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MaJean

Infinite Onslaught -thoughts.

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(This is just thoughts for the devs to consider, while working on endgame for us. I know no details can be revealed yet, so there is no expectation that the devs will comment any of this, but who knows, we might still be able to influence the devs and the final game.)


When I read what Isom described about Onslaught in another thread, I was a little concerned. He mentioned that the new Onslaught, coming by the end of the year, will be infinite, or near infinite. Does this sound good to anybody? It makes me a little nervous... 

What I hope not: 

I can only guess, as no details have been released, but to me it sounds like you pick a map and then keep doing the same map with the same initial setup, with increasingly tougher enemies, basically  -forever. If this is the case, I wonder if there will be any strategy in this... WIll round 284 of Onslaught be any different than round 184? I really don´t want to be doing 300+ waves of the same map.

What I hope:

That by "Infinite" they mean that Onslaught will have a handful of difficulties, no more, and what´s more important; each difficulty customizable with numerous modifiers to add or remove at the expense/chance for greater rewards, so the possibilities in turn will be "Infinite", and the rewards would be "Infinite".  I hope it´s more wide/shallow than narrow/deep, so it´s more different ways to do the maps, instead of just more waves in the maps. 

More earnable titles, weapons and pets is a must, and please make some that are ultra rare, to keep us hooked. (think lost-to-never-be-found rarity)


I probably will return with more thoughts.

M.


EDIT: As to eliminate more misconceptions, I just wanna state that this is a well meaning thread, just some thoughts that I wanted to express, about the upcoming Onslaught mode, which I am still hyped for (even though slightly concerned, hence the thread)! 

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It's hard to judge it with out knowing exactly how it's going to being offered to us.

As it stands though and what it sounds like....

No you aren't the only one worried about more difficulties and farming the same stage over and over. The reward would have to be down right amazing and I mean call into work because you have come down with a case of dungeondefenderitis amazing to keep people hooked if that's the plan.

Infinite waves is what killed Onslaught for me. It was just so damn boring and the scaling of enemies was non existant. 

What made survival so much fun in DD1 is that you had a variety of maps, different rewards and you could pick the modifiers to tailor the game how you wanted to play.Not to mention a reasonable time frame of 30 waves to complete. Which you could also start at any wave you last cleared, which was perfect for people that just wanted to even play for abit just to scratch that itch after grinding their ass off to get there.

I keep wrapping my head around who's making the choices sometimes at Trendy I really do. I mean you had the winning formula with survival mode and yet rather than improving on the formula you go in a complete different direction.

Near infinite is the only hope I have since personally endless mode is just zzzzzzz.

Like I said these are early days, but I'm skeptical.

Again for anyone who just doesn't get what I'm saying, this is constructive criticism. Not a bash at Trendy.

Speaking of which, kudos to [[4370,users]] coming out and breaking the info drought. Now people have something specific to look forward to.

Let's be realistic though. I don't think we have any chance in changing what Trendy has planned for Onslaught 2.0 before it debuts no matter what feedback we give out. However sometimes thing just have to be said.

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@specialK quote:

Seriously give it a rest. It is not out yet and you are whining already?

Thank you for that insight. I wasn´t aware that my post was whiney. You are very special indeed. 

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@KnowsNoLimits quote:

Let's be realistic though. I don't think we have any chance in changing what Trendy has planned for Onslaught 2.0 before it debuts no matter what feedback we give out. However sometimes thing just have to be said.

You are right, but come release day, I don´t wanna feel like we should have said something earlier, even if it changes things, or notsquire_small.png

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I agree we need to voice concerns over any infinite or very long game modes.

It was the only thing DDE did right it set a limit on the survival mode and you knew you had that time limit to complete the objectives.

Endless modes massively favours hardcore gamers with less limitations on their time, casual gamers like me will not have the time to do any endless modes.

In DD1 there was a wave limit there was a reward at wave 15 and again at 25 or sometimes later for dlc maps.

I suggest the difficulty ramp should be geared towards a limited wave number and a fixed reward for waves 15 and 25. 

Effectively gives us DD1 survival with a DD2 twist, it wasn't broken do t try and fix it.

