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The Jason Order

Minimizing Player Frustration

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I feel like...one of the easiest solutions to keep the continuity of how the Developers want this game mode to feel is to add a tiny bit more DU to Onslaught. After Crushing C7s through Dbl XP weekend. Getting straight into Onslaught at floor 55 and getting C7 enemies and the same DU for a C7 map, that has buffed enemies. Feels like C8...

 Even just an additional 40 DU to accommodate an extra reflect beam when multiple schedules of Hex,Frost throwers, reg throwers and the couple other projectile hurling enemies all spawn on multiple lanes. Adjusting DU depending on schedules and buffs is probably way too complicated a process to balance but, Just adding 40-60 DU to a floor would really help. 

Maybe add a Starting DU bonus to AP. So that the 1st time you reset you get 1/4 an Upgrades worth of DU to use on Onslaught. Really don't see it being needed for trials.  So that on your 4th reset you'll have 50 Additional DU to start any onslaught map with a Free upgrade at only wave 1. Just an idea.

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@enigma007 quote:

We already have a gear scaling system introduced with mastery. Why just not use it here? 

Something like "After reset your gear lose upgrade levels and downgrades to campaign stats. Progress through the game to return it's former power." sounds fair enough for everyone involved. 

Maybe even add a 1 bonus upgrade level for all your gear for each ancient reset you did.

Not sure what to do about ascension though.

Yeah good idea that exists in some dungeon crawler rpg with rebirth system. You tag a limited number of item that get carried over to your next playtrough (could be something like 1 for first rebirth and add one every rebirth).

And the item could benefit like you said from a plus in stats or upgrade level or just a cosmetic glow that dont give stats.

But it would still give more incentive to use your rebirth :/

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I want ancient power I would happily reset if I could get to level 65 but I cant get there. I started at 55 and now today im at 57. Two levels in how many days and I have been playing so much. Now I mostly just join low level games close to finishing in the hopes I will get a loot box. Thats just sad game play. 

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@The Jason Order quote:

With the release of Onslaught comes a whole slew of new content and features. Some good, some great, some... frustrating. Let's take a look at some of the more common complaints I've been seeing and hearing and think of some ways we can address them.

1. Progress. Losses on later maps of a floor feel extremely frustrating. Losing on map 3 of a floor is a loss of an hour or more. Sometimes the loss isn't even your fault. Bugs, pathing issues, random projectiles hitting cores across the map, you name it. You occasionally lose for no legitimate reason, and are faced with the arduous process of starting over after having made zero progress. It's even worse if you disconnect. I've seen streamers lose Map 3 wave 5 to Lady Orks running a marathon in another direction to a core across the map. I was talking to a friend who disconnected on Wave 5 Map 3 and just logged out.

  • Potential Solution 1: Save progress each map.
  • Potential Solution 2: Allow players a certain number of "lives" per day.
  • Potential Solution 3: Allow players to retry a certain number of times per floor.
  • Potential Solution 4: Allow players to purchase retries for gold / medals.

All of these have potential issues, but some form of mitigation against bad luck would go a long way towards reducing the frustration involved with only "saving" progress every 1+ hours .

2. Grouping. I can't play with my friends. I've been hearing this a lot. The game has always had issues with its social aspects, and Onslaught pushes this even further by massively segregating the player base.

There's no easy solution here, but the current system separates players by 10-20 hours of mindless drudgery to partially catch up to your friends.

3. Ancient Power. Prestiging for the first time is extremely unattractive and undesirable. Losing 100s of hours of progress for a 1% power gain that won't even be felt until you reach the end game again, which is... potentially 100s of hours away. Other games with a prestige system in place offer substantially better rewards or have reduced time to re-earn what you've lost. Dungeon Defenders 2 has neither. Instead, they offer infinitely stacking rewards to gold and exp that will become a huge problem later on for the health of the game but start out mediocre.

