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Plasma

Unfair Lanes in Chaos and Wonky Spawns

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I decided to use Imgur to convey the majority of this message since it is better than posting all the pictures here. Most of the information is there. This post will be a summary.

http://imgur.com/a/xGIfB

I tried to be as objective as possible. There are lanes that are unfair either because subs/cores are too close to a spawn and/or too open, which makes them artificially challenging and certainly annoying to play against. Like in the case of Greystone Plaza, it isn't a good feeling to need to place a safety wall down to stop Kobolts from cheesing you. Or in a lot of cases where hexes have so much range that Reflect Beams are almost mandatory and seemingly smart wall placements are punished. Though much of that pain comes from C6 because they exist in far greater numbers there. Playing the LOS game is not an engaging mechanic.

Some lanes are more easily fixed than others. Like I believe all it would take to fix Bastille is removing Hex Throwers from being able to spawn in the middle lane. Compare this to Dragonfall Sewers where the only solution I can see is moving that one sub objective. Same thing with Greystone Plaza: Kobolt mechanics would need to be changed or that West Gate Locked would need to be moved. In the case of Hex Throwers, reducing their range would do a great deal for making them less cheesy. This may warrant compensation in other areas for them. They actually have an interesting mechanic but their problem is being able to throw javelins at insane ranges and angles and they also have a nasty habit of abusing spawn protection.

Hopefully what I showcase and bring up is a fair assessment and hopefully it brings about changes in the future. 

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Are they annoying game breaking issues or challenges?  Except for the west gate on plaza, I don't think they need attention as you can work around them using different tower strategies.   Bastille might be considered a difficult map but they give you so much DU that you can just throw more towers at any problems you have.

I just feel that it makes the game more boring if every map plays very similar.   

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Just two words that will solve the issue: excessive firepower reflect beams. The only problem I see there are those stupid berserkers and their bull*** pathing.

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@Kruntski quote:

Are they annoying game breaking issues or challenges?  Except for the west gate on plaza, I don't think they need attention as you can work around them using different tower strategies.   Bastille might be considered a difficult map but they give you so much DU that you can just throw more towers at any problems you have.

I just feel that it makes the game more boring if every map plays very similar.   

I don't think that's the point of the post.


We "know" how to work around them for the most part, the point is that it shouldn't be needed entirely.


If we assume the work around as the solution, the issue will never get fixed.


Until I had enough firepower to ignore most of the enemies mechanics, I was dreading CH5 and CH7. With CH6 being the easiest one only due to the fact I had EV2 and reflect beam.


Everytime I tried to do CH6 while breaking into that chaos tier without EV2, I would get mostly wrecked.

Designing the game thinking everyone will have all heroes can work for a Hardcore Mode. 

But when the only progression mode is Chaos and is meant to gear up players, that should never be the case, imho.


West Gate Plaza is dreadful. to the point I've started to give up on the Sub all together as it just isn't worth it.


In fact, I found that for most of C7 maps, giving up the sub makes the maps actually EASIER. Since it allows you to compact your build and focus the firepower. As long as your skyguards are sharded for range, and with enough power, it will melt stuff.


I dont think losing a sub objective is meant to make a map easier. At least it shouldn't. But maps like Assault of throne room are, effectively easier, since you gotta place the skyguards anyway for Kobolds spawns.

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@Kruntski quote:

Are they annoying game breaking issues or challenges?  Except for the west gate on plaza, I don't think they need attention as you can work around them using different tower strategies.   Bastille might be considered a difficult map but they give you so much DU that you can just throw more towers at any problems you have.

I just feel that it makes the game more boring if every map plays very similar.   

Some of them are almost game breaking while others are just annoyances.

Bastille is by far the worst case. No exaggeration here, it's either place down a reflect beam or somehow find the correct placement of a safety wall, or accept the fact that you will have a strong chance of losing because Hex Throwers. Better pray they don't abuse spawn protection. The other worst offender is that sub objective on Greystone Plaza. Either place a safety wall or accept that it will get dove by Kobolts directly from the spawn. You shouldn't lose a sub-objective or the game entirely because you did not play around the cheese.

The others are only frustrating to play around. In Nimbus Reach, Hexes from a different lane will punish otherwise fine wall placement. In Little Horn, there is only one location for wall placement in the rightmost lane that won't get cheesed by Hexes. Hexes on Dead Road punish certain wall placements because they abuse spawn protection. The difficulty of defending the sub on Sewers stems from the fact that it is placed so close to a spawn. All of this stuff is artificial.

Hex Throwers I believe are a big issue that is often overlooked because we just used an EV to get past C6. Definitely not a P2W situation going on but it should be undeniable that the EV will make your life dealing with Hexes significantly easier. It's the only true avenue of counterplay. Lanes and maps just aren't built for snipers so reflect beams can feel nearly mandatory.