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I hope the waves increase in intensity through time and have rare drops too, as you said. It would be pretty boring if wave 20 was the same as wave 80. There should be more mobs or something through time or even crazy 'boss waves' where only bosses spawn and no mobs.

@specialK quote:

Seriously give it a rest. It is not out yet and you are whining already?

All you do is whine about other people whining.

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@specialK quote:

Seriously give it a rest. It is not out yet and you are whining already?

While true (and got a laugh from me), we already had an infinite onslaught and it was more a pain in the ass than an actual rewarding/fun game mode. Re-implementing the same game mode with a few tweaks and leaving what made the mode so annoying isn't going to fix it.

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all I hope is that we get checkpoints, please god give us checkpoints.

If we reached wave 384 before I don't want to start all over from wave 1 again.

I realise you can't just start where you left off but having checkpoints every 50 or 100 waves would surely help with keeping people motivated to play it. Having to go through 5 hours of low waves everytime even when they give you nothing of value would be the worst system ever.

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@Agronic quote:

all I hope is that we get checkpoints, please god give us checkpoints.

If we reached wave 384 before I don't want to start all over from wave 1 again.

I realise you can't just start where you left off but having checkpoints every 50 or 100 waves would surely help with keeping people motivated to play it. Having to go through 5 hours of low waves everytime even when they give you nothing of value would be the worst system ever.

Sorry, but I don't agree with this. If you want to get wave's 384 goodies, you should have to reach 384 again from scratch. You shouldn't even be able to get to wave 100 if you ask me (not that it's impossible) but because it'll hopefully be very very hard. It'd be cool if they added some other stuff into this gamemode like upgrading of map environmental traps or something.

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@ally quote:


@Agronic quote:

all I hope is that we get checkpoints, please god give us checkpoints.

If we reached wave 384 before I don't want to start all over from wave 1 again.

I realise you can't just start where you left off but having checkpoints every 50 or 100 waves would surely help with keeping people motivated to play it. Having to go through 5 hours of low waves everytime even when they give you nothing of value would be the worst system ever.

Sorry, but I don't agree with this. If you want to get wave's 384 goodies, you should have to reach 384 again from scratch. You shouldn't even be able to get to wave 100 if you ask me (not that it's impossible) but because it'll hopefully be very very hard.

For once, I agree with this. You want the good loot, work for it.

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@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:

For once, I agree with this. You want the good loot, work for it.

Also, starting at wave 50 with T1 defenses would hopefully be so hard that you'd get demolished anyway, so it would essentially be pointless. I'm just really curious to see what kind of stuff they have in the game mode. 

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@ally quote:


@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:

For once, I agree with this. You want the good loot, work for it.

Also, starting at wave 50 with T1 defenses would hopefully be so hard that you'd get demolished anyway, so it would essentially be pointless. I'm just really curious to see what kind of stuff they have in the game mode. 

Same here. Hopefully new difficulties too, as in something different from Chaos. Something that gives the pow!

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I'm just hyped for something else to do in the game really. My biggest complaint with this game is that there is just not much to do. You beat the campaign, which is fairly short, and then you do trials up to Chaos 7. There you do more trials matches until you get bored and leave. Incursions are intended to be played once or a couple times. All we do is trials all day every day. In that regard I really don't care what problems it brings since we are getting something to do other than trials.

Not to imply that there is anything wrong with having this discussion: I'm just saying that whatever this mode turns out to be it will be a positive thing overall. Hype!

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Pretty sure he was not talking about infinite match lengths. 

More infinite in the way, we progress through it and it gets harder and we get stronger kind of deal.

They have already said Onslaught 2.0 will not be like Onslaught. So it's a pretty weird assumption you are making.

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@PandynatorDD quote:

Pretty sure he was not talking about infinite match lengths. 

More infinite in the way, we progress through it and it gets harder and we get stronger kind of deal.

They have already said Onslaught 2.0 will not be like Onslaught. So it's a pretty weird assumption you are making.

Well we don´t know do we? Nothing wrong with airing one´s thoughts before such a big release I think... Besides, I wasn´t assuming, but rather talking about what I hope it´s going to be versus not going to be...

