a core dying. Felt as bad as being disconnected since I lost from the anxiety of being disconnected.

I feel until this replay system goes into effect, floors should be 2 maps tops. I can't reliably complete 3 maps in under an hour.

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Having a save progress after every completed map should have been the minimum at the start and is long overdue.

Whilst Onslaught is way more fun than Trials and infinitely better than Mastery, the lack of save kills it.

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Was playing Onslaught with my boyfriend today, we made it to the 3rd floor of challenge 6... after 7 hours of play (yes we failed a couple times and retry, we finally get at challenge 4/5 on floor 3 with high hopes to finish this onslaught... then we get session expired message and we get disconnected.   Was so pissed off, what a waste of a day, and now we have to start all the floors again because there is no save between floors in each level.  So much for playing the game casually every day. It will become a weekend thing...if that!  Poor design, this NEEDS to be changed.  No warnings that the game has to be done within a certain time, no timer to let you know how long you have left.  Anyhow, the floors should be saved...

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Yeah a save option that keeps track of your reroll uses and floor schedules would be nice. Oh and team composition too. That way you dont have to sit for hours at a time and yet still make the game unexploitable. If that can be done, it would be awesome.

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When floor progress is saved should also be changed - Players are initially unaware of this but floor progress isn't saved until they've successfully completed a map change. That is, if they quit/disconnect before successfully loading the next floor/tavern/hub, their previous floor's progress is lost. Like map progress toward dailies, floor progress should be saved when rewards are given out at the end of a match.

Should the decision to add a checkpoint system come to fruition, having a system in place like above should make it smoother to implement. Whether a checkpoint system is added or Onslaught is limited to 2 maps per floor, something needs changed to limit the number of disconnects. On that note, improvements like this are a step in the right direction!

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@Sn/+/per quote:

When floor progress is saved should also be changed - Players are initially unaware of this but floor progress isn't saved until they've successfully completed a map change. That is, if they quit/disconnect before successfully loading the next floor/tavern/hub, their previous floor's progress is lost. Like map progress toward dailies, floor progress should be saved when rewards are given out at the end of a match.

Should the decision to add a checkpoint system come to fruition, having a system in place like above should make it smoother to implement. Whether a checkpoint system is added or Onslaught is limited to 2 maps per floor, something needs changed to limit the number of disconnects. On that note, improvements like this are a step in the right direction!

I agree completely.  There is no reason progress can't be updated like Daily, Weekly, or Mastery is updated, which is at the end of the match.  Even Mastery is updated after hitting "G" at the end of a game and before loading another map.

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