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So Trendy notices a "problem" in DD2. That "problem" is that nobody uses projectile towers. They think the solution is to make projectiles stronger. And yet they leave all of the enemies that counter projectiles unchanged.

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You can keep making them stronger, but as long as we continue to be punished for using them, they will stay underused. You need to fix your chaos enemies first before you can fix this perceived "problem" of projectile towers not being used enough.


But if you want to stick to the plan of having enemies counter entire categories of defenses, then you don't get to act surprised when you see many of us are not using those defenses.

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I understand the frustration of not being able to use projectile towers on C7 and to some degree on other chaos modes too. But it was a design choice on C7 and no matter how much we will them to work, projectile towers are hard countered. I am convinced C8-9 will see EMP orc's and no vanguards/Goedes/EMP kobolds and we will end up only using projectile towers.

So for those of us who love Ballistas I guess we will have to wait :(

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Geodes and Cyborks were an awful decision that I still hate to this day. Keep killing the variety, it's apparently what everyone wants

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@zMiiChy quote:

Geodes and Cyborks were an awful decision that I still hate to this day. Keep killing the variety, it's apparently what everyone wants

Cyborks arent that bad to be honest. Quite often you can still place auras that will be out of their range. Geodes on the other hand...

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@ERRORNAME quote:


@zMiiChy quote:

Geodes and Cyborks were an awful decision that I still hate to this day. Keep killing the variety, it's apparently what everyone wants

Cyborks arent that bad to be honest. Quite often you can still place auras that will be out of their range. Geodes on the other hand...

I haven't been able to find a single way to place Wm or proton beam without them being completely disabled and then there's the huntress traps and any other trap (other than Dryad currently). I just don't understand why limiting what we can use is considered fun to some people. I'd rather be forced to come up with strategies but still be able to use all the different towers available to us. It is what it is, I guess. I hope enough complaining players will alter something but I don't expect much and will continue to play the game.

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@zMiiChy quote:


@ERRORNAME quote:


@zMiiChy quote:

Geodes and Cyborks were an awful decision that I still hate to this day. Keep killing the variety, it's apparently what everyone wants

Cyborks arent that bad to be honest. Quite often you can still place auras that will be out of their range. Geodes on the other hand...

I haven't been able to find a single way to place Wm or proton beam without them being completely disabled and then there's the huntress traps and any other trap (other than Dryad currently). I just don't understand why limiting what we can use is considered fun to some people. I'd rather be forced to come up with strategies but still be able to use all the different towers available to us. It is what it is, I guess. I hope enough complaining players will alter something but I don't expect much and will continue to play the game.

I mean, Diablo 3 altered quite a lot once enough complaints rolled in.  Even got the CEO of Blizzard to apologize, so I mean there is still hope for things to turn around.  The people that do not like the hard counters just need to keep pounding away that they are not fun and we are not happy with them.  Eventually it might get through and the change will happen.  Then it will be happy fun times for all that hate the current versions of the hard counter enemies.  As a side note, I don't really mind Vanguards (G/F that mains a Gunwitch hates vanguards), Berserkers or Hex Throwers, the rest need to be redesigned at the very least.

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One quick fix they can do is limit these hard counter mobs. Only a single hard counter enemy can spawn per wave/ every 2nd wave. It will be up to the player to actively seek that single enemy out and kill them. If they do it this way they can just make this enemy a mini boss.


This kinda already happens in chaos 5 where I noticed a single geode spawns on wave 4 or was that a bug...

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i love this thread lol

but ya see trendy? im not the only one, many more think the same, and now that you somehow managed to get in more people and they stayed long enough to see the hard-counters and then actually were people who make posts, they have come to speak lol

hard-counters need a change. To varify, the only actual legit "Hard-Counters" are Geodes, EMPOrcs, and at the very bottom of the list but still technically count since they hard-counter any type of penetrating tower, Vanguards.


