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Demarki

Regarding the Lab Assault controversy through the eyes of a new player

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I started playing this game a month ago and I have already invested 160+ hours into it. Even though I love this game I have to admit that it's hard and demanding towards new players that want to progress and eventually reach end game. I had to read a ton of guides, watch dozens of videos on YouTube, read multiple discussions on the forums and Reddit in order to realize how to beat specific maps, which hero abilities are good, the synergies between towers/buffs/auras, which weapons and pets are worth farming and how to upgrade them, how to gain XP and farm for loot more efficiently etc... the game really doesn't give new players anything on the platter and I am pretty sure most new players that don't want to invest much time and effort will simply lose interest and quit the game after a while.


So here I am, struggling to level my characters to 74 since leveling after 70 is so damn slow, all of them wearing Godly gear since I have barely found any mythical items and having a couple crappy accessories with ridiculously low stats(even negative ones). I am at the point where I can farm the normal campaign maps on insaneHC, but the newer campaign and bonus maps kick my ass even on medium/hard.


The best "trick" I read about in order to farm some Mythical gear was to complete the first wave in Endless Spires on NM/HC and loot the 4 chests for a chance at low level Mythicals, that gave an average of 2 items per 10 minutes so I was kinda fed up and bored with this method.


I noticed so many discussions about Lab Assault and how easy and fast it is to farm for high quality gear and most importantly accessories which had been a pain to find, so I gave it a shot and was getting my ass kicked even on easy. I read that you can exploit this map and farm it extremely easy by using a BF Drill weapon. Not only you can destroy the cores from a safe distance by avoiding all defenses, but you can also force the EVs to commit suicide by spamming this weapon near them. Made zero sense to me that this was even possible and not hotfixed, but since everyone was farming the map this way I had no choice but to follow if I wanted to progress quick and with a fraction of the effort required.


So I tried Volcanic Eruption, got my ass kicked, read guides, watched videos about it and after a couple hours I managed to complete it on Hard! I got a mediocre BF Drill that can barely kill a crystal after 50 shots on insane, but that was more than enough to get me started doing Lab Assault. 


I equipped my BF Drill and tried Lab Assault on easy, medium, hard - beat them all on first try. During those 15 minutes I already farmed more accessories I have ever found before and all of them being Mythical-Transcendent quality!!! I couldn't believe how ridiculously easy it was. Then I tried Insane and guess what? I beat it as well...on the first try! My BF Drill took a lot of shots to kill the crystals but I didn't care, I was doing it from a safe spot. As for the EVs, I only had to kill the last one standing, 19 out of 20 just jumped to their deaths while I was spamming on the conveyor belt. I couldn't believe my eyes as I was suddenly looting Supreme and Transcendent items for the first time as well as a TON of accessories...


Ok, let's get serious now. This is a joke. Even though I was getting so much loot so easily, it didn't feel right. It felt like I was abusing an in-game bug and that I just didn't deserve to get so much high quality loot for close to zero effort and time I invested. 


I have 160 hours invested into this game and I have put so much effort on many maps and challenges only to get some crap in return, the time and effort investment to reward ratio was very low in almost most maps except for Lab Assault, so I feel kinda forced to keep farming this place for high quality gear, pets and accessories. Is there a point farming anything else unless I am looking for a map specific reward?


My suggestions:

1) I have to apologize for my whiny last post on the removal of map specific accessories from Lab Assault. I had no idea how ridiculously easy and fast you could farm this map, makes me wonder why I wasting so much time farming other maps for much fewer (and weaker) rewards per time invested. This has to be done else all those other great maps will stay obsolete.


2) Either hotfix the EVs so that they no longer jump to their death or make the cores IMMUNE to the BF drill damage. Just because this weapon allows you to bypass the whole map's defenses and force the boss to commit suicide while sitting on the conveyor belt spamming it makes zero sense to me, how did you guys allow this to happen for so long?


TLDR: 160 hours in and I barely had any Mythical gear and crappy accessories. Got a BF drill and I am able to farm 6+ Mythical/Trancendent/Supreme/Ultimate(!!!) items and accessories every 5 minutes by cheesing Lab Assault on insaneHC. Makes zero ***ing sense to me.

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The Beginning of the game is pretty hard, i agree But you dont have to farm Lab Assault. You can start And try to play some Survivals On Insane difficulty. Maybe Deeper well? its been a long time since i Started from nothing. The Endless Spires Method for farming myth gear is pretty boring yeah, But its going to help you progress if you Are getting a good piece. might take a while. Maybe you find some people who are in the same spot and could group up together, or just ask some Older Players to help you. I personally Remember i farmed glitterhelm alot early on. Till i had all characters to lvl 74 pretty much. Throne room Insane Surv can dropp some ok stuff aswell


If You want Any Help feel free to Add me on steam and we can see what we can do.