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Well, near infinite or infinite would be rather boring if its just "oh no the enemies are slightly stronger". I would rather that every wave has a random condition thrown at you to make it interesting.  Some examples of this would be the following:


Enemies can now one hit kill Heroes(regardless of stats)

Enemies now move 5 times faster

Enemies are immune to (insert defense/tower name here)

Ramster Wave

Bombs randomly spawn on the map

Jester shows up and changes all of your defenses when the wave starts

Defense speed reduced to 1/4

Boss Rush

All enemies now drain health from defenses/towers and heroes

Clouds of poison appear and increase in size and damage though out the wave

No mana wave(no mana drops and mana on the hero is now 0)

No AFK(if you stand still your health is drained and if killed by this you will not respawn until the wave is over)

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Personally, I do not mind the idea of an 'endless' mode as long as there is an incentive to keep going.  As for the rewards and the difficulty a steady increase in both would be great in my eyes.  Eventually your defenses will fail and you will know your limit, but beings you can keep getting gear from the mode you can overcome the limit.  As in a 5 wave system, I get anywhere from 0-3 legends a run, I would expect about the same drop rate, which means at the 'limit' I may or may not get the upgrades I need, which would require me to farm a bit before the increase happens.

That being said, I would not like to get to wave xxx and for time constraints quit, come back later and have to restart at wave 1.  Would assume a checkpoint every 10 or 20 waves, with a boss to clear at the specific wave would be pretty awesome.  Makes sure you aren't afking through it all.  I would also expect that the 'checkpoints' being restart areas would have us start with a decent amount of mana for the wave we are on.  I know starting wave 15 or 20 (can't remember the checkpoint for DD1) you got a lot of extra mana to put some upgrades into the towers (not enough to T5 everything, more often it was enough to T2-3 most).

Just a few thoughts of what I think/expect.

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@PandynatorDD quote:

Pretty sure he was not talking about infinite match lengths. 

More infinite in the way, we progress through it and it gets harder and we get stronger kind of deal.

They have already said Onslaught 2.0 will not be like Onslaught. So it's a pretty weird assumption you are making.

I am going to agree with this. I've always thought it sounded like they were working towards a key/rift system (maybe the teaser was even a key), i.e. Diablo 3, where you work your way up to higher and higher scaling difficulties. But I could be wrong, and maybe they are going with more of a Warframe endless mode approach, which would be more like an onslaught that has different tiered rewards every 5 levels or so and repeats after 20. But the one major problem I see with either of those implementations is that both Diablo and Waframe don't have forever scaling loot. And if DD2 keeps scaling loot that scales forever in an endless mode, nothing good will come from it. So my biggest questions about the new endgame mode are more geared towards what is the motivational factor going to be to play it. Leaderboards? While nice, I hope that isn't the main fun factor. Want to farm something, and if scaling loot will ruin the game, what else is there? Because in my opinion shards had a chance to be fun for much longer, with a much longer progression system tied to them (i.e. upgrading them to max stats should have taken months instead of 5 maps worth of gold). So will the community's riots shorten the fun for the community? Ok stopping midthought is probably a good idea before this goes on forever.

tldr; don't think it's going to be an endless mode, more of an endless level of challenges.

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No matter what "endless mode" really means, I hope they implete a system that makes onslaught interesting for players like myself. I do play basically on a daily basis, but since I have a job and a family, this is usually just around one hour, max two, a day. I will never be able to do 500 rounds in one go.

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I think a lot of the comments resonate for me as something else to do.  Chaos 7 really isn't bad; however, the lack of maps we can run is what makes it dull for me.  I am not a leaderboard pushed because I like finding towers that are "sucky" or "horrible" and finding ways they work great or even amazing.  Something more to do would be so good!

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I really hope that whatever they decide to do with the new game mode it will let you pick  any of the available maps at least. As for difficulty I would like something similar to DD1 survival with picking modifiers and level of difficulty each time you play. It would also be nice to have a set limit on the amount of waves so players with less time can still make use of them, With possible rewards hmm.... I quite liked onslaught and how it let you pick what reward you wanted so we could have weapons armour shards and relics(if they ever make pets useful again these too). We should get  guaranteed gold chest as well and perhaps depending on the amount of modifiers increase the gear/relics dropped. So a sort of mix of old onslaught and DD1 survival.

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