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Zimmermann

Flamethrower squire and weapon shards.

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Sadly with the latest update(s) there are almost no weapon shards for some AP builds, one being the squire flamethrower build. 


I have tested a few shards, that i own and the results were not good:

  • The AP scaling shard Pumpkinator does not proc from flamethrower or empowered beam. It does however proc from HD weapon attacks... This makes no sense.
  • Life Leech now only works for HD attacks... One really fun part of flamethrower squires was their nice AOE (terrible boss damage) but the combination of shieldblock and life leach. It was a lot of fun being a tank and bugs aside it had its disadvantages too (boss damage). Why does life leech not work with AP attacks in general?
  • Inspiring strikes doesnt work...
  • Ravenhost (AP scaling attack) doesn't work... it works with HD attacks though which makes no sense
  • Overwhelm (stun) doenst work....
  • Haunting (AP scaling attack) doesn't work... it works with HD attacks though which makes no sense


So what am I left with on my AP squire?

My weapon shard slots are as follows:

  • 40% anti  air shard.. yes RANDOMLY this works with flamethrower... i can shoot those kobolds and emp kobolds with slightly higher AOE
  • Empowered Beam.. my long range attack pretty and a nice shard.
  • empty... nothing useful can be used here as there is no 3rd AP shard option.


Conclusion:

@Trendy you need to have one simple rule when making these AP/HD specific shards shards, that being: Any shard that gives a % Ability Power proc/effect should be applied from ability power attacks. Any shard that has a % Hero Damage Proc/effect should be applied from Hero Damage attacks.  

To be perfectly honest (re hom-sha-bom's comment), These kinds of shards should proc from any and all attacks, as AP shards will still only be used by AP heroes and likewise with HD shards will only be used by HD heroes.

It makes absolutely no sense to have shards that give an AP effect that will never be used by AP heroes because they can only be applied by HD attacks which that hero does not use. Balance is not an issue either, as firstly they are not very powerful and secondly its an easy fix with tuning the numbers.

In addition to this utility shards like drench/life leech should just work period and not be tied to specific attack types.

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I'm unfamiliar with the Squire flamethrower builds.  In fact, I was totally unaware that there were ability power attacks (or rather, what exactly you mean by that).  I mean, I know of shards that proc on attacks (left and right click) that scale off AP, and abilities scale of AP, and shards that otherwise do cool stuff that scales off AP, but do I understand you correctly saying that the flamethrower, as a weapon, scales of AP and not HD?  Are there any others?  I might be totally misunderstanding, in which case please explain what you mean!

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I never thought of it that way. I always saw the AP damage shards that apply from attacks as a way for AP heroes to still be able to dish out some damage without spending the mana or putting abilities into cooldown.


Like if you're an AP apprentice, you're still going to be using left click attacks to mark targets. Those shards allow you to apply damage based on AP with your left click instead of requiring HD to do damage with your left click.

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@lekkin007 quote:

I'm unfamiliar with the Squire flamethrower builds.  In fact, I was totally unaware that there were ability power attacks (or rather, what exactly you mean by that).  I mean, I know of shards that proc on attacks (left and right click) that scale off AP, and abilities scale of AP, and shards that otherwise do cool stuff that scales off AP, but do I understand you correctly saying that the flamethrower, as a weapon, scales of AP and not HD?  Are there any others?  I might be totally misunderstanding, in which case please explain what you mean!

most if not all your abilities (1-4) scale from AP, so when you press them you do AP scaling attacks, in addition to this there are some other attacks like flamethrower or EV2 beam (which is number X+ LMB) scale from AP too.

All LMB and RMB attacks scale from HD (i dont think their are any exceptions here).

A shard that like pumpkinator does XXX% of your AP but is applied by a HD attack. In other words you will never use your HD attacks unless like Hom-Sha-Bom said you are regening blue mana (AP attacks consume blue mana).

However most classes do not require more then a few seconds of regen time if any and thus the whole concept kind of falls to peaces.



