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PandynatorDD

Is Blaze balloon really OP? - FA Vs Blaze

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@Ubara-tutu quote:

If you start nerfing towers based on overgeared endgame players, you will make it impossible for lower geared players to climb the chaos tiers.

Agreed, I run with my g/f all the time in this game and breaking into a new chaos tier is rough enough as it is because of the 25% health buff on enemies.  Using FA, SGT, and an assortment of other towers (trying to figure out what works), the two of us are having a bit of difficulty breaking into C7 from C6, having towards the end of C6 gear.  No, we didn't max every item out (everything, for the most part, is within 10 gold sell value of the max C6 gear), but weapons are maxed and a couple key relics (totem for wall, and a couple medallions).  It was enough breaking into every other chaos tier, with some difficulty.  Either way, lets not nerf towers based on overgeared endgame players.  If your max geared C7, everything in C7 should be easy, your geared enough to break into the next chaos tier, whenever that comes out. 

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@enigma007 quote:

Yeah, we shouldn't do that. Not sure why are we even changed the subject to talk about it. FA is a overperforming tower, endgame or not. We shouldn't compare BB to it.

Why shouldn't we compare BB to FA? They do a similar thing except that BB is just much worse at it. The problem is that BB doesn't have any unique functionality and it can only ever be viable if it does much more damage than a flame aura. You would have to justify the reduced range, the inability to hit air, the 60 DU cost, and the triggering mechanism. Instead of directly competing against FA and WM, it should bring something unique to the table. I am fond of the DoT idea.

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@iamisom quote:

Great feedback! What would you suggest we change about the Blaze Balloon to help give it its own role from something like Flame Auras?

I wanted to hold my comments about it until someone else made a post but I noticed in the patch notes it said the old 22.5 defense multiplier and that was actually its old crit multiplier.   

Anyway, I think the dot idea is great that other people suggested and maybe add a snare?  

Another other option that would be more work, but I think would be better in the long