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Black Mamba

New Tavern Is Laggy as Hell in the Final Beta. VERY ANNOYING.

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I'm  not sure what is going on again, but I'm getting less than 25-30 FPS while standing still in this Tavern. Moving around causes it to drop below 25 and even below 20 at times. Inventory menus and everything from accessing the shop to interacting with Tavernkeep is laggy like hell. THIS IS VERY ANNOYING.

Previous update I was hovering between 35-50FPS which was borderline tolerable[not acceptable, but tolerable].
0CiuWOA.jpg

^ This however isn't.  For some reason its worse than even the 1st Beta update, or about as much worse. Take a look, standing still on 2nd floor and FPS is about  20-25.

I don't think this Tavern is going to sit down well with others who have potato PCs/Laptops and more than half the community hasn't even experienced the Beta yet to know what's about to come and hit them. Funny thing is all the performance drops I'm reporting are in Local Singleplayer Mode, not even Online, not even with any extra characters in the Tavern. Heck, the current Tavern starts to lag like crap once there are more than 10+ people. This new Tavern is going to murder people's PCs. I shiver to even imagine how piss-poor the performance is going to be on this Tavern when there's more than 5-7 people in your Tavern.

I have a more than competent PC to run this game so its definitely nothing wrong with the hardware.

My "theory" is that its very much the unnecessary bits added in the Tavern that are taking up resources even while they aren't in view. The Tavern map itself is unnecessarily big. What could've simply been achieved with a nice sky-box has been changed to actual 3D stuff on the outside. The water is flowing, the trees, the outside buildings, the bridges, the [now] locked top floor, the mountains and the cliffs, and EVERYTHING in between uses resources, collectively this adds up to become a performance hog. People spend most of their time in the Tavern, I know I do, so almost more than half performance drop is simply unacceptable.

I'd honestly like to see how much of a difference having all the outside stuff removed has on the Tavern to ensure whether my "theory" is correct or there's some other issue altogether.

All said and done, as much as I want this update to come out quickly enough and as much as everyone wants a new bigger Tavern, at the same time performance is PARAMOUNT to me. I can't accept this Tavern in the current state. This absolutely needs to be fixed. I had the exact same complaints regarding Tavern performance back 6 months and the "designer" got upset due to critical feedback and took it way too personally. This time however, there's no sugar-coating it anymore. 


And seeing as this update's major talking point has been the "New Tavern", I don't think I can give positive feedback for this. Its crap, to put it mildly. I like my FPS, I like playing games that feel smooth and snappy rather than jittery and annoying. I'd much rather live with the current old Tavern with the skin changed back to normal/vanilla than play this game with the "New Tavern".

So there's my feedback, use it however you guys want it to.

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I have not played the Beta, but I trust Mamba.


This will be very disappointing and will further push people away from this game is the normal tavern just won't run.

Please please see about fixing this. If we can't fix this in the time frame, I would rather not have it, than have it, and have to fix it in the future. Please don't put out something that will cause this game to run slower

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I am going to have to disagree with mambo here I would not say I have a great computer at all I would say decent at best and I run at constant 62 fps in the new tavern even when I spam lighting tower and blowing ball turrets in the tavern. The only difference that I can find is that is defiantly takes me a few more seconds to load into the tavern but tbh that does not really bother me.

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@Black Mamba quote:

I have a more than competent PC to run this game so its definitely nothing wrong with the hardware.

I fine this a little hard to believe as I run DD with a gtx 970 graphics card and a i5 processor (pretty out of date hardware) and I get a solid 60 no matter where i am in the new tavern. I will agree with cat on the loading times however but that's to be expected.

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I fine this a little hard to believe as I run DD with a gtx 970 graphics card and a i5 processor

And guess what? I don't give two hoots whether you believe it or not. You've not the concerned party here.

I'm running a FX6100 @@4.4GHz with a MSI GTX970 @@1575Mhz. My processor is probably even outdated than yours.

In the current Tavern I get locked 60 FPS regardless of whatever I'm doing, unless it is not too extreme.
In the new Tavern, not even 30 while standing still, and below 25 most of the time while moving around.
Clearly something is wrong.

If my hardware was a "toaster", I wouldn't be getting locked 60 FPS in the old Tavern. Why haven't i complained about map lags either? Becasue guess what? They don't lag. Not even the new ones in Beta, not even with added players.

This "well but it works for me so it must be fine" argument needs to be dropped now. Its not how development works, you have to incorporate for the worst case scenario while optimizing things. Especially while dealing with something as critical as the Tavern in this game.

