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SpiderDanX

Why do most new players struggle in chaos 1 & 2?

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Here is why i think they struggle, based on playing many public games:


They are not using their intelligence properly!! That's why!

It's as simple as reading folks! When you are looking at what map/difficulty to select, chaos levels all explain what chaos mobs are new. i.e 

Ch1 - Shield Goblins. The text explain very clearly that their shields protect them from projectiles. Should be obvious from here to use traps and auras and the Flame Thrower, which is NOT a projectile.

Ch2 - Cyborks. The text is very clear that they disable traps and auras. Simple logic tells us that we should be using projectiles and the flame Thrower Tower.


This game is not that hard to figure out, yet I can't tell you how many people (100's at least) are using projectiles in Ch1 & traps/auras in CH2. Come on people! Use your heads & read & think.


What do we get instead? These players come onto the forums & say things like "Ch1/2 is really hard! how do I do it?" Someone kindly tells them what I just explained above. New player says something like "OH! I did not know! Thanks!" Then they go off & win. So, what took them 30 minutes + to find out (or days in some cases), could have taken them 30 seconds to find out just by reading the description. Like...for real?! 
The lack of people using their intelligence properly is beginning to wear on me....


Now, lest I be misunderstood, I am NOT calling anyone stupid! Quite the contrary! I am saying that people are smart, but instead choose to not act smart & decide to not use their intelligence properly.

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   I think people who are struggle with C1 and C2 didn't even build towers most of their matches in campaign. Believe it or not there are so many people who host a match without building (like "builders welcome", "builder needed" , "need help for building" sound familiar?) and try to move chaos without even try building.Some of reasons of that are;

  • Players are lazy to build all the map.
  • Maybe they think building is not fun.
   Building is like playing goalkeeper in football(soccer). Most people don't want to play as goalkeeper but its most important thing for the game.
    About tower choice is choas matches maybe new players doesn't even know tower type.They don't know what is the difference with projectiles and beams.
   Maybe small tutorial about each chaos enemy when they first start new chaos level solve this problem because they are too lazy figure out by themselves.

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Maybe small tutorial about each chaos enemy when they first start new chaos level solve this problem because they are too lazy figure out by themselves.

Exactly this so many players in early tiers have no idea how to build using towers with no range placed behind their walls with no health because they haven't use a totem.

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Spider Dan, I get what you mean, and I have asked for help with Chaos 1 on these forums. But I have to remind you, not all of don't read. First thing I did, was read. That's why I decided to use a lot of FlameThrowers. And only after being in some public matches and getting gear from failed Chaos, am I getting to somewhere solo. After defeating the Harbinger, and grinding the most I could for weapons and armor, I wasn't strong enough to solo Chaos. And I think I'm still not able to solo it. I'm using traps and flamethrowers. People already advised me to also use those things in front of the shields, pointing back to it, and that's a thing I've also done the entire campaign, not just Chaos.
It might just be me, but still with all this information, I can't solo this, and I wouldn't reach wave 2 or 3 without being in public Chaos with Overpowered people.

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Does the game still do that cutscene thing when a new enemy type is introduced that tells you about them? And does it do that for Chaos enemies?

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I found C1 easy, I found C3 both easier and more fun than C2, so I straight up skipped it. Cyborks are not a fun enemy to try to build around (disabling traps and auras), and do far too much AoE damage (my high tier C1 walls couldn't tank Cyborks, but they can take C3 damage just fine).

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People used to DPS and winning, or just slapping any kinds of tower anywhere and it working. People don't think this game is actually a bit about strategy.

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I think the big issue here is the difficulty curve. Campaign is basically place anything anywhere and you can make it work if you try. Chaos introduces the concept of strategy that campaign let players completely ignore until then. 

They get into their mind that they "this is how the game works" but get to chaos and don't understand why it doesn't work anymore. 

Reading and determining that you can't use projectile towers from the front doesn't mean they're going to know what, how, or where to set things up.. so they get stuck. 

(Conclusion, campaign is way too baby easy)

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@Rikipalooza quote:

Spider Dan, I get what you mean, and I have asked for help with Chaos 1 on these forums. But I have to remind you, not all of don't read. First thing I did, was read. That's why I decided to use a lot of FlameThrowers. And only after being in some public matches and getting gear from failed Chaos, am I getting to somewhere solo. After defeating the Harbinger, and grinding the most I could for weapons and armor, I wasn't strong enough to solo Chaos. And I think I'm still not able to solo it. I'm using traps and flamethrowers. People already advised me to also use those things in front of the shields, pointing back to it, and that's a thing I've also done the entire campaign, not just Chaos.
It might just be me, but still with all this information, I can't solo this, and I wouldn't reach wave 2 or 3 without being in public Chaos with Overpowered people.

I hear you. That's why I said most, instead if all. Cuz I realize there are those, like you, who do read & apply logic, intelligence, etc. See what Flame Auras (Or if you have EV2, Proton beams or Weapon Manufacturers) can do for you. :-)



@geo981010 quote:

Snip

Speaking of walls of text...lol

Bestiery huh? We should suggest that to trendy! :-)
DD2 has a pretty decent tutorial map now Not like what they used to have. I think we have to actually select it from the main menu or from the "esc" menu. This means we don't start in the tutorial map wen we start the game for the 1st time (I could be wrong?) It goes over some good basics, including tower placement, DU, DU cost & ability usage, etc.

