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Hom-Sha-Bom

Sad to say [every change since Trials update] isn't doing it for me

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Things I miss about DD2 before the Trials update:

  • The hero customization and specialization that was possible with Spheres & Passives
  • Frost Fire
  • Phoenix Flame/Luck
  • Serenity Auras
  • A reason to have all of the hero slots that I already paid for
  • Builder gear & Builder weapons
  • Being able to play any map on any difficulty
  • Being able to play incursions on any difficulty
  • Being able to play Onslaught to get a decent starter set of gear with passives for new heroes (whether newly released heroes, or just newly created)
  • Being able to play as Gun Witch (thanks to the terrible design of Assassins, I exclusively play as Abyss Lord to stun them off of me, and no I don't care if there are pet abilities or towers that can stun them off you for any hero. I used to be able to play as any DPS hero with any pet, that freedom is gone. And before anyone insists on telling me all the ways that assassins are easy to deal with, I already know that. Just because assassins are EASY to deal with does not mean they are good for the game.)
  • Daily Win Bonuses


Things that I like since the Trials update:

  • ...
  • Uhmmm...
  • Really struggling to think of even 1 thing...
  • Oh! Siege Rollers not instantly blowing up traps is cool.
  • And I guess it's not terrible that Harpy's Perch is actually somewhat usable now depending on which chaos tier you're in.


I know I'm not the only one who doesn't like Chaos Trials, but am I the only one who would go as far as to say DD2 was overall a better game on February 27th 2017, than it is today on October 20th, 2017? No, it wasn't perfect before. Yes, there were issues before. But overall the game was more enjoyable to play back then.

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I kind of agree, although passives could be a PITA, and I firmly believe shards can be better.

The lack of choice compounded by Mastery not being my cup of tea has removed me from the game almost entirely.

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@Fozzie quote:

I kind of agree, although passives could be a PITA, and I firmly believe shards can be better.

The lack of choice compounded by Mastery not being my cup of tea has removed me from the game almost entirely.

Yeah, progressing feels more like a chore than an adventure now. Do i want to do this map in a frantic state of rage trying to build 10 unique towers in a 30 second build phase? Definitely not, but my progress will be halted if i don't. 

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@Fozzie quote:

I kind of agree, although passives could be a PITA, and I firmly believe shards can be better.

The lack of choice compounded by Mastery not being my cup of tea has removed me from the game almost entirely.

What if we had a hybrid of how passives used to work and how shards work now? Like you'd need the gear to roll with the passive, but you could spend Gold/Defender Medals/Gems to upgrade the passive? There would still be some RNG to find the gear with the right stats and passives that you want, but there would be less RNG because you wouldn't have to worry about rolling a 7% Hearty Blockade and saying oh well even though everything else about this piece is perfect, it's totally useless because it's missing 3% of Hearty.

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I disagree on many of your points.

Gunwitch can stun Assassins off of yourself with Broomnado. It Drenches with a shard, and my Dracolich has storm damage. Just as Reliable as Abyss Lord, and I don't lose out on using the pet I want.

The passive system was complete garbage and made gear farming a nightmare. I am not at all sad to see it go. Shards probably need a rework of some kind, but I think they are just to invested in it at the moment.

I feel like customization is better right now. I feel like gear is better right now. I feel like shards are better than passives / spheres were, except the inventory management part of it.

However, I also miss Frost Fire. Making the Frostbite tower have 0 range was dumb. I also miss the freedom of map choice. Chaos Trials were overall a good idea but the execution left a lot to be desired. They honestly should just let you pick the first map then go into what we have now. This lets you pick a map you want to play if you are just feeling like a specific map, lets you pick an easy and consistent map during progress, but retains the "challenge" for repeat wins.


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@The Jason Order quote:

I disagree on many of your points.

Gunwitch can stun Assassins off of yourself with Broomnado. It Drenches with a shard, and my Dracolich has storm damage. Just as Reliable as Abyss Lord, and I don't lose out on using the pet I want. 

And I disagree with your points. A shard with a 25% chance for an ability to drench and then combo with a pet's attack is clearly not "just as reliable" as  a straight up guaranteed instant AoE stun 100% of the time. Because that's not what "just as reliable" means. 25 100.


@The Jason Order quote:

The passive system was complete garbage and made gear farming a nightmare. I am not at all sad to see it go. Shards probably need a rework of some kind, but I think they are just to invested in it at the moment. 