And I'm not the only one who has faced FPS issues. If you go back to the thread I linked in the main post, couple of other people had the same complaints. FPS dropping was relatively fixed in previous update.

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Works fine for me.  My hardware is pretty old but I do have an Intel processor.

In all honesty though, with the patch already almost being a year in the making now, I'd hate to see it delayed yet again because of 3-5 people having low FPS in the tavern.

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Its very surprising to see that people here are completely okay with a broken update(specifically the Tavern) and let others suffer and get shafted.
No wonder the gaming industry has gone to dogs when the consumers themselves have become ignorant and pass off bug-ridden games and updates as being "perfectly fine". Shameful apologists. As unbelievable as it is, it is very eye-opening!
Also not a surprise why long-time veterans and well-known community members like [[42201,users]], etc. have quit the game off late.

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@Black Mamba quote:

No wonder the gaming industry has gone to dogs when the consumers themselves have become ignorant and pass off bug-ridden games and updates as being "perfectly fine". Shameful apologists. As unbelievable as it is, it is very eye-opening!

Hahahaha, you are so melodramatic. squire_small.png You're commenting on the entire video game industry?  Too funny.

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While it may be to late to totally change the tavern at this point i am going to try and remove some of the lag. I'm not going to promise any big changes, but ill try to get a couple more FPS for you. 

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Thanks for posting what HW is actually having the issue in one of your later posts here. I have been asking others to check on low end pcs if they can.  I have had some else report issues to me with DD in general having issues.  They had a mix of AMD CPU and Nvidia graphics as well.   However your graphics is definitely not the issue.  I have a 750Ti and it runs the new tavern maxed at 60fps.  I have an Intel CPU though.

Do you have an AMD video card you could get your hands on temporarily to test with the rest of your setup?  Also, what is your CPU usage when running the tavern.  Your graphics card should not have a problem with this so it could be a driver issue when playing on AMD CPUs with Nvidia graphics. 

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How many items do you have on the ground?  How many did you have when you tested the previous update?

Does your FPS change if you turn beams on/off?  Does your FPS change if you pick up all the items?

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GTX 950M

Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-6500U CPU 2.50GHz

8GB RAM

I'm 99% sure my laptop is worse than your PC, and when taking both of these screenshots I'm in windowed mode, so I could probobly be locked at around 60fps instead of being at 60fps and 50-60fps when moving around. On the first floor I have a decent amount of items with beams on the floor, and on the second floor I have nothing. With two heroes in (4 total in tavern) I still mainly get 45-55 with highest being 58 and lowest being 39.

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Do you have an AMD video card you could get your hands on temporarily to test with the rest of your setup? Also, what is your CPU usage when running the tavern. Your graphics card should not have a problem with this so it could be a driver issue when playing on AMD CPUs with Nvidia graphics.

Sadly the AMD card I have is busted. So not much I can do in that regards.
I'm running all the latest drivers. I checked those before posting.
CPU usage after performing the tasks asked by Plane in post and moving around in the Tavern for about 25+mins -- http://i.imgur.com/rAAycqK.png
From an eye-ball, I'd say its below 40% usage at most of the times. (MSI Overlay isn't working for some reason so using the Afterburner Window for now, shouldn't affect performance though).
Also nothing running in the background, made sure to turn everything off.

The AMD CPU + Nvidia GPU driver issue you mentioned affects certain DX11/12 titles but only on AMD's recently launched Ryzen series. It was due to Nvidia's high DX11/12 overhead or something and not being optimized for the new Zen architecture.
My current CPU can run Witcher 3 at High settings locked 60 FPS, even in Novigrad one of the most CPU intensive areas with loads of NPC moving around etc. Even in GTA 5 I get a nice 50-60FPS on High settings. Tomb Raider I'm sitting at locked 60 FPS on max settings. Batman Arkham Knight(one of the most unoptimized games at launch) I could do 50-60 FPS with high settings & Nvidia GameWorks crap turned off and after optimizations it was pretty much locked 60!

I doubt its the AMD CPU + GPU issue since the game works totally fine in the old Tavern and even in the new maps.


How many items do you have on the ground?

^ 86 +/- 2 in total.

How many did you have when you tested the previous update?

^ Same 86 +/- 2. My Tavern floor items have been the same since pretty much Jan or Feb of this year. Might have added 1 or 2 extra items, shouldn't matter much though.

Does your FPS change if you turn beams on/off?

^ Yes, by 1-3 FPS on average I think -- http://i.imgur.com/ZtyKg7u.png
Rapidly turning it on and off neither lags nor improves performance by any noticeable amount from the current state(~25FPS).

Does your FPS change if you pick up all the items?