We want challenge, REAL, challenge. These 3 hard-counters you have in every chaos level, that's not challenge, at all, not even in the slightest, it's just tyranny, dictatership, telling us what we can and cannot use. The mobs arent even hard, just dont use the towers, boom,they get face-rolled. So please. change the 3 hard-counters, give us challenge, not tyranny! :O

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      Quickest solution (without changing enemies(i want them change too)) for this problem for example make hard counters spawn limited amount lanes (2 random lane for dragonfall sewers for example)

    This way game encourges you build differently each different lane.(noy my unique idea)

    I really want challenge in this game too.Because nature of trials ,this game mode can't bring real challange.  I hope new onslaught brings real challange.

   Imagine this, 4 man party uses voice chat to communicate each other , must play as diffent roles (healer, tank, boss killer, wave killer, crown controller ,not just random heroes) enemies diffuculty will become so hard you almost use all your green mana to repairs.

I hope new onslaught could become very difficult in later raunds we call this mode dungeon souls Emoji_FlyingTNT.png

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My c7 half-afk build on every map is squire walls, weapon manufacturer, sky guards and CANON BALL TOWER. Where is the problem with those "projectile towers" ? Before canon balls I used poison dart and they worked too so... :D

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@Carrylex quote:

My c7 half-afk build on every map is squire walls, weapon manufacturer, sky guards and CANON BALL TOWER. Where is the problem with those "projectile towers" ? Before canon balls I used poison dart and they worked too so... :D

But wait! There's Weapons Manufacturer on your list.

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Sure they are different enemies who need different strategies. The only problem with projectile towers is that they are completly countered by geods or how they are called. But thats okay, isn't it ?

So mixing your build with different towers is the way to go !

I could switch wm to flame auras, explosive traps or anything else (don't know about flamethrower tower tho).

But in my opinion the very few projectile towers available to us are okay. Only thing I would like is more balance between those towers because there are for sure some towers that are much much stronger.

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@Carrylex quote:

My c7 half-afk build on every map is squire walls, weapon manufacturer, sky guards and CANON BALL TOWER. Where is the problem with those "projectile towers" ? Before canon balls I used poison dart and they worked too so... :D

Stopped reading as soon as I saw "weapon manufacturer"

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@Carrylex quote:

Sure they are different enemies who need different strategies. The only problem with projectile towers is that they are completly countered by geods or how they are called. But thats okay, isn't it ?

So mixing your build with different towers is the way to go !

I could switch wm to flame auras, explosive traps or anything else (don't know about flamethrower tower tho).

But in my opinion the very few projectile towers available to us are okay. Only thing I would like is more balance between those towers because there are for sure some towers that are much much stronger.

What if you did not want to use FA, WM, LSA or w/e other trap/aura?  With Geodes present once you get into and past C3, you can't just build with projectiles if you wanted to, therefore it limits what you can build.  Sure you can include a few projectile towers for fun, but that isn't what is primarily defending at that point, the auras or traps are, because as soon as the Geode comes out all the projectile towers are worthless, or killing themselves, or killing cores/sub-objectives.  Which having the loss happen just because you have some projectile towers which bounced a shot into your core/sub-objective is insanely frustrating, at least to me it is.  I've laughed before when it happens because I find it stupidly funny that you can literally put in a ton of work, building the defense, upgrading the defenses and then have an odd shot from a tower kill the core, why would the game designers think that would be fun?  It is not.  No offense intended to whoever created the Geode, but I wonder if they were high or something at the time.  I think it would be an easy fix to change from a reflect to a absorb, but then again I haven't done much programming, so maybe it would take a ton of work.  If it is an easy fix, then why not just do it and see how the community feels after?  Personally, I would find the games much more fun and satisfying, would finally be able to use the towers I want to instead of auras and traps.