At least the passives system gave you a reason to keep playing. There is nothing to play for now after you get to C7 and unlock all the heroes. You're done. You beat the game. Time to go play something else. And I didnt claim passives were perfect. I even suggested a way they could have been better. And let's not pretend that farming for a specific shard is "fun" at all. Deadly Strikes and Defense Rate are pretty much required shards and if they're not dropping for someone, that is a nightmare to farm for.


@The Jason Order quote:

I feel like customization is better right now. I feel like gear is better right now. I feel like shards are better than passives / spheres were, except the inventory management part of it.

Huh? That is just not true. Spheres are almost the same as shards except you have to get lucky with shard drops and stick them in a relic and have to upgrade them. But you could pick out whichever spheres you wanted and stuck spheres in a generic UI slot and didn't have to upgrade. Most spheres were just straight up converted into shards. Shards that can only fit in a specific slot. So if that piece of gear is already using up all the slots, you can't add the shard that was converted from a sphere. Shards absolutely do not provide more customization than spheres. Because that's not how "more" works. Many shards are mandatory and there's very little flexibility in shard choice. And, if you read what I wrote, I said customization and specialization and the passives definitely made you more specialized. That's not even up for debate. You would have an apprentice with every weapon, armor, and relic slot being used solely to make your Frostbite towers stronger. Or a Huntress with every slot focused on Blaze Balloon.

You can disagree and say that you don't want specialization, but what you cannot say is that shards give you more customization and specialization than spheres & build passives.

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I hated the passive and sphere system and like the shard system. What I don't like is how we get the shards. why can't shards drop just like loot? Why do they have to pack this stupid shard victory pack that doesn't even follow it's own loot drop tables correctly.

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@Chappyy quote:

I hated the passive and sphere system and like the shard system. What I don't like is how we get the shards. shards drop just like loot? Why do they have to pack this stupid shard victory pack that doesn't even follow it's own loot drop tables correctly.

I don't understand how someone can like shards and hate spheres. How does that work? They were essentially the same thing except spheres weren't restricted to specific pieces of gear and didn't take up slots for other passives. You could actually choose which spheres you wanted to get instead of being assigned one by RNG. They didn't need to be upgraded after you got them.


Spheres were like everything that is good about shards, with none of the bad things about shards.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

I know I'm not the only one who doesn't like Chaos Trials, but am I the only one who would go as far as to say DD2 would be a better game if every single change since February didn't happen?

Then what do you think should come instead?

Of course, the most basic stuff is more maps & incursions, weapons, heroes, passives, skill spheres & campaign story (which I don't mind) But what's next?

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@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:
@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

I know I'm not the only one who doesn't like Chaos Trials, but am I the only one who would go as far as to say DD2 would be a better game if every single change since February didn't happen?

Then what do you think should come instead?

Of course, the most basic stuff is more maps & incursion, weapons, heroes, passives, skill spheres & campaign story (which I don't mind) But what's next?

An actual end game. We were told we would have an end game by now. In fact, Trendy constantly referred to the Trials update as "the end game update". But it didn't give us an end game.

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I don't have any problem with assassins with my dps EV2 at all. All my lanes has these "washer defenses", basically comprises of an oil geyser with stun, right in front of a spike blockade with sharpened spike. With these two, i usually wash them off without a problem. In fact after doing this I rarely got screwed/killed by any assassins. Maybe you would like to try doing what i did?

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@lesliesoon quote:

I don't have any problem with assassins with my dps EV2 at all. All my lanes has these "washer defenses", basically comprises of an oil geyser with stun, right in front of a spike blockade with sharpened spike. With these two, i usually wash them off without a problem. In fact after doing this I rarely got screwed/killed by any assassins. Maybe you would like to try doing what i did?

As I said, I don't have any problems killing assassins. They are easy get rid of. I just hate them and I don't want to deal with their stupid anti-fun mechanic so I use Abyss Lord to instantly get them off me.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:
@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:
@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

I know I'm not the only one who doesn't like Chaos Trials, but am I the only one who would go as far as to say DD2 would be a better game if every single change since February didn't happen?

Then what do you think should come instead?

Of course, the most basic stuff is more maps & incursion, weapons, heroes, passives, skill spheres & campaign story (which I don't mind) But what's next?

An actual end game. We were told we would have an end game by now. In fact, Trendy constantly referred to the Trials update as "the end game update". But it didn't give us an end game.