^ Heck yes, by 10-12 FPS -- http://i.imgur.com/hJ9OiIY.png
Too bad this is totally counter-productive and completely renders the purpose of having a bigger tavern if I'm to keep my stuff in inventory, LOL! :-)
One more thing I noticed -- anytime I pick up an item the FPS goes below 20FPS and as low as 15-14 at times. I think every interaction is being saved quite rapidly. So when I was picking up items quickly the "Blue Loading Circle" at bottom right which saves progress was just constantly running in circles. Will have to check if this is the same with the current main version. Probably not enough to be noticeable as I've picked up and re-dropped items plenty of times. Didn't lag as much as it did in this Tavern.


Additional screenshots if it helps:
-- Right after launching the game -- http://i.imgur.com/nB65irc.png
-- Launching the game and moving around a bit outside -- http://i.imgur.com/dVab9Wq.png (FPS might be within margin of error, but for some reason there was loads of noticeable stutter)
-- Top floor after removing items -- http://i.imgur.com/nCz8Jxs.png

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Well I dont think it is only an AMD CPU + Nvidia GPU issue.  I think there is something that is causing the drop but I think your config is more affected since lower graphics cards can run higher than yours.

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Yeah I don't know why this is happening. I had complained about FPS drops previously and it was fixed and I had decent enough play-able FPS, not locked 60 but it was fine, the worse was even 35 something. Dunno what's the issue now hence the frustration & rant.

Most noticeable impact I've seen is when all items were removed. That increases the FPS but a decent 10-12 right away at all places. In the Basement previously I forgot to mention this, but with Items and all I got 40+ FPS in Basement(i.e. at the time of creating this thread). After removing Items its 50+ even locked 60(read below).

One more odd thing I've noticed, is anytime I'm facing the Crystal(like in the screenshots above) there is a noticeable dip in FPS. And anytime I'm facing away from the Crystal I get about 5-10+ FPS right away depending on position.

Here,
Not facing the direction of the Crystal means Locked 60 FPS in basement and about 40+ in other places -- https://i.imgur.com/5DL84OE.jpg

Literally from the same position, facing the direction of the Crystal means a crazy 10-15 drops in FPS -- https://i.imgur.com/pCT7e3q.jpg


Pretty odd yeah? And its about the same for other places too:

Outside, facing the "big gate", no items on Tavern floor. With items it'd be 10FPS low. Nice 50+ FPS on average -- https://i.imgur.com/JldM36S.jpg

Outside, facing the Crystal inside tavern, no items on Tavern floor. With items it'd be 10FPS low. Boom 15-20+ FPS gone just like that! :-/ -- https://i.imgur.com/W3ThnDk.jpg

Top floor facing away from the Crystal in Tavern, no items on Tavern floor. With items it'd be 10FPS low. Again nice 48-55 FPS -- https://i.imgur.com/rvoJ44E.jpg

Top floor facing towards the Crystal in Tavern, no items on Tavern floor. With items it'd be 10FPS low. Same story 15-20 FPS gone just like that. :-/ -- https://i.imgur.com/legwJOe.jpg


At this point I thought... maybe its the CD portal causing the drops for whatever reason? Since it is right besides the Crystal area anyways. Sadly, disabling it and restarting the game even has no effect, getting pretty much the same numbers as posted in the above screenshot +/- 1 or 2 FPS which is within margin of error.


Again, all the numbers above are without any items. So doesn't really mean much if you remove 10FPS from each it drops down below 25 at most places. And completely negates the point of having a big tavern for me if I can't put stuff down! LOL.

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What version of the graphics drivers are you running? latest? What versions are people running who aren't having your issues?

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Dunno about others, I'm running latest drivers & dependables. My current Windows is also a relatively fresh install, about 5 months.
[[8146,users]] has now reported that he is getting 21 FPS on a GTX1070, which obviously shouldn't happen.

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Beta has been updated with cameras removed and several have confirmed it is much better.  Please give the updated beta a try.

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I'll just update this with stuff I've already passed on to Acen.

-- Since the update, there is VISIBLE improvement in how the entire Tavern feels. It feels absolutely smooth and snappy rather than jittery, stuttery, laggy and choppy as before.
-- Sadly for me the absolute number-wise FPS increase is about 5-10FPS bringing me at an average of 28-30(mostly 30) FPS inside the Tavern.
-- Although its 30FPS inside Tavern, but basement, some areas on the outside and most places on the top-floor now give me at least 40+  FPS while moving. Which is tolerable. A 20 FPS tank is still not at all acceptable, but tolerable for now.
-- Secret TV room has never felt better. Even in the current live it felt very stuttery and choppy. Not anymore.
-- Still would love some more optimizations to get that sweet 60FPS, but may just settle for 50+ constant I guess! :-/

All images forwarded to concerned people were with items on and beams turned off.