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@Elyssae quote:-Snip-

In fact, I found that for most of C7 maps, giving up the sub makes the maps actually EASIER. Since it allows you to compact your build and focus the firepower. As long as your skyguards are sharded for range, and with enough power, it will melt stuff.


I dont think losing a sub objective is meant to make a map easier. At least it shouldn't. But maps like Assault of throne room are, effectively easier, since you gotta place the skyguards anyway for Kobolds spawns.

I think DD2 went with a different approach than most games with the sub objective, they themselves are supposed to be hard to protect.  However, if you lose them it almost seems to be designed to be easier almost.  Yes, you have to deal with another lane, however if you built initially planning to lose the sub, then it is a cakewalk most of the time.  That being said, I think only certain sub objectives are harder to protect than the lane they open.  The close sub in sewers if you build right, goes straight into another lane and if built correctly you can have single auras overlapping between the lanes.  The other sub on that level I think is much easier to protect than to build the extra lane. 


@Plasma quote:-Snip-

Personally I think you are correct on must of your assessment.  I did not have too much trouble because I built specifically expecting certain things on most of those maps, or just designed the defense I use around losing a sub objective.  That doesn't change the fact there are some great disadvantages on particular lanes.  Also, you pointed out to me what is probably hitting one of the cores for me on Bastille, totally didn't think of the Hex throwers on the short lane, only lost once to something unknown.  Been using overwhelming firepower on that entrance since.

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I place so much fire power in the middle short lane @Bastille that I'm surprised the USA haven't thought there's  OIL there.

My PS4 dreads me for going near it everytime a wave is ongoing . 

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@Elyssae quote:

In fact, I found that for most of C7 maps, giving up the sub makes the maps actually EASIER. Since it allows you to compact your build and focus the firepower. As long as your skyguards are sharded for range, and with enough power, it will melt stuff.


I dont think losing a sub objective is meant to make a map easier. At least it shouldn't. But maps like Assault of throne room are, effectively easier, since you gotta place the skyguards anyway for Kobolds spawns.

I think losing a sub objective is SOMETIMES meant to make the map easier.  After all, you get bonus exp for keeping up the sub objectives.  Shouldn't the option that gives more exp be the harder one, in a logical reward system?  

Of course it's not that simple.  Sometimes the maps become harder as well, but that is also for a natural reason of adding the pressure to your resource management to protect the subobjectives, not just a reward for doing so.  But the fact that some subobjectives are worth saving and some aren't also seems like a natural, slightly chaotic element of the game that simply asks you to figure out for yourself.

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Depending on the defense combinations you utilize, the above can be a negligible quirk or a serious source of frustration.

If you've invested a lot of effort into a certain combination of defenses, and/or are reluctant to switch things up, and/or only play multiplayer, and/or inherently believe quirky game mechanics impugn on your enjoyment, then you won't have the impulse to 'creatively' address these issues.

If none of the above apply to you, then you'll experiment enough to realise that these can all be countered with either a change in defense setup, a change in shard usage, and/or a change in usage of active hero dps.

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Greystone Plaza want an issue for me even just breaking into C7.  You can easily use three flame auras around the spawn and two sky guards if needed.  The rest of the lanes are easy enough that the extra DU on one lane isn't a problem. 

Bastille is a problem though on C6.  Similar, I think, to the power surge incursion on C5.  Just poor design that needs tweaked so you don't lose to stupid mechanics. 

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@Kruntski quote:

Are they annoying game breaking issues or challenges?  Except for the west gate on plaza, I don't think they need attention as you can work around them using different tower strategies.   Bastille might be considered a difficult map but they give you so much DU that you can just throw more towers at any problems you have.

I just feel that it makes the game more boring if every map plays very similar.   

See this is the problem, why do everyone assume the new players have all the shards ready for each chaos? For not having Ev2 for C6 is going to be hell for the new players but hey you gotta grind all day maybe 2-3 days just to past one chaos. I had trouble from doing chaos 1-4 once I got power transfer thats when it got pretty easy, which makes no sense since you need particular shards just to do chaos but let me not rant cause ill get "git gud" responses. Its a free game that wants you to pay for heroes or even shards just to be okay at particular chaos lol 

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Shards easily make/break the game. Purchasable characters less so.

source: full play through for me from Campaign > C7 clear with just the original 4 heroes whilst under Ascension 160 (would've been lower if not fer them meddling kids for the double XP weekend!).

Of course, if you are not prepared to grind out / purchase shard packs, then purchasable characters can make things easier (read: less frustrating).