Also Sorry for bad English. my english sucks

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@Travence ツ quote:

You can start And try to play some Survivals On Insane difficulty. Maybe Deeper well? its been a long time since i Started from nothing. The Endless Spires Method for farming myth gear is pretty boring yeah, But its going to help you progress if you Are getting a good piece. might take a while. Maybe you find some people who are in the same spot and could group up together, or just ask some Older Players to help you. I personally Remember i farmed glitterhelm alot early on. Till i had all characters to lvl 74 pretty much. Throne room Insane Surv can dropp some ok stuff aswell

Thanks but I don't see myself playing survival ever again(unless I am after the survival pet) and spending 1+ hour per run in order to get a couple Mythical items and one accessory at best.

Just look at the bigger picture here, after 160 hours into the game I had ZERO Mythical accessories and ZERO Transcendent/Supreme/Ultimate gear.

After farming Lab Assault insane for just 2 hours I looted 20+ Mythical/Transcendent/Supreme accessories and tons of Mythical/Transcendent/Supreme weapons and armor. All that loot within 2 hours of spamming BF drill on a conveyor belt, just making that statement is embarrassing enough, yet so many people have been farming endgame gear like this for so long and the developers haven't done much to address the issue.

It's really a shame but I don't see myself farming anything else until all my characters are decked in gear.

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If you see yourself dont farming Anyone else besides lab. Why are you even making this post? Lab Is Kinda op. everyone knows that ;D


Alot of the good Armor dropps Come from Survivals btw. especially If you have low stats You gotta find uppgrades pretty fast

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No need to apologize about your last post; it had some valid points in it that the game needs to address at some point or another. DD really is a game with a steep learning curve in it.

If you want to try to make leveling go a bit faster, have you tried running the first wave of Nightmare maps? Since they won't have ogres it's possible you can get some good experience off of it. Tinkerer's Lab campaign gives over 1 milliion exp on the first wave alone if you can beat it, then restart.

Regarding survivals, you will likely start running them again in the future, as Moonbase survival is now the meta armor farming map. While Lab Assault is a great armor source, it kinda kills a part of you. I know of at least 3 people who have left the game because they burnt themselves out on that map.

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Accessories are EXTREMELY rare to get as a survival drop past myth. you don't ever run survivals in the hopes of getting accessories. Unfortunately accessories are locked to end game nightmare maps basically for good ones. Lab is litterally the earliest you can get accessories with 100+ stat rolls on them. Survival accessories no matter which map will never get that high. They top out in the 50's/ 60's  even on embermount nightmare survival.

Unfortunately insane survival is pretty lousy for armor the late waves will drop a ton of myth armor but usually with stats in the 40-60's max. That includes end game map survivals on insane and not only early ones.

Yeah lab was mainly run cause you had no alternatives for time spent for ult or better armor (4/6 player lab farming that is not solo). But survivals did actually get buffed on the last cdt update. but you have to be running nightmare survival before you start to see that. But you're right at the point where you're trying to break into nightmare and that is a really big jump in difficulty.

Once you're actually able to run maps on nightmare myth gear becomes insanely common that you'll get sick of it very fast. Which is WAY easier to get into nightmare thanks to running moonbase campaign. it gives you a pet that litterally allows you to skip running insane survivals just to get giraffes on your tower toons to prep for running nightmare maps on easy difficulty. Fish in a bowl. Which once you get a few on easy you should be able to handle the map then on medium to get even better ones. It litterally skips trying to break into nightmare super slowly.

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1) I have to apologize for my whiny last post on the removal of map specific accessories from Lab Assault. I had no idea how ridiculously easy and fast you could farm this map, makes me wonder why I wasting so much time farming other maps for much fewer (and weaker) rewards per time invested. This has to be done else all those other great maps will stay obsolete.

Told you! It makes farming other maps a joke, specifically high-end accessories from maps like ToL, GTH2, WW/SN, CD, Palantir. But no need to apologize, I very well knew where you were coming from and without knowing how bad Lab Assault is for this game and its progression you had every right to be upset over it. But now you know too why that decision was taken!

2) Either hotfix the EVs so that they no longer jump to their death or make the cores IMMUNE to the BF drill damage. Just because this weapon allows you to bypass the whole map's defenses and force the boss to commit suicide while sitting on the conveyor belt spamming it makes zero sense to me, how did you guys allow this to happen for so long?