@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

Does the game still do that cutscene thing when a new enemy type is introduced that tells you about them? And does it do that for Chaos enemies?

Not a cutscene. But, instead a word bubble, like in comics, where the "mini boss" is talking and kind of references what it does.  I on the border on this for mob introduction.

@Nefhith quote:

People used to DPS and winning, or just slapping any kinds of tower anywhere and it working. People don't think this game is actually a bit about strategy.

Funny how that is, especially when this game is labeled as a cooperative Action Tower Defense game packed with RPG elements on the front store page.

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@SpiderDanX quote:
@Nefhith quote:

People used to DPS and winning, or just slapping any kinds of tower anywhere and it working. People don't think this game is actually a bit about strategy.

Funny how that is, especially when this game is labeled as a cooperative Action Tower Defense game packed with RPG elements on the front store page.

As if people who can't adapt to basic strategy are going to read that :l

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@Nefhith quote:


@SpiderDanX quote:
@Nefhith quote:

People used to DPS and winning, or just slapping any kinds of tower anywhere and it working. People don't think this game is actually a bit about strategy.

Funny how that is, especially when this game is labeled as a cooperative Action Tower Defense game packed with RPG elements on the front store page.

As if people who can't adapt to basic strategy are going to read that :l

Touché

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@zMiiChy quote:

(Conclusion, campaign is way too baby easy)

Ding, ding.


Tutorials would help, but too many players ignore them. More accurate stat/target descriptors would help, but once again, lots of people don't read that stuff. The trouble is that campaign's difficulty is a joke that does not adequately prepare players for the chaos that is.... chaos.


Small rewarding in game challenges on tower placement would be beautiful. Nothing spectacular, but enough to make players actually play them as a tutorial. Maybe 3-4 basic trials on tower placement, for example, could reward the players with a single C1 shard. And the challenges could all be simple tasks like "Defeat these Elite Shield Goblins using projectile towers!", coupled with some simple advice and recommendations like "Their shields block projectiles from the front, try placing your towers accordingly!". And again, make this stuff worth people's time by giving them a one-time-only shard or two for their troubles

Then, once they've completed a C1 trial, much like with Incursions, they could unlock the challenges for the next chaos levels. It could serve as practice thatplayers may actually feel is worth their time.



Of course, all this should come on top of an increase to campaign mode's depressingly easy difficulty level.

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I would say I'm stuck on chaos 2 because I can beat it but not every time. My problem isn't any sort of inability to read or understand weakness and immunity but that defences aren't strong enough and better relics aren't dropping. With bad stats my defences can't fight or survive well. 

I feel that this game has an over reliance on shards as I had the bad relic problem on chaos 1 then beat it after buying chaos 5 shards. A better, more reliable loot system would help struggling players on early chaos tiers.

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i think c2 is hardest part of chaos progression (though i havent jumped to c7 yet, still farming c6), cyborks are so disruptive to traditional building strategies, having to rely on flamethrowers (or ramsters if you have AL) for aoe is very difficult as they are on their own very very weak towers; a problem thats only compounded by lack of key later chaos shards... really to have a chance of solo progression i felt like i had to farm c1 like crazy for enroaching flames, stunfire and destruction shards (especially destruction, getting even a single drop took a disgusting amount of time, i wouldnt have even known it was possible for these three shards to drop had i not went looking for third party loot drop resources -dd2tools-)

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@SpiderDanX quote:

Here is why i think they struggle, based on playing many public games:


They are not using their intelligence properly!! That's why!

It's as simple as reading folks! When you are looking at what map/difficulty to select, chaos levels all explain what chaos mobs are

Not to quote myself from a year ago, but...

@Draco18s quote:

Whoo hoo! Someone's been at least a Level 2 Intelligent Character!

@Draco18s quote:

Trendy finally does something to make the game challenging in the light of PDT builds and making people have to actually engage with the game (aka DPS).

A new enemy has been introduced, it challenged your preconceptions about the game, its meta, and your playstyle.  You lost.  This is good.

The problem is that you've thrown down the key and stormed off in disgust rather than to trying a new approach.

The last time I had to say this to you people you were complaining about having to melee javelin throwers because their range was 10% longer than your towers! Oh the humanity!


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@Grim indeed quote:

i think c2 is hardest part of chaos progression

@zMiiChy quote:

I think the big issue here is the difficulty curve.

I've forgotten the exact order that I whipped up some time back, but I want to re-order chaos levels.

Shield goblins, geodes, and assassins are way too difficult compared to some of the other enemy types.

E.g. this would be better for the difficulty curve:

C1: berzerker lady orcs (closest to the "standard")
C2: curse throwers (fairly close to standard, but longer range)
C3: cyborcs (no auras / traps is less disruptive than no projectiles)
C4: shield goblins (blocks projectiles...from one direction*)
C5: geodes (blocks projectiles from all directions and for nearby regular mobs)
C6: emp kobolds (fsking stun every type of defense, will always dive bomb unless one-shot-KO'd, explode even if they die after they start their dive...)
C7: assassins (anti-fun)


Note that this only takes into account the chaos enemies that are currently available. If new ones are added, they might shift this arrangement arround (e.g. I'd probably want assassins as C9 or C10).


*Ostensibly I feel that the shield should not block piercing projectiles fired from behind.

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Please don't necro old threads. If you need to reference something previously, it's good to start a new thread if the thread is more than a couple months old, and then link to it in your new post.

Thanks! :)

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