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WavingHat

Trading

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I know you guys (Trendy) have stressed that you are worried about trading becoming an issue like in DD1 where people would sell items for real monies. But trading was a MASSIVE part of DD1's end game content. Because, even if you farmed the same map over and over and over, never getting that one piece of whatever that you wanted. You were at least farming up currency and other gear to potentially trade up with someone that had the item you were looking for. 

I loved hosting Tavern shops and laying my phat loot on the floor for people to ogle at. You could make some sweet Gold (or mana back in the days of DD1). Or simply even selling carry runs for Mana was a great way to make money.

Honestly the only real issue with trading in DD1 was the fact that is was incredibly easy to hack into. People could hack into the code of a certain item, change it's name, and give it it's own unique stats in a matter of minutes.This did cause a problem because people would sell these hacked or duplicated items for real money. I remember I was in a game with someone that was hacking on that latest Turkey Hunt map and was using a lightning aura bigger than the entire map. He had been reported several times before that and was banned while in that game. Literally 5 minutes later is was back in the game with us because he lifted his ban by himself, just like that. However, now that playverse is hosting your servers for you I don't think this would be an issue and would love to see trading come back.

Trading was a great way to help with progression, make some sweet in-game money, and helped the whole community. I really do hope it comes back soon.

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I recently made a thread on this as well: https://dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/147524/player-trading?scrollTo=1294352%231294352 

Several threads throughout the years, actually, but none of which got any notable attention. A large chunk of the DD2 community seems to be against trading (although for misinterpreted reasons, such as the illusion that trading will also bring hacking back), or they care too much that other people will be able to skip loot progression by being given free OP end game gear from their friends. But that wouldn't really affect anyone, and it'd be even less of a problem if legendaries were actually legendary and Trendy made a few tweaks in how loot progression works. The only real issue might be item inflation, but that could be fixed/handled with more gold sinks, character-binding weapons, decreased drop rates, gear bonus sets, slow "loot improvements" or higher item tiers throughout the years to reset everything, etc.

It seems like trading of cosmetics and (potentially) pets will become a thing, but a few Trendy staff members have expressed their personal feelings about how trading would ruin loot progression and cause a lot of balance issues which would be a mess to deal with. So it's very likely that gear trading and shard trading won't become a thing because Trendy doesn't want to deal with more developing and revamping, but if that's really the case, the game is probably just a jumbled design mess then, to where developing any new content would be difficult. I really wish we could get some clarification on this, especially since Trendy's been "discussing trading internally" for the last 3 years.

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Honestly who cares if a friend gives someone good gear? In the current stages of the game you really can't play with friends unless yous tarted the game together. I am nearing end-game and (pushing c6) and if a new friend joined me I would have to power level him to 50 and even once they hit 50 they would just be dead weight. Making things scale higher. Being able to trade gear would allow you to actually play with friends. Rather than your friends just sitting in a corner until the map is over.

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@WavingHat quote:

I know you guys (Trendy) have stressed that you are worried about trading becoming an issue like in DD1 where people would sell items for real monies.

The problem is not people selling gear for currency, the problem is destroying the progression, a person entering the game able to be max gear without even playing, don't you think that would destroy the game? Especially when there is no content after C7, or any reason to grind?




@WavingHat quote:

Honestly who cares if a friend gives someone good gear? In the current stages of the game you really can't play with friends unless yous tarted the game together. I am nearing end-game and (pushing c6) and if a new friend joined me I would have to power level him to 50 and even once they hit 50 they would just be dead weight. Making things scale higher. Being able to trade gear would allow you to actually play with friends. Rather than your friends just sitting in a corner until the map is over.

So in order for you to play a few games with your friend in max gear, you prefer destroying the game for everyone?

How about put your gear aside, and start with your friend on their level?

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@specialK quote:


@WavingHat quote:

I know you guys (Trendy) have stressed that you are worried about trading becoming an issue like in DD1 where people would sell items for real monies.