Lab assault HAS ALWAYS BEEN BROKEN LIKE THIS SINCE RELEASE. When the BF Drill exploit was found, since then most of us have complained about it being broken as f**k. Trendy didn't bother. And by the time CDT was formed it was too late to do anything major, nor were there enough people to suggest alternates without facing severe community backlash. And don't worry, a lot of people have suggested what you have, but sadly any major fix to it won't happen.

I quit the game a couple of weeks after Lab Assault was released. I got back only last year, and one of the few things I can take credit for is gather people to have at least the top-end accessories be removed from Lab Assault when I made this thread(do read it). Which lead to the decision of removal of some accs from Lab Assault(do read this too). And I can't give enough thanks to people who supported that decision. Even then some people were unhappy. So imagine how any decision to fix the EVs or Armor drops from it would've been received. :-)
Anyways, be glad the top-end accessories were removed from it. Had it been totally upto me, I'd have removed Armor from it from rolling above Godly. That would "fix" this bulls**t map. But I'll take whatever can get this map fixed even a little bit.

It being broken as hell is pretty much the reason I've not farmed this map for my gear(specifically top-end accs and Sup/Ult Armor), even though I very well could. It makes ZERO SENSE to have this map reward so much for so little effort ESPECIALLY IN THIS GAME. :-)

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I'll make a new post about this instead of just editing this in the above post.

You said, Endless Spires wave 1 repeat is boring, I agree. However once you get a few starter Myth sets, you can start with Mistrymire or Glitterm Helm and do those maps on survival or just Wave 1 and upgrade your gear. Once you hit 1 to 1.5K stats on your builders, it will be enough to do Misty Campaign and survival till a few waves. Then you can grind for more gear. 
Early game is a grind until you reach 2K stats. after that you can do a variety of maps and focus on your DPS etc. 

This game does have a hard learning and progression curve. But once past that its nice, fast easy and more importantly fun. 
At the end of the day this is at its core a farming/grinding game. There's bound to be repetition and where there's repetition there's boredom.

Edit just forgot adding this:

So progression ladder looks somewhat like this(All NM or even NMHC):

  1. Endless Spires / Ramparts Wave 1 Grind
  2. Magus Quarters Survival Grind after beating it on NMHC, easily doable with 600-700 stats.
  3. Base Campaign on NMHC Grind a few times.
  4. Alchemical Lab or Hall of Court Survival Grind a few Times.
  5. Mistymire Campaign once you get around 1.5K Stats and have 1 decent Monk DPS.
  6. Misty Campaign for a few good Weapon Drops for DPS/Tower too.
  7. Misty Survival early waves for getting above 1.5-2K stats on all chars towers+DPS.
  8. Moraggo Campaign to upgrade weapons.
  9. Moraggo survival till possible for more armor and tower weapon upgrades.
  10. Aquanos Campaign to unlock Survival Mode. Campaign Boss will be hardest you will face for now.
  11. Aquanos Campaign to get the Seahorse pet, best pet for early to medium progression.
  12. Aquanos survival to upgrade armor a bit more.
  13. Kings Game campaign to unlock the survival.
  14. Kings Game survival to get more armor.
  15. Moment you have above 2.5K stats on builders and DPS, start trying out some high end maps like Sky City, Akatiti, Moonbase etc. to get yourself ready for End Game content, because you are pretty much there.

#1 to #5 will be the most boring and tedious part of this ladder, beyond that its nice and easy.

And in between all this some XP levelling from Tavern Defense too to be able to wear certain armor and weapons which are level restricted.

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@Black Mamba quote:
  1. Mistymire Campaign once you get around 1.5K Stats and have 1 decent Monk DPS.

Thanks for your tips! Why do you mention Monk DPS specifically? I am using a ranged Jester for DPS and upgrading and I also leveled a Barbarian to 72 - assuming he was the top melee DPS.

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Because Monk is easily the best early game DPS toon. Can heal and boost -- towers and heroes(including himself). The damage boost to both Towers and Heroes is far too good to give up that early in the game. For upgrading yes the Jester is good, but early game I really don't suggest making a Jester or for that matter a Barbarian as your primary DPS especially for Boss Battles and harder maps for your level as they won't be as "overall efficient" as the Monk.
A  monk with a Fire Dragon or a Laser Bot is pretty much lethal and will make your life easier while progressing through the toughest phases of this game's progression ladder.