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There's a lot of good feedback and opinions posted here, but the issues that I'm seeing from [[19416,users]] 's post are:

- Hex throwers cheesing on certain maps
- Spawn protection needing to be adjusted to match the visual indicator.
- Mobs taking weird routes, or bugging through (in sewers, was that what was happening) through and up walls to get to the core.  Either way, things not rewarding to build for and having to almost fail the first time, because it's not something you'd expect.
- Attacking from spawn is an issue in certain places where building optimally to protect cores and sub-objectives.

The kobolds exploding shortly after leaving, I think that's fine, but are they activating their charge inside of the spawn?  There may be some issues it comes to getting some of these things resolved that have more underlying issues, but let me know if the four points I listed there are things I interpreted incorrectly, or if that's more or less correct.

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@Lawlta quote:

There's a lot of good feedback and opinions posted here, but the issues that I'm seeing from plasma 's post are:

- Hex throwers cheesing on certain maps
- Spawn protection needing to be adjusted to match the visual indicator.
- Mobs taking weird routes, or bugging through (in sewers, was that what was happening) through and up walls to get to the core.  Either way, things not rewarding to build for and having to almost fail the first time, because it's not something you'd expect.
- Attacking from spawn is an issue in certain places where building optimally to protect cores and sub-objectives.

The kobolds exploding shortly after leaving, I think that's fine, but are they activating their charge inside of the spawn?  There may be some issues it comes to getting some of these things resolved that have more underlying issues, but let me know if the four points I listed there are things I interpreted incorrectly, or if that's more or less correct.

Not Plasma but I think you got most of it. 

I don't agree that Kobold insta-rage is fine. If it was on a tower that's one thing, but for example the upper left lane of Greystone Plaza which I'm pretty sure he mentioned, is terrible for them. They come out the gate and immediately rage at the sub objective. The only way to deal is to have a stupid amount of damage which you don't get until later in the tier with gear, or to physically block it with a blockade that's off the side of the lane to intercept as they dive in on that sub objective. They don't even see the wall, we're just lucky that walls are just tall enough to intercept. There are probably a couple more but I'm not even a coffee in so others can fill in the rest.

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@Lawlta quote:

- Hex throwers cheesing on certain maps
- Spawn protection needing to be adjusted to match the visual indicator.

this is a combined issue, hex throwers have a very long range that is fine and should effect your choice of building location. However some maps they attack from spawn.. which would be fine if they took damage. Sometimes the spawn gives them some weird protection, other times not.



@Lawlta quote:

- Mobs taking weird routes, or bugging through (in sewers, was that what was happening) through and up walls to get to the core.  Either way, things not rewarding to build for and having to almost fail the first time, because it's not something you'd expect.

In all my time played (over 3.5k hours) I would say the only weird routes taken by enemies are skeletons minions and the Slekeleon boss. Berserker Orcs only take odd routes on corners (they cut corners a bit) and on blockades in some very niche situations.

The problem with Skeletons/Slekeleons they will walk either way down a lane, they take bizzare routes off cliffs on some maps (sewers top left lane, from spawn pov) only if the lane is packed though, Graystone plaza close right hand lane (spawn pov) they walk to the mana chest to their right directly outside their spawn. Crumbling bullwark they can walk the wrong way down the back lane (from left to right) behind the altar area (spawn pov), Bastille we all know this one and easy to solve. Some of these pathing issues are not a problem (graystone/bullwark), but im trying to show example of wonky AI. 

In addition to this some lanes cause kobolds to skip out of the lane and go directly for the core, this can actually happen in 3 out of the 4 lanes on the sewers map. Sadly this really restricts the building choices on this map as you pretty much have to spawn build each lane to prevent such things happening. More damage output also stops these bugs from happening, as monsters don't build up and then start doing crazy things.

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@Zimmermann quote:
@Lawlta quote:

- Mobs taking weird routes, or bugging through (in sewers, was that what was happening) through and up walls to get to the core.  Either way, things not rewarding to build for and having to almost fail the first time, because it's not something you'd expect.

In all my time played (over 3.5k hours) I would say the only weird routes taken by enemies are skeletons minions and the Slekeleon boss. Berserker Orcs only take odd routes on corners (they cut corners a bit) and on blockades in some very niche situations.

Berserks like to make use of the entire width of the lane Emoji_LadyOrc.png

Just as an add-on that I'm sure some people dont know is that Geodes actually take corners as closely as possible. It's been my downfall a few times using traps and these Geodes will take the least corner possible with their relatively tiny hitbox. Not so much an issue, just something interesting to note. core_forum_Icon.png (not a geode but I didnt see a Geode emote on the forums Lawlta get on it thx)

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chiming in to say that the janky hex thrower aiming is also true for normal javelin throwers, sometimes they be aiming at a wall and their aiming will be off potentially hitting a core behind them, seemed like this was exacerbated by dryad trees


also whats up with this?