The problem is not people selling gear for currency, the problem is destroying the progression, a person entering the game able to be max gear without even playing, don't you think that would destroy the game? Especially when there is no content after C7, or any reason to grind?




@WavingHat quote:

Honestly who cares if a friend gives someone good gear? In the current stages of the game you really can't play with friends unless yous tarted the game together. I am nearing end-game and (pushing c6) and if a new friend joined me I would have to power level him to 50 and even once they hit 50 they would just be dead weight. Making things scale higher. Being able to trade gear would allow you to actually play with friends. Rather than your friends just sitting in a corner until the map is over.

So in order for you to play a few games with your friend in max gear, you prefer destroying the game for everyone?

How about put your gear aside, and start with your friend on their level?

Agreed, progression is a fun aspect of the game. It does actually feel good to know that you're progressing. 

Like [[21159,users]] said, giving endgame gear to new players is actually destroying the game and I personally think that this is worse that leeching. 

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Allot of hate towards trading comes from the belief that anyone can buy any level of gear with no grinding required. I dont see any issue if trading was limited to something like how the wayfayer works where what you would be able to buy is restricted to your present best geared hero. For trading it could be slightly extended to say like if you currently have 4.5k relics the most you can buy is 5k. Sure it would still cut down grind time but wont let you instantly skip from campaign gear to top c7. 

If trading was to occur in any fashion he price of items will probably be at least the total value of what that item would cost if you were to buy from the blacksmith around 250k+. As we know gaining that amount of gold PER item is not just ONE map! It would not be possible for an entirely new player to be able to buy one piece of equipment/relic never mind a full set. HOWEVER if you are able to just GIVE an item to a friend then all of the issues surrounding skipping content etc would be completely valid.


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How come skipping loot progression didn't destroy DD1 or games like RuneScape where there've been 100k players for the past 16 years now? Or some of the other popular MMOs with looting? And even if one can skip loot progression, it doesn't destroy the game for you. So why do you care so much? Who says loot progression has to be a necessary aspect anyway?

Please stop trying to "fix" it as if it's an issue. And let them release it with no limits. Loot progression will only destroy the game if the game lacks an end-game, which means the game's already destroyed. And it really does right now. Trendy should look into some popular MMOs with trading like Tera for wisdom on how to do things.

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@specialK quote:


@WavingHat quote:

I know you guys (Trendy) have stressed that you are worried about trading becoming an issue like in DD1 where people would sell items for real monies.

The problem is not people selling gear for currency, the problem is destroying the progression, a person entering the game able to be max gear without even playing, don't you think that would destroy the game? Especially when there is no content after C7, or any reason to grind?




@WavingHat quote:

Honestly who cares if a friend gives someone good gear? In the current stages of the game you really can't play with friends unless yous tarted the game together. I am nearing end-game and (pushing c6) and if a new friend joined me I would have to power level him to 50 and even once they hit 50 they would just be dead weight. Making things scale higher. Being able to trade gear would allow you to actually play with friends. Rather than your friends just sitting in a corner until the map is over.

So in order for you to play a few games with your friend in max gear, you prefer destroying the game for everyone?

How about put your gear aside, and start with your friend on their level?

ME and a friend playing private matches will in no way impede your gaming experience. You wouldn't even know it happened. Besides it's not like opening up trading would instantly give everyone the best gear. In DD1 if you wanted to trade for "max gear" as you put it. It would cost you greatly and you would be set back in currency as a different type of progression. It was pretty rare that anyone had the currency to buy an entire set of "max gear" anyways. It was usually a weapon or piece of armor to get them past that last wave or something. 

As far as starting over at level 1... That's just a bad idea. So basically you're saying that you'd want to grind with a for a very long time just to get even with the part of the game that you are actually progressing through? Seems like a pretty bad multiplayer system.

In DD1 even if a friend did give you "max gear" there was still plenty to do. Grind for unique pets, unique weapons, explore the awesome maps. Even with "max gear" there were still very challenging end game maps and bosses. Something DD2 is lacking right now.