Also in case you didn't know this, on your Jester don't use a Huntress or Monk ranged weapon if you want the most DPS. In-game code the Jester is marked as an Apprentice, and hence Apprentice Weapons scale 100% on a Jester whereas the rest Classes weps scale like 50% or something, not sure on the exact number right now.
But yeah you get the point. Jester -- just use Apprentice Weapons for DPS and a Lupine Gun for Mana Collection(read: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=150195137 ). You can also just ignore the Lupine Gun if you have the recent event item called Gaia's Last Wish.

Refer this guide for more -- http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=273293575

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Also Theres no top DPS Hero, All Dps heros are good in different situations. :) But i Agree with Mambo. Monk Dps is pretty good. :) Especially if you can get a Seahorse Early on.

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@Demarki quote:

2) Either hotfix the EVs so that they no longer jump to their death or make the cores IMMUNE to the BF drill damage. Just because this weapon allows you to bypass the whole map's defenses and force the boss to commit suicide while sitting on the conveyor belt spamming it makes zero sense to me, how did you guys allow this to happen for so long?


TLDR: 160 hours in and I barely had any Mythical gear and crappy accessories. Got a BF drill and I am able to farm 6+ Mythical/Trancendent/Supreme/Ultimate(!!!) items and accessories every 5 minutes by cheesing Lab Assault on insaneHC. Makes zero ***ing sense to me.

Issue with fixing these issues is that Nightmare is quite literally impossible no matter what gear you have unless due to pets not being allowed to attack or anything (of which pets have wall hacks so they would kill the crystals through walls in that case).


Although you are right about it taking a lot of learning to figure out how to get the best gear and also a lot of grinding (which speeds up dramatically) to get "good" (low end to most players) gear.

Also accessories can really only be farmed on Lab Assault and a few other maps sadly.


Really though this is just a mess Trendy left us with after releasing the incredibly imbalanced Nightmare mode (not really at first) and corresponding gear to go with it making once the best gear in the game barely be able to beat nightmare on many maps. There's not much you can really do about it though now other than making tweaks to allow getting to nightmare easier but really once you get to 1k stats through a fish and some semi-decent gear on your characters farming becomes incredibly easy and you're granted the ability to defeat most maps. Once you get to 2k-2.5k (granted you have decent side stats) you can beat literally everymap with the exception of like 3 and a fair few survival maps.


Edit: The actual main reason most people quit the game (in my experience) is that they DON'T want to learn any of this stuff and joined a Tavern Defense game and got leveled up to like level 80 on like 2 chars within a few hours and have low end Myth gear on those chars and complain about how they can't farm any maps for better gear.

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@Fatheredpuma81 quote:

Issue with fixing these issues is that Nightmare is quite literally impossible no matter what gear you have unless due to pets not being allowed to attack or anything (of which pets have wall hacks so they would kill the crystals through walls in that case).


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@Plane quote:


Okay now do it like he said? Not using any "glitches"? Meaning: Kill all EV's (not have them commit suicide), don't AOE kill crystal, and don't use the traps doing no damage glitch...

He didn't actually state the traps doing no damage glitch but I assume that's also one of them that he wanted to be patched.

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I'm uploading another video.  I skipped the ESTs this time, although it didn't change much :)  It's been so long I forgot about the trap glitch, but it doesn't really affect difficulty, just saves a few seconds here and there.  The new video is basically the same TBH, I already DPSed almost all the EVs and shot at the crystals with my sceptre.

And I didn't use a drill to kill any crystals or make any of them jump off, but it's pretty hard to prevent 100% of them from killing themselves.  This time we got 19/20, but the last one killed itself before our very eyes . . . tragic!

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@Fatheredpuma81 quote:

Okay now do it like he said? Not using any "glitches"? Meaning: Kill all EV's (not have them commit suicide), don't AOE kill crystal, and don't use the traps doing no damage glitch...

He didn't actually state the traps doing no damage glitch but I assume that's also one of them that he wanted to be patched.

To me this looks like you're trying to find problems with the video since someone proved you wrong. It's not literally impossible to do it, but since you can't do it, it must be.

It takes about 1/2 of the effort if instead of a barb the second player goes with a monk with 1k + hero boost

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EDIT: We just did it again, this time with no wheel.  I used adept to kill two of the cores while Inferno got the other two with barb :)  No bugs...

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I think you guys are missing the point by several miles and trying to prove a non-existent point.

What I gather from Demarki and @FatheredPuma's concern is, that other methods(which quite honestly people have used before the BF Drill exploit was found) are simply not as feasible and not as "f**king" easy as standing on a ledge and shooting green things till you die out of boredom to get an easy-peasy supply of drops.