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sadly if geodes were absorb instead of reflect, you'd still be unable to use the towers you want to. The shield is still a shield that prevents you from not only damaging the geode, but any mob around the geode. So you still cant just build whatever you want, you still HAVE to use some floor based trap/aura in your build for primary dmg. All you gain is no longer accidentally destroying your own towers or objectives with your own towers. That's it, still cant deal with mobs around geode so hello zerkers, hexers, etc wrecking our faces, completely safe from projectiles cause there is a geode there.


Same for EMPOrc, he doesnt reflect our aura/traps, he just stops them, but, hey, still cant use them, they'll just keep those traps from doing anything to not only themselves, but every other mob around them.

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@Jojozityjo quote:

sadly if geodes were absorb instead of reflect, you'd still be unable to use the towers you want to. The shield is still a shield that prevents you from not only damaging the geode, but any mob around the geode. So you still cant just build whatever you want, you still HAVE to use some floor based trap/aura in your build for primary dmg. All you gain is no longer accidentally destroying your own towers or objectives with your own towers. That's it, still cant deal with mobs around geode so hello zerkers, hexers, etc wrecking our faces, completely safe from projectiles cause there is a geode there.


Same for EMPOrc, he doesnt reflect our aura/traps, he just stops them, but, hey, still cant use them, they'll just keep those traps from doing anything to not only themselves, but every other mob around them.

Not if you change it to where, when the Geode absorbs XXX amount the shield goes down for XXX amount of time.  Then the projectile towers while being less able to do the damage to everything will get through given enough damage dealt and able to kill the stuff that was under the shield.  That being said, I would assume the Geodes shield health would have to be higher than the average creature, something more like a mini-boss in health, that also depends on how long the shield would go down for as well, if the shield only goes down for 2-3 seconds then the health would have to be lower than if the shield goes down for 5 or even 10 seconds.

Cyborks I've said should be changed to where they have an aura effect around them to reduce all aura/trap damage by 50% or something.  That way it's still negating a lot of the damage from the aura/trap but the aura/trap is still functioning and doing something.  At the same time, they could buff the health of the cybork and make it more dangerous because of that. 

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I like the idea of enemies be Resist to torrets, not literally Inmune to them. I think the real problem is the Geode, becouse the goblins with the shield make you to put your towers so they hit them from begin, and that is not bad at all, but geodes in other hand make this shield and make proyectiles useless, and is not even a "support boss", is like 2 or 3 of them in every lane, and actually is not that easy to kill.

If it appeared only in 1 lane at the time, you have the chance at least to focus them quickly and let your proyectile towers do something. I actually like the idea of the chaos enemies apper only in some lanes, and not in all of them, so you can put some tipes of towers in one lane, and other tipe of tower in other lanes

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@Jojozityjo quote:

sadly if geodes were absorb instead of reflect, you'd still be unable to use the towers you want to. The shield is still a shield that prevents you from not only damaging the geode, but any mob around the geode. So you still cant just build whatever you want, you still HAVE to use some floor based trap/aura in your build for primary dmg.

You could use whatever towers you want for primary damage, you would just need to drop a 20 DU snaking sands to stun the geode.

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Well see that's if the geodes shield had a health value, which i didnt see anything of the shield being destroyable, only people mostly saying it just absorbs instead of reflects. If the shield had a health value and didnt reflect, then you could pull off using whatever tower you want, even projectiles, it would just be harder on them than other towers.


So my last comment was towards people saying the geode "JUST" going from reflect to absorb, nothing else. Geode going from Reflect to Absorb, AND being able to have it's shield shot down, now that would help, that would actually make a small deference and allow more powerfully geared people to use whatever builds they want against them, even no aura/traps allowed builds.


Other notes, Vanguards are technically hard-counters. Not that big of one, but still hard-counter. Because they hard-counter penetrating towers. They cant be penetrated, from any side. So towers like the all famous ballista, is pretty harshly stunted against them, even if it hits them behind, it'll still hit the shield they are carrying and be stopped completely, so any other mob around the guy will remain safe until the Vanguard is dealt with. It doesnt help at all either when a vanguard comes out, he comes out with several shield-buddies to make a nice thicket gauntlet to have to work through before penetrating towers are useful again.