So no, trading would in no way harm DD2. No one is going to grind for weeks to get a set of "max gear" just to give it away.

"The problem is not people selling gear for currency" These are your first words. Trendy as explicitly stated in many dev-streams that that was the exact issue with trading. People would create their own gear in external software and sell that for real money.

[[21159,users]] -- Do you honestly think a level one character would have the gold or whatever currency is being asked to buy said "max gear" to instantly jump to c7? C'mon man, think about it a bit. 

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C1 to C6 is a pointless arbitrary grind anyway -- a means to an end. If someone has a friend generous enough to help them skip it so that they can get to the fun part, then by all means. With enough end game content such as bosses, mini-games, and ultra rare items, as WavingHat said, it won't be a problem at all.

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@whaaaah quote:

would be kinda fun if gem is the only trading currency fwyvern_icon_medium.png

I will trade you 300 of my Enhanced Pretty Blue Gems for 320 of your dull and uncapitalized blue gems, sounds fair ya know :P

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@Juicebags quote:


@whaaaah quote:

would be kinda fun if gem is the only trading currency fwyvern_icon_medium.png

I will trade you 300 of my Enhanced Pretty Blue Gems for 320 of your dull and uncapitalized blue gems, sounds fair ya know :P

I'll buy gems for free thanks.


As for the topic, first of all hacking would not be an issue because DD2 is server-sided. Given enough restrictions as to what items players could buy (e.g. this item comes from Chaos 7 Trials, to be able to purchase it, you need to do something in Chaos 7 (win incursions, win Trials x amount of times solo..)) and having distinct gold prices on every tier as to make it not worth to buy higher items and not be able to have gold afterwards, this could be fine.

As to players giving friends stuff, probably wouldn't be an issue with a good end-game and having stuff to do way after the final step from progressing as mentioned above.

As a result, in my opinion, trading is a real possibility as long as it's executed well.

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I am on the side of trading, open trading.  I do not think it diminished DD1 in anyway to have trading.  Yes, people hacked the game to create items because the game was more client side oriented than server side.  That happened, so this time they made the game more server side.  So the issues of trading should be resolved already?  At least partially I would think.  Personally, I think being able to give my friends gear so they can do stuff would be awesome.  I have many friends that quit long before they made it through all the chaos trials because the trials are not fun.  Being able to get them past that to the same point as me would be a great way for me to get them back into the game. 

I also remember from DD1 hosting many different trading taverns and selling a lot of items and then visiting other taverns to buy stuff from the currency I acquired by selling.  It was one of the more fun features I did and enjoyed in DD1.  Farming up items to sell, selling said items for currency, taking currency to other taverns and buying items others farmed.  Great times.

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One problem that would be 100% guaranteed to occur with unrestricted trading: the real-money sellers issue. It was an issue in DD1 (and still is.) Same for any game with a similarly open trade setup. There is no question that people would sell endgame gear and shards for real money, gift cards, and such. Endgame gear is plentiful for people at that stage, and there are countless players who would gladly pay money to skip that grind. It introduces some very bad stuff into the situation morally, but beyond that it also hurts Trendy as a business...

Remember that, unlike the first game - DD2 is modeled as Free-To-Play, with some sort of continuous revenue from most regular players. With the open trading setup, and real-money sellers: people would be directly profiting from Trendy's game (without giving the devs a cut.) But on top of that: Trendy themselves are losing money on some of their already existing salable items. Like shard packs. Why buy shard packs and gamble for shards when someone could sell the best ones to you directly? Etc.

@WavingHat quote:

specialK -- Do you honestly think a level one character would have the gold or whatever currency is being asked to buy said "max gear" to instantly jump to c7? C'mon man, think about it a bit. 