I suppose no one here has heard of the term "exaggeration" or even "hyperbole"?
I mean... of course its not impossible, it has never been "literally impossible".
"Literally" my fsecond or was it third NMHC Lab Assault attempt back in 2013 was with friends -- Jemma, Shin, Middo, JohnNo and randoms. We've done this map using heroes like Barbs, Huntresses and Monks, its not a big deal with stats once you know what to do and where to go.

I think the point they were trying to make is, would you use the dumb BF-Drill method or anything else to farm a clearly exploitable map to farm easy-peasy gear? I'd personally have to be a total buffoon to use any other method -- which is not the BF-Drill and EV fall exploit -- to play this map with an intent to farm gear on it.

I also not understanding the point of what is being achieved in uploading videos showing that the map can be done without BF drill and without using the EV fall exploit. Of course it can be done, has been done. Passively mocking someone for simply stating "its literally impossible to do" is taking things a bit too far.

Guess since everyone is busy proving a non existing point, I'll might as well share an old video of me exploiting this dumb map --


Enjoy. Duh.

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??  Not sure why the hostility.  It sounded to me, and still sounds to me, like he thought it actually wasn't possible.  I run into people in pubs all the time who think it's not possible to DPS the EVs or shoot the cores without using a drill, so I'm used to showing people that you actually can. 

No comment on Lab being broken.  It obviously is, but that's been discussed to death, and the community doesn't want to do what I want to do, so there's no point in me saying it anymore.

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A valid point is that many maps give very low rewards for the time and effort they take. And lab rewards being broken is something I've heard a lot over the years. I've always been a much bigger fan of survivals and before moonbase half my sup/ult armors were still from running kings game nmhcmm dozens of times. But it is a fact that you need to know what maps give the best rewards and what maps you need to farm for certain stuff or you end up playing a lot of time without getting any upgrades.

I agree with the jump in difficulty from insane to nightmare, but I've played from 0 to endgame 3 times and agree with some others here i's quite doable. I do remember how hard that first time was not really knowing what the best approach was. The last time was quite recently on my old computer with a new steam account used for playing on lan. Knowing what to do got me to ultimate defender achieve in 145 hours played, getting a little help a few times playing public games. (No afk shop purchases, I'm still too paranoid about buying hacked hear)

Using Mambo's list of maps will get you there for sure, looks a lot like my first 2 playthroughs. That last playthrough I tried moonbase very early, just after completing my earliest myth sets. Playing moonbase at lower difficulty and getting fishies on my builders helped a lot in progression. It's a very good allround map on campaign for xp and weaps as well. With my low stats build I completed the nm version at ~1200 stats for the first time. But I cannot recommend doing that super efficient route on a first playthrough. It's much more fun doing all those early maps at their 'normal' difficulty level, rather than running them with OP stats. Same with dedicated leveling, just play maps you like and xp will build up eventually. All those tavern defense pure strat runs are boring, boring and even more boring.   

 



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@Plane quote:

I'm uploading another video.  I skipped the ESTs this time, although it didn't change much :)  It's been so long I forgot about the trap glitch, but it doesn't really affect difficulty, just saves a few seconds here and there.  The new video is basically the same TBH, I already DPSed almost all the EVs and shot at the crystals with my sceptre.

And I didn't use a drill to kill any crystals or make any of them jump off, but it's pretty hard to prevent 100% of them from killing themselves.  This time we got 19/20, but the last one killed itself before our very eyes . . . tragic!



?? Not sure why the hostility. It sounded to me, and still sounds to me, like he thought it actually wasn't possible. I run into people in pubs all the time who think it's not possible to DPS the EVs or shoot the cores without using a drill, so I'm used to showing people that you actually can.  




No comment on Lab being broken. It obviously is, but that's been discussed to death, and the community doesn't want to do what I want to do, so there's no point in me saying it anymore.

The point was using another AOE weapon that can reach the crystals and other various glitches is just as bad as using the BF Drill and normal glitches. I was also more or less saying that it was impossible without using glitches (glitches things not intended by the developer to happen) to beat the time limit (not the EV's or anything) of which my friend proved me wrong shortly after I said that.


@Thaleskpl quote:
To me this looks like you're trying to find problems with the video since someone proved you wrong. It's not literally impossible to do it, but since you can't do it, it must be. 


It takes about 1/2 of the effort if instead of a barb the second player goes with a monk with 1k + hero boost

No I already know I am wrong. Haven't tried to do lab normally in a very long time and overestimated it quite a bit. My friend actually proved me wrong by doing it without using any glitches anyways.




Off topic side note: i'm seriously getting tired of using these insanely poorly made forums and their insane bugs that keep ruining my replies and attempting to get me to double post repeatedly >.>. Quite frustrating.

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