  • Increase the power of Ancient Power. They are extremely underwhelming until the very very late game in which all players have multiple and large Ascension bonuses. As is, players will literally not even notice them at all until 200+ hours in.
  • Reduce the time needed to Prestige. Allow a minimum floor based on your highest progress. Make it to 200? Clearly you are good enough to not need to start on floor 1.

4. Player Agency. Random Random Random. Every map is random. Every lane is random. Random is random. At some point players will want to play a certain lane setup on a certain map. They are never given this option. They are never even allowed to play a certain map. I'm personally fine with less rewards if I pick a specific map, but as it stands, there is no option for me at all. I feel like I have no choice in what I want to do, and it feels awful.

  • Potential solution 1: You can pick your first map of Trials. Then streaks are random. Loot is weighted towards win streaks. Players can now pick a map they want, or progress on an easier one (or just spend time really figuring out one map).
  • Potential solution 2: Practice mode. Practice any map, and maybe any lane combinations / mutators. Not sure how feasible this is on the tech end.
  • Potential solution 3: You can pick your first map on each floor of Onslaught. Really, what's the harm here? Maybe one map is picked 100% of the time. Maybe then it's time for some slight DU adjustments.

Trendy has shown that they are responsive to feedback. Not always in the ways that people want, but they do listen, and occasionally they do make changes that go against what they originally planned. Let's make our voices heard. Now that Onslaught is out, it's time to shift the direction of development towards quality of life changes.

Totally Agre!! Make the game interesting not repetitive!!

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@forgot_my_acct_name quote:

I just lost on map 3 from a lady orc running past my wall.  No longer am I wasting 8-10 minutes of my life due to this bug.  Now it's an hour.  This bug combined with the 3 map reset is not tolerable.  

Are you sure it wasn't a lane with Phasing buff?

 Don't get me wrong I have lost more than a few times to a lady Ork squeezing through a blockades somehow way before Onsluaght arrived. But in most occasions it's the Builders fault them Berserkers are crafty. 

 If your blockades are too close to a spawner they run right through it's taunt. But it's part of their Mechanic. You gotta put walls a little further down the lane if possible so they can Run up against it until their timed(I'm assuming cause combat all works off seconds) Jog wears off. Watch their animations. They run to a certain point down the lane if your wall is too close they keep running for a sec and can squeeze by if your not real carful on placements. Especially if placing wall at a curve in the lane.The Berserkers tend to cut corners or take the "inside line" of the curve. They been doin that since we first encountered them C4. Just be mindful of it!


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@Sanguine quote:



Trendy has never let us down and they won't start now.

This is suspect. How about the overwhelming complaints about the trials system and game play that the community has been saying since the first week of trials? Not only have they not incorporated any changes to address those complaints THEY BASICALLY PUT TRIALS MODE INTO THE NEW SYSTEM. That in itself is a massive let down. 

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This game is great, so was DD1, but its effectively over for me now that the reset is introduced. Since reading about it, I haven't played a single minute of DD2. Its not a protest, its just completely pointless IMO. Doing it all again?? Who would ever want to do everything they've spent SO much time doing once already. I can't think of anything more boring than grinding up from C1 again. I'd rather find a new game.


My proposal would be:

The Onslaught idea with the Floor system is great, but it needs to be a truly endless system where players just keep going up without resetting. Make the difficulty curve exponential, so that you just play on into infinity. But, make that next step x% more harder than the last one, so eventually the gap is so high as to be insurmountable (but that point is very far off and very difficult to even get near). I'd use the analogy of approaching the speed of light. Its impossible to get there because the faster you go the more energy you need, and as you get closer, you need an infinite amount.


It would mean the very top players may get very close, and a single floor at that level would be the difference between best and the absolute cream of the crop. Eventually, you would need a perfect build and be on perfect form to progress, and ultimately you couldn't even do that.


And gear, again, C7 gear dropping from 55-65 as it is now, but just ramp it slow up from 65 onwards (past 23k gear for gods sake), but make the gear ever-so-slightly less incrementally each floor, so that my point above is achieved. The floors get harder, the gear gets better, but the difficultly is increased slightly more OVER the gear increase each time, making the gap between floors marginally wider each time.