Yeah, that update, was supposed to be the endgame due to the infinite leveling but it backfired due to the "negative reception". So they have to make a new one.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:
@lesliesoon quote:

I don't have any problem with assassins with my dps EV2 at all. All my lanes has these "washer defenses", basically comprises of an oil geyser with stun, right in front of a spike blockade with sharpened spike. With these two, i usually wash them off without a problem. In fact after doing this I rarely got screwed/killed by any assassins. Maybe you would like to try doing what i did?

As I said, I don't have any problems killing assassins. They are easy get rid of. I just hate them and I don't want to deal with their stupid anti-fun mechanic so I use Abyss Lord to instantly get them off me.

And how do you do that? I haven't heard of any AL ability to be able to "insta-rid-off" assassins.

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@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:
@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:
@lesliesoon quote:

I don't have any problem with assassins with my dps EV2 at all. All my lanes has these "washer defenses", basically comprises of an oil geyser with stun, right in front of a spike blockade with sharpened spike. With these two, i usually wash them off without a problem. In fact after doing this I rarely got screwed/killed by any assassins. Maybe you would like to try doing what i did?

As I said, I don't have any problems killing assassins. They are easy get rid of. I just hate them and I don't want to deal with their stupid anti-fun mechanic so I use Abyss Lord to instantly get them off me.

And how do you do that? I haven't heard of any AL ability to be able to "insta-rid-off" assassins.

You haven't heard of Knight of the Abyss? It's a pretty cool ability. It's an AoE that lasts for some amount of time and stuns anything that enters it. When you hear the sound of an Assassin coming you cast it at your feet so when the assassin jumps on you it is also jumping in the AoE and it instantly gets stunned off of you.

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@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:
@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

An actual end game. We were told we would have an end game by now. In fact, Trendy constantly referred to the Trials update as "the end game update". But it didn't give us an end game.

Yeah, that update, was supposed to be the endgame due to the infinite leveling but it backfired due to the "negative reception". So they have to make a new one.

Wrong. They even called it "Trials: The Endgame Update" in the patch notes on the day it was released.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:
@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:
@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:
@lesliesoon quote:

I don't have any problem with assassins with my dps EV2 at all. All my lanes has these "washer defenses", basically comprises of an oil geyser with stun, right in front of a spike blockade with sharpened spike. With these two, i usually wash them off without a problem. In fact after doing this I rarely got screwed/killed by any assassins. Maybe you would like to try doing what i did?

As I said, I don't have any problems killing assassins. They are easy get rid of. I just hate them and I don't want to deal with their stupid anti-fun mechanic so I use Abyss Lord to instantly get them off me.

And how do you do that? I haven't heard of any AL ability to be able to "insta-rid-off" assassins.

You haven't heard of Knight of the Abyss? It's a pretty cool ability. It's an AoE that lasts for some amount of time and stuns anything that enters it. When you hear the sound of an Assassin coming you cast it at your feet so when the assassin jumps on you it is also jumping in the AoE and it instantly gets stunned off of you.

Nice! I hadn't know that the knight could do that. Thanks!

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:
@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:
@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

An actual end game. We were told we would have an end game by now. In fact, Trendy constantly referred to the Trials update as "the end game update". But it didn't give us an end game.

Yeah, that update, was supposed to be the endgame due to the infinite leveling but it backfired due to the "negative reception". So they have to make a new one.

Wrong. They even called it "Trials: The Endgame Update" on the day it was released.

I know that. I meant that it got the negative reception after it's release. The new one I was talking about is the upcoming endless mode.

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@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:

I know that. I mean the new one as the upcoming endless mode.

Well that was my point. I was asked what I wanted instead. I said I wanted an endgame update like we were told we were getting. The update on February 28th was supposed to be an Endgame update but we did not get an end game update on February 28th and in fact for a while any time someone on the forums referred to Chaos Trials as the end game, someone from Trendy would chime in and correct them and say that Chaos is not the Endgame. Even thought it was Trendy themselves who referred to it as the Endgame first.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:
@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:

I know that. I mean the new one as the upcoming endless mode.

Well that was my point. I was asked what I wanted. I said I wanted an endgame update like we were told we were getting. The update on February 28th was supposed to be an Endgame update but we did not get an end game update on February 28th and in fact for a while any time someone on the forums referred to Chaos Trials as the end game, someone from Trendy would chime in and correct them and say that Chaos is not the Endgame. Even thought it was Trendy themselves who referred to it as the Endgame first.

Wait, really? it's decided that Chaos Trials will not be the endgame that early?