@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

I never thought of it that way. I always saw the AP damage shards that apply from attacks as a way for AP heroes to still be able to dish out some damage without spending the mana or putting abilities into cooldown.


Like if you're an AP apprentice, you're still going to be using left click attacks to mark targets. Those shards allow you to apply damage based on AP with your left click instead of requiring HD to do damage with your left click.

Yeah sadly with the way mana regen works no one really spends any meaningful time regening, I personally never regen and if I needed to I would probably character switch instead.

But having AP scaling shards proc/function from ALL attacks both HD and AP based would be far more enjoyable.

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@Zimmermann quote:

-clip-

I think I understand what you are saying (although you didn't clarify about the flamethrower.  It's not an ability that I recognize, so I'm guessing it is a weapon?  But you said it scales off AP?). 

Since I've been using EV2 primarily throughout the chaos trials, I actually haven't encountered it, because my favorite AP build for EV2 early on was using Death From Above (there's a shard that gives a straight multiplier to its damage, which makes it really powerful in the early chaos tiers before miniboss health really scales up), and with EV2 you are always left clicking anyways to reduce heat (i.e., recharge mana), so the shards that proc'd on regular attacks but scaled off AP made sense to me.  

Even with someone like the monk though, I would always go for a staff with 5 ranged shots when I used it, and the shard that stuns with his secondary shot, so AP also made sense there for me.

All that said, I can definitely understand the desire for more synergy between shards and abilities that both scale off AP. 

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@Zimmermann quote:
  • Life Leech now only works for HD attacks... One really fun part of flamethrower squires was their nice AOE (terrible boss damage) but the combination of shieldblock and life leach. It was a lot of fun being a tank and bugs aside it had its disadvantages too (boss damage). Why does life leech not work with AP attacks in general?
@Zimmermann quote:
  • The AP scaling shard Pumpkinator does not proc from flamethrower or empowered beam. It does however proc from HD weapon attacks... This makes no sense.
  • Ravenhost (AP scaling attack) doesn't work... it works with HD attacks though which makes no sense
  • Overwhelm (stun) doenst work....
  • Haunting (AP scaling attack) doesn't work... it works with HD attacks though which makes no sense

Well, makes sense. AP and HD thingies are set apart...

But yeah, AP needs more love.

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@lekkin007 quote:

I think I understand what you are saying (although you didn't clarify about the flamethrower.  It's not an ability that I recognize, so I'm guessing it is a weapon?  But you said it scales off AP?). 

flamethrower is a shard (AP scaling) turns shieldblock (RMB) into a flamethrower. In that respect it is like ev2 cannon, just wihtout the need to go into siege mode via #key, though ofc ev2 cannon is LMB. Both of these abilities scaling from AP and both have almost no shards that work with them. I thought the following explained it:

@Zimmermann quote:

most if not all your abilities (1-4) scale from AP, so when you press them you do AP scaling attacks, in addition to this there are some other attacks like flamethrower or EV2 beam (which is number X+ LMB) scale from AP too.



@lekkin007 quote:

Even with someone like the monk though, I would always go for a staff with 5 ranged shots when I used it, and the shard that stuns with his secondary shot, so AP also made sense there for me.

Ranged monk attacks (RMB) do not scale from AP, they are purely HD scaling, so AP is only useful for Pole Smash, Chi Blast or healing people with Heroic wave. Buffing people with Heroic wave only scales from shards and ascension points nothing more. 

Having a 5 shot weapon however is good for mana regen for AP builds and is the strongest HD attack for HD builds.

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@Zimmermann quote:All LMB and RMB attacks scale from HD (i dont think their are any exceptions here).

Abyss lord's fan of knight shard makes his RMB fires two additional knight that deal %500 Ability power in damage

Abyss Lord unique weapons RMB attacks(demon scythe and molten brimstone) scale with ability power.

@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

I never thought of it that way. I always saw the AP damage shards that apply from attacks as a way for AP heroes to still be able to dish out some damage without spending the mana or putting abilities into cooldown.