Looking forward to some more optimizations and fixes before launch! 
Thanks whoever got rid of the awful cameras which no one used after checking them out maybe once! :-D

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Post a screenshot of task manager when it lags the most. Just to see what resources DD is using.

@Black Mamba quote:

I'm  not sure what is going on again, but I'm getting less than 25-30 FPS while standing still in this Tavern. Moving around causes it to drop below 25 and even below 20 at times. Inventory menus and everything from accessing the shop to interacting with Tavernkeep is laggy like hell. THIS IS VERY ANNOYING.

Previous update I was hovering between 35-50FPS which was borderline tolerable[not acceptable, but tolerable].
0CiuWOA.jpg

^ This however isn't.  For some reason its worse than even the 1st Beta update, or about as much worse. Take a look, standing still on 2nd floor and FPS is about  20-25.

I don't think this Tavern is going to sit down well with others who have potato PCs/Laptops and more than half the community hasn't even experienced the Beta yet to know what's about to come and hit them. Funny thing is all the performance drops I'm reporting are in Local Singleplayer Mode, not even Online, not even with any extra characters in the Tavern. Heck, the current Tavern starts to lag like crap once there are more than 10+ people. This new Tavern is going to murder people's PCs. I shiver to even imagine how piss-poor the performance is going to be on this Tavern when there's more than 5-7 people in your Tavern.

I have a more than competent PC to run this game so its definitely nothing wrong with the hardware.

My "theory" is that its very much the unnecessary bits added in the Tavern that are taking up resources even while they aren't in view. The Tavern map itself is unnecessarily big. What could've simply been achieved with a nice sky-box has been changed to actual 3D stuff on the outside. The water is flowing, the trees, the outside buildings, the bridges, the [now] locked top floor, the mountains and the cliffs, and EVERYTHING in between uses resources, collectively this adds up to become a performance hog. People spend most of their time in the Tavern, I know I do, so almost more than half performance drop is simply unacceptable.

I'd honestly like to see how much of a difference having all the outside stuff removed has on the Tavern to ensure whether my "theory" is correct or there's some other issue altogether.

All said and done, as much as I want this update to come out quickly enough and as much as everyone wants a new bigger Tavern, at the same time performance is PARAMOUNT to me. I can't accept this Tavern in the current state. This absolutely needs to be fixed. I had the exact same complaints regarding Tavern performance back 6 months and the "designer" got upset due to critical feedback and took it way too personally. This time however, there's no sugar-coating it anymore. 


And seeing as this update's major talking point has been the "New Tavern", I don't think I can give positive feedback for this. Its crap, to put it mildly. I like my FPS, I like playing games that feel smooth and snappy rather than jittery and annoying. I'd much rather live with the current old Tavern with the skin changed back to normal/vanilla than play this game with the "New Tavern".

So there's my feedback, use it however you guys want it to.


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Hello. I'm on Win7 32bit, Q6600 Quad Core,  2GB Ram,  2GB GTX 650TI. I'm not having a problem with frame rates or lag, but since the new update when ever I return to the tavern I crash to desktop unless I change my settings to low (which looks pretty crap).


Before the update I'd never had any performance issues on high setting. I can still do large maps with 2,500+ mobs but I can't handle an empty tavern. Is some better optimization in the pipeline or would the CDT consider making the new tavern optional and players could select the old one if they perferred it? Thank you.

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There's no option for a alternate tavern. This was discussed a lot over the last two years this patch has been in the works and it was determined not possible.

As far as the performance issues... there are some very outdated lines of code in the game that were for MOBILE optimization and have since taken to becoming more limiting on performance to varying hardware rather than being a benefit. The tavern itself isn't so much the problem as the lack of a good optimization patch on the backend of things.  

 I have been saying this for a long time but for the sake of having it seen one more time : The games backend code has to be updated, CDT has no control over this, and Trendy has not expressed any plans to spend time on addressing this issue outright.  Until they do, everyone is stuck with "it works or it doesn't", and it makes the rest of us look bad. 

 I'm sorry the hard work I put into the tavern has turned into a trifle than a boon for some people but.. it's been over a year since this was tested initially and the real bugs in the engine should have been fixed and smoothed out during this time, and could have been.  But I'm done playing this broken record. 

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Thank you for the response and explanation Nexus. Perhaps it's time I upgraded my PC to keep up with all the good work the CDT is doing.

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