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The passive system was horrible.  At the time you had to fight against so much RNG wIth mediocre gameplay.  The effort was 't worth the reward. The game is in a far better place atm.

The only problem I have with Trials is how you are forced to play maps you don't care about and you have to fish around until you get the desired map. That's not fun or in anyway a clever design.

It just annoys the player.

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TBH, I think trials would be fine if they got rid of the annoying mechanics/hard counters.  Changing the Cybork, Geode, Dark Assassin would make the trials so much more fun.  FYI, I don't find any of the trial enemies to be challenging, they are all simple to take care of.  The hard counters are just annoying, also including assassins in the annoyance because that is literally all they are, annoying.

I also don't understand why they would introduce a 'new' mode using the trials as a base for it when there are so many complaints about trials and how restrictive they are.  Not only that but introducing additional restrictions into the new mode and saying it is more 'challenging'.  More restrictions may introduce new challenges, but it takes even more fun out of the game when the game isn't even fun anymore.  To note, one of the big things that annoyed me with trials was having to go to C4 to farm the shards there and then to C3 to farm there and so on.  I couldn't just play C7 and get C4 shards or C3 shards, while farming for gear.  Would be awesome to set which shard tier I wanted to receive from the difficulty I should be farming, I.E. I am in C7 and set the shard drop to C4, so I am receiving C4 shards instead of C7, while being able to farm gear in C7.

More restrictions, to me, equals less fun in game.

I play DD2 to have fun and try and come up with crazy builds to get through maps, not being locked into using specific things to get through specific maps.  I find it funny when people complain that everyone uses the 'meta' and never does anything else.  The reason that happens is because of the restrictions set upon the players.  The 'Meta' is there because the mobs on that difficulty restrict the usage of other defenses.  Now with mastery the 'meta' changes from map to map because of the extra restrictions, but it is still there.  What works best in the difficulty with the restrictions set by the map will be the meta, for that difficulty/map combo.

I have to agree with the OP, for the most part.  Most of the changes that have happened have not increased the amount of fun I have had with the game.


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I'm just going to be neutral with this thread as those stuff might be cool to be back, I don't think most will be back.

But I'm just going to put my thoughts on two things :

  • The stuff that I'm really hoping to be back is the serenity aura as that was actually a cool defense.
  • The stuff that I would rather not be back is each hero's speciality on a single thing. I would prefer using a single hero on everything he/she had.
I am aware that the Trials, Chaos difficulties and shards are not prefect and I believe they have the potential to be something better.

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For the first time in like three years, I agree completely with HSB.

I originally left shortly before EV2 came out because I was out of things to do. Came back in August, slogged through Trials, and since Mastery isn't cutting it for me, have uninstalled until December or so (hopefully only until then).

Shards are neat, but I preferred Spheres as well. I technically don't *need* more shards, I have my bases covered with most any build I would want to do on a map. However, I don't have *enough* to just outfit everyone at once, so I have to play the shard-swapping minigame and inventory management, which is a dumpster full of hot garbage. I liked the proposed solution of being able to get C4 shard drop tables if playing C7, and that would have honestly kept me around a little longer. 

If I was able to play a map that gave me potential gear rewards, I wouldn't have been as livid about looking for specific shards, but as it stands I would have to go to C1, C3, or C4 to get shards for characters while falling asleep at my keyboard because of the lack of effort needed to do the map and knowing that I would get absolutely nothing as far as gear and xp was concerned. That's not good, and while getting some of the spheres back in the day, like Flamethrower, was annoying as all-get-out, it still gave you a goal you could work towards on any map or difficulty.

The game was more fun when I left it the first time than last night when I uninstalled it. Getting my 299% NM4 Serenity with all the other gear I needed took a lot of time, but was super rewarding to complete. If Trendy released 4 new heroes TODAY, I could just swap a few of my older C7 capped legendaries on them, throw a few Deadly Strikes/Power Transfer on some relics, and they'd be ready to go for C7 and I *MIGHT* have one or two specific shards I really want for them. You know that a hero-based Tower Defense game has reached an extremely unhealthy point when the prospect of 4 new heroes would provide a player with nothing new to work for aside from the 1-2 C7 maps it would take to level them to 50.

I hold out hope for this game, which is why I will still linger around the forums waiting and hoping that the Endgame content is enough to keep me hooked, but more and more I look longingly at the Steam Store wishing there was a competitor game in the spirit of this genre other than OMD:U to scratch this itch.

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