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@Zimmermann quote:

this is a combined issue, hex throwers have a very long range that is fine and should effect your choice of building location. However some maps they attack from spawn.. which would be fine if they took damage. Sometimes the spawn gives them some weird protection, other times not.

One of the images shown actually shows the purple indicator in one area, and mobs not taking damage until a good while outside of the spawn.  The hex thrower issue I listed as separate, because I believe they were showing that even when in the correct spawn box, they are able to attack.

The kobolds exploding message I listed, was wanting to know if they are activating their packs after leaving the safe zone, or if they are activating inside the safe zone and then charging out.  If the former, I think that's fine as you should see them coming on the map, and try to react to them.  If the latter, that would be frustrating to deal with.

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@SidewalkHero quote:

In all my time played (over 3.5k hours) I would say the only weird routes taken by enemies are skeletons minions and the Slekeleon boss. Berserker Orcs only take odd routes on corners (they cut corners a bit) and on blockades in some very niche situations.

Berserks like to make use of the entire width of the lane Emoji_LadyOrc.png

Just as an add-on that I'm sure some people dont know is that Geodes actually take corners as closely as possible. It's been my downfall a few times using traps and these Geodes will take the least corner possible with their relatively tiny hitbox. Not so much an issue, just something interesting to note. core_forum_Icon.png (not a geode but I didnt see a Geode emote on the forums Lawlta get on it thx)

The day has come.  Responding to SWH on the forums, I did it.

Geodes cutting corners, get me a video of this if you could just to help add proof, as it's something that I haven't seen (which could be me being blind, or it just not getting posted.

As for the geode emote, we tried to add one, but it just reflected the change and turned us into the geode emotes.  Typing is much harder now.

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@Lawlta quote:


@SidewalkHero quote:

In all my time played (over 3.5k hours) I would say the only weird routes taken by enemies are skeletons minions and the Slekeleon boss. Berserker Orcs only take odd routes on corners (they cut corners a bit) and on blockades in some very niche situations.

Berserks like to make use of the entire width of the lane Emoji_LadyOrc.png

Just as an add-on that I'm sure some people dont know is that Geodes actually take corners as closely as possible. It's been my downfall a few times using traps and these Geodes will take the least corner possible with their relatively tiny hitbox. Not so much an issue, just something interesting to note. core_forum_Icon.png (not a geode but I didnt see a Geode emote on the forums Lawlta get on it thx)

The day has come.  Responding to SWH on the forums, I did it.

Geodes cutting corners, get me a video of this if you could just to help add proof, as it's something that I haven't seen (which could be me being blind, or it just not getting posted.

As for the geode emote, we tried to add one, but it just reflected the change and turned us into the geode emotes.  Typing is much harder now.

Not cutting corners, just taking the most efficient route, the inside corner. I don't really think it's much of an issue at all.
Its the Greystone Part I mentioned a few comments ago I think you should look at again. Emoji_Orc.png

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What a joke.  Are you kidding me OP?

The new enemies are meant to challenge you and change the way you play the game.  You have to respond and adapt.  Don't give me this "poor design" bull, change the way you build!

So hexes have long range.  Build towers or auras in a place that will hit them, or place your walls around corners so they can't utilize their range.

So kobolds dive (sub)objectives.  Don't build in a place where them diving will cause them to hit the objective, or for your first example, place a decoy or an AA to counter them.  I NEVER have trouble with that spawn==>subobjective because I RESPONDED AND ADAPTED.

Some lanes force you to build sub-optimally.  SO BUILD SUBOPTIMALLY!  Not every lane can be a perfect snowflake, you have to make compromises if you want to win.

Honestly...

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The only time I am genuinely frustrated with hex throwers is when they abuse spawn protection, and there's literally no other place you can put your wall. There are several maps that have this issue, especially if you intend to protect sub-objectives.

  • Plaza and bastille, as many have mentioned before
  • A lot of the lanes in nimbus reach don't have a lot of curves, and if they do, it's right next to a relic. The upper-left lane that leads to the sub-core is particularly painful, because the only 1-barricade chokepoint in that lane is within the hex thrower's line of sight immediately exiting spawn.
  • Sewers southeast sub-core is also a problem. This is compounded by the overly large spawn protection out the door.
  • Several lanes in Dead Road are basically straight-shots with clear line of sight no matter where you put your walls

I'd love to see hex throwers not attack until they're at least several feet outside spawn protection so they're not throwing javelins through the invisible pink spawn protection shield.

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