I think it's more an issue of people giving stuff away free to their friends and to other players in the community groups, on Discord, etc. Most of the hardcore endgame players have more armor than they know what to do with. Same for relics. They would gladly give those away to friends for free, and many would gladly give them away to people in the community who respectfully expressed a need. The only people needing to pay in-game currency for gear would be those truly new to the community (or uninformed of its scope of generosity and ease of loot gain.)

In any situation, if and when trading comes, there's no question it would need to have limitations. As many have mentioned before: they could make it so you can only receive a traded item if it's at/below your current deck's highest power level (the same way Wayfarer purchases and new loot drops are determined.) The current progression system, while by no means perfect or easy to understand without outside help, is setup well at its core. You progress gradually through playing. Once you get to the end, you can farm and have fun. And could trade to your heart's content.

It's true that people should be able to carry and help their friends in private matches, etc. Very valid concern. But you can already sort of do that. They need to progress along the curve bit by bit, sure, rather than instantly bypassing all of Chaos Trials. But it can still be done very quickly and without them needing to grind themselves. At least by them being present along the whole curve: there's a chance they'll pickup knowledge of the maps, building, nuances of the game, etc...

Whereas for a fresh player to skip right to C7 farming after campaign: they lose most of what the game offers. Not just the progression path, but also learning the maps and how to adapt to them. I know countless DD1 players with stats high enough to clear all content (through gear which was given to them by generous friends.) Ones that can't build a single map to save their life. That's not what Trendy wants, and it's not good for those players either.

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I have always been vaguely under the impression that trading was something that Trendy was working towards, in the long term... it would at least mean that people who have maxxed out their own equipment could do something useful with their loot drops, while people at lower chaos levels could use their hard-earned gold as an extra way to progress.

Personally, I came to this game because a couple of my friends suggested it, as a change from dungeon crawls, attempting to avoid zombies, or just shooting first persons.  I got hooked; I just managed to get my IPWR to 800 before the Change, and I'm approaching ascension 600 now.  My two friends just continue to team up with me for an evening most weeks, and are about ascension 50.  I don't see who would be hurt if I gave them some of my spare armour etc, so that we could play, on those evenings, more advanced maps... they still wouldn't have enough ascension points to get skills to their maximum, but hey, it would broaden their horizons...

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Trading in DD2 as is, would be a detriment to the game. 

Established players would think, "Oh yea I get to make some extra gold". For a week.

The the market would be flooded with pretty much any single legendary gear. A perfect legendary would maybe cost 5 million gold, for the first few weeks.  Which is not a lot at all, nothing special to spend it on. 

No one needs perfect gear, you get so many legendaries that you just delete anything that doesn't have max ish roll in each stat. Which is where I am now. 

Armor below 7k? Sell

Armor above 7k check, any stat not 4700+? Sell

Any gear slightly below that, all low rolls or not, would bump any new player to max "ipwr" in an instant. This is only talking about legendaries.

Why would a new player bother buying legendaries, when that player could just buy grey, blue or green items?

Skipping all progression, skipping hours of game play.

Many end game players don't even bother looking at the legendary drops, just instantly sell them.

As is adding trading, Trendy would lose:

  • Gem sales(Who buys them anyway, Steam Packs are much cheaper)
  • Steam pack sales
  • Hero sales, people would get bored instantly being max chaos, leave game and not buy heroes.
  • Too fast progression, leading to less emotional investment in the game. Leading  to >>
  • Less Skin sales

There are literally zero positives about introducing trading to DD2 in its current state. 

The things you might see as positives, would drastically hurt the game, both in the short term and long term.

The game would need a total loot overhaul to accommodate trading in its current form.

Shards would need to drop once every 10 games instead of 3 shards dropping every game.


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[[43706,users]] Which is why they should reduce drop rates and overhaul the whole game. If it can't handle trading, something's not right if you ask me.

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@mindlessdefender quote:

Fact that the game is free and people can just make multiple accounts to trade with having 4x more item advantage then the rest is why I against trading.

I don't think it's that easy. If Trendy locked one login per one IP address, it would be quite the hassle to somehow run 3 more computers with each one connected through a different proxy. And 4-man maps shouldn't be possible to complete anyway without 4 active players, so it should be a lot more difficult. On top of all that, players know they'd be risking a ban by doing it. Realistically, I don't think this will at all be a problem. However, in the current state of the game with super high legendary drop rates, item inflation could definitely be a problem, but the pros of trading still far outweigh any cons if you ask me.

Anyway, it's a looting game. This game needs trading. Practically every big-name MMO has it for a reason. Can you imagine not having the ability to chat with others?! It's as equally obnoxious.

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@ally quote:

... they should reduce drop rates and overhaul the whole game. If it can't handle trading, something's not right if you ask me.

Wait what? lol.

Sure Invest into trendy a few million and your wish will be granted. Gobu

The legion supports takeovers of companys and cheers for you gobu.

Emoji_Goblin.pngEmoji_GobHuntress.pngEmoji_Kobalt.png

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@dreamanime quote:

Wait what? lol.

Sure Invest into trendy a few million and your wish will be granted. Gobu

The legion supports takeovers of companys and cheers for you gobu.

Wait, what? Another unneeded meme post that doesn't really add anything to the actual discussion? lol! Anyway, trading is coming. It has been confirmed many times by Trendy, so I don't think the current trading-related discussions should be about whether or not trading should exist at all because it will regardless. Rather, the current suggestions should aim to answer what kind of trading system we want in place and how we want Trendy to implement it. I've tried to do my best answer those questions and give solutions to any potential problems, but everyone else would rather babble about how terrible it'll be rather than giving any actual solutions to the problems which they're whining about, which surprisingly and usually aren't really even real problems at all that need worrying about. I don't get people.

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No tradingos, no problemos skeleton.png

@ally quote:


@dreamanime quote:

Wait what? lol.

Sure Invest into trendy a few million and your wish will be granted. Gobu

The legion supports takeovers of companys and cheers for you gobu.

Wait, what? Another unneeded meme post that doesn't really add anything to the actual discussion? lol! Anyway, trading is coming. It has been confirmed many times by Trendy, so I don't think the current trading-related discussions should be about whether or not trading should exist at all because it will regardless. Rather, the current suggestions should aim to answer what kind of trading system we want in place and how we want Trendy to implement it. I've tried to do my best answer those questions and give solutions to any potential problems, but everyone else would rather babble about how terrible it'll be rather than giving any actual solutions to the problems which they're whining about, which surprisingly and usually aren't really even real problems at all that need worrying about. I don't get people.


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@ally quote:

Wait, what? Another unneeded meme post that doesn't really add anything to the actual discussion? lol! Anyway, trading is coming. It has been confirmed many times by Trendy, so I don't think the current trading-related discussions should be about whether or not trading should exist at all because it will regardless. Rather, the current suggestions should aim to answer what kind of trading system we want in place and how we want Trendy to implement it. I've tried to do my best answer those questions and give solutions to any potential problems, but everyone else would rather babble about how terrible it'll be rather than giving any actual solutions to the problems which they're whining about, which surprisingly and usually aren't really even real problems at all that need worrying about. I don't get people.

eh? I haven't said anything except good luck? Why all these defensive posts of yours? Gobu.

This is about your idea of overhauling the whole game for the sake of your trading. That requires funding. Overhauling a whole game is a costy ambition.

I am not against trading if its done right, i dont care tho if it comes or not. So how you get this wrong impression Gobu.

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@mindlessdefender quote:

Fact that the game is free and people can just make multiple accounts to trade with having 4x more item advantage then the rest is why I against trading.

Forgot to mention that. Granted it is more of an obstacle in DD2 than it was in DD1. But if you can boost your progress by 100% by simply having a laptop next to your PC, something is wrong.

I'm sure there are ways to do it on the same PC as well. You even have programs that lets you access different PCs on a single monitor, using the same keyboard and mouse for all of them.

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