If that exponential curve is done right, you could have an end game of a good few hundred floors, but making the last 10 or so truly difficult, thereby making all but impossible to max out. People would say "Floor 347 is the limit", then someone would beat it, and Floor 348 would then be assumed to be the limit. Someone might set a floor record that's never beaten, or is held for months, but what a cool accolade that would be.


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@Lawlta quote:
It's an active discussion, and was for this game mode.

So it is or it was, can't be both?


@Lawlta quote:
There's still iteration that can be done

Pro-tip for customer service: Don't use industry lingo when speaking to your customers. :)


@Lawlta quote:
we've got some things we're cooking up

Based on the last few updates, this fills me with dread rather than hope as it used to.


@Lawlta quote:
desires

I do not think that this word means what you think it means....

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I love DD2, I’ve been playing since the alpha days. Never considered myself a pro, but I can’t get past 57. Glitched a couple times and the some rough lane combos. I was so excited for the update... This just doesn’t seem to work or be worth it.  I’m setting the controller down for a while... This was rough.  I’m a huge fan and don’t mind dropping more $$ for some fun updates.  I’m still a huge fan, and look forward to some resolutions! I will tune back in for devstream!  🤞for 2018

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@Sarkhan Vol xbox quote:


@forgot_my_acct_name quote:

I just lost on map 3 from a lady orc running past my wall.  No longer am I wasting 8-10 minutes of my life due to this bug.  Now it's an hour.  This bug combined with the 3 map reset is not tolerable.  

Are you sure it wasn't a lane with Phasing buff?

 Don't get me wrong I have lost more than a few times to a lady Ork squeezing through a blockades somehow way before Onsluaght arrived. But in most occasions it's the Builders fault them Berserkers are crafty. 

 If your blockades are too close to a spawner they run right through it's taunt. But it's part of their Mechanic. You gotta put walls a little further down the lane if possible so they can Run up against it until their timed(I'm assuming cause combat all works off seconds) Jog wears off. Watch their animations. They run to a certain point down the lane if your wall is too close they keep running for a sec and can squeeze by if your not real carful on placements. Especially if placing wall at a curve in the lane.The Berserkers tend to cut corners or take the "inside line" of the curve. They been doin that since we first encountered them C4. Just be mindful of it!



Nah it wasn't a phase lane.  The bug happened in wave 3 and was fine for the first two waves.  The wall wasn't in any precarious place either.


My favorite lady orc bug is on one of the throne room levels where they have a tendency to run past your wall, destroy the window locks, then run back to your wall.

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Really don't think it's a bug. Berserkers are super crafty. You gotta be craftier. The window locks taunt and draw aggro. You gotta be even more careful with wall placements on the stairwell curves some lanes even though are only single are just so wide you might need 2 blockades to be safe. And with the Lava Orcs you gotta angle the barricade in front of window lock so that when Lava Orcs earthshatter tower-like attack goes through it, it's at an angle that misses the window lock. Or Hero kill them before they get to the bottom of the stairs.

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uhh... well if it's not a bug then I'm even less interested in playing the game because there was literally nothing risky about my wall placement.  It was in the center of a narrow lane in a straightaway ffs.  I couldn't have fit two walls side by side if I tried.  You mean to tell me this is intentional behavior?


And my wall placement on the throne room map was not on the curve either... it was just beyond (adjacent to) the area of effect for the suit of armor attack which seems like the place most begging to have a barricade on that level?  

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@forgot_my_acct_name quote:

uhh... well if it's not a bug then I'm even less interested in playing the game because there was literally nothing risky about my wall placement.  It was in the center of a narrow lane in a straightaway ffs.  I couldn't have fit two walls side by side if I tried.  You mean to tell me this is intentional behavior?


And my wall placement on the throne room map was not on the curve either... it was just beyond (adjacent to) the area of effect for the suit of armor attack which seems like the place most begging to have a barricade on that level?  

Definitely a bug.  There are documented cases of lady orcs literally leaping over walls, which is not intentional.

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