Like if you're an AP apprentice, you're still going to be using left click attacks to mark targets. Those shards allow you to apply damage based on AP with your left click instead of requiring HD to do damage with your left click.

Also AP damage shards that apply from attacks is valid choice for AP melee dryad.Her corrupted dryad's blessing is for melee fights and scale with AP.She can deal decent LMB damage with meowmere and other AP shards.

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@LineDrill quote:


@Zimmermann quote:All LMB and RMB attacks scale from HD (i dont think their are any exceptions here).

Abyss lord's fan of knight shard makes his RMB fires two additional knight that deal %500 Ability power in damage

Abyss Lord unique weapons RMB attacks(demon scythe and molten brimstone) scale with ability power.

was talking specifically about non shard modified RMB/LMB attacks, as flamethrower is exactly that RMB turns into AP attack. There are a handful of RMB/LMB modified attacks via shards that scale from AP.

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@Zimmermann quote:


@LineDrill quote:


@Zimmermann quote:All LMB and RMB attacks scale from HD (i dont think their are any exceptions here).

Abyss lord's fan of knight shard makes his RMB fires two additional knight that deal %500 Ability power in damage

Abyss Lord unique weapons RMB attacks(demon scythe and molten brimstone) scale with ability power.

was talking specifically about non shard modified RMB/LMB attacks, as flamethrower is exactly that RMB turns into AP attack. There are a handful of RMB/LMB modified attacks via shards that scale from AP.

I don't know if it's still true but in dd2 wiki ( https://wiki.dungeondefenders2.com/wiki/Weapons ) there is something like down below.(It can be outdated.)

Books

Books are equipped by the Abyss Lord. They have a Hero Damage that is 135% of their Hero Power.

  • Primary Attack: A Close Range Magical Drain Attack as Hero Damage.
  • Secondary Attack: A Range Charged Magical Projectile Attack that Pierces through multiple enemies at full charge. Deals between 100% - 500% of regular Hero Ability Power.

Also before the trials update ravenhost , haunting , pumkinator passives scale with hero damage.There should be reason why Trendy change them.

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@LineDrill quote:


@Zimmermann quote:


@LineDrill quote:


@Zimmermann quote:All LMB and RMB attacks scale from HD (i dont think their are any exceptions here).

Abyss lord's fan of knight shard makes his RMB fires two additional knight that deal %500 Ability power in damage

Abyss Lord unique weapons RMB attacks(demon scythe and molten brimstone) scale with ability power.

was talking specifically about non shard modified RMB/LMB attacks, as flamethrower is exactly that RMB turns into AP attack. There are a handful of RMB/LMB modified attacks via shards that scale from AP.

I don't know if it's still true but in dd2 wiki ( https://wiki.dungeondefenders2.com/wiki/Weapons ) there is something like down below.(It can be outdated.)

Books

Books are equipped by the Abyss Lord. They have a Hero Damage that is 135% of their Hero Power.

  • Primary Attack: A Close Range Magical Drain Attack as Hero Damage.
  • Secondary Attack: A Range Charged Magical Projectile Attack that Pierces through multiple enemies at full charge. Deals between 100% - 500% of regular Hero Ability Power.

i honestly cant remember now, but i could have sworn RMB was HD, but maybe that was changed or maybe i just never paid any attention to it (more likely). Anyway its kind of irrelevant really, most RMB/LMB attacks are HD while buttons 1-3 are AP and shards can alter RMB/LMB attacks to AP in some cases as can EV2 siege mode or point and click abilities from the gunwitch.

The real point is a shard that gives some kind of AP scaling attack should proc from AP attacks first and foremost, then maybe in addition to non AP attacks. So they need to code these random differences into it. For example if a shard says it works from attacks, it should work from all attacks not just HD or LMB attacks, it should also work for Chi blast or flamethrower etc. An attack is an attack after all. 

In the past it was all over the place what was attacks where AP or HD however.

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