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@Jojozityjo quote:-Snip-

Other notes, Vanguards are technically hard-counters. Not that big of one, but still hard-counter. Because they hard-counter penetrating towers. They cant be penetrated, from any side. So towers like the all famous ballista, is pretty harshly stunted against them, even if it hits them behind, it'll still hit the shield they are carrying and be stopped completely, so any other mob around the guy will remain safe until the Vanguard is dealt with. It doesnt help at all either when a vanguard comes out, he comes out with several shield-buddies to make a nice thicket gauntlet to have to work through before penetrating towers are useful again.

I also suggested in the suggestion part of the forum that the Vanguards have there shields given a health pool, so that once they sustain so much damage the shield breaks.  Sure it would stop all attacks from the front until all the shields are gone, but at least the towers in front would eventually get through.  Would basically turn them into a soft counter.  And I would also think for the shield health it should be probably something like a mini-boss in health.  Haven't really looked much at the health pools of the enemies so not going to state some random ###.

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@Argonias quote:


@Jojozityjo quote:-Snip-

Other notes, Vanguards are technically hard-counters. Not that big of one, but still hard-counter. Because they hard-counter penetrating towers. They cant be penetrated, from any side. So towers like the all famous ballista, is pretty harshly stunted against them, even if it hits them behind, it'll still hit the shield they are carrying and be stopped completely, so any other mob around the guy will remain safe until the Vanguard is dealt with. It doesnt help at all either when a vanguard comes out, he comes out with several shield-buddies to make a nice thicket gauntlet to have to work through before penetrating towers are useful again.

I also suggested in the suggestion part of the forum that the Vanguards have there shields given a health pool, so that once they sustain so much damage the shield breaks.  Sure it would stop all attacks from the front until all the shields are gone, but at least the towers in front would eventually get through.  Would basically turn them into a soft counter.  And I would also think for the shield health it should be probably something like a mini-boss in health.  Haven't really looked much at the health pools of the enemies so not going to state some random ###.

That's a pretty good idea. Would really like to see that. Though this is really similar to the idea of Geodes absorbing blast, unless they do recharge after their "force field' was broken. That would make a harder and a different version of Vanguards.

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@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:


@Argonias quote:


@Jojozityjo quote:-Snip-

Other notes, Vanguards are technically hard-counters. Not that big of one, but still hard-counter. Because they hard-counter penetrating towers. They cant be penetrated, from any side. So towers like the all famous ballista, is pretty harshly stunted against them, even if it hits them behind, it'll still hit the shield they are carrying and be stopped completely, so any other mob around the guy will remain safe until the Vanguard is dealt with. It doesnt help at all either when a vanguard comes out, he comes out with several shield-buddies to make a nice thicket gauntlet to have to work through before penetrating towers are useful again.

I also suggested in the suggestion part of the forum that the Vanguards have there shields given a health pool, so that once they sustain so much damage the shield breaks.  Sure it would stop all attacks from the front until all the shields are gone, but at least the towers in front would eventually get through.  Would basically turn them into a soft counter.  And I would also think for the shield health it should be probably something like a mini-boss in health.  Haven't really looked much at the health pools of the enemies so not going to state some random ###.

That's a pretty good idea. Would really like to see that. Though this is really similar to the idea of Geodes absorbing blast, unless they do recharge after their "force field' was broken. That would make a harder and a different version of Vanguards.

Well, that is kinda what I thought, Vanguards once they lose the shield should pull a sword or something to do damage with.  They use the tower shields to close the gap, then when the shields drop they pull out the heavier damage weapons.  The Geode should just have a recharge time on the Absorb effect, so the shield would come back up if the Geode wasn't killed during the downtime.  Would both be interesting effects and make them more fun than the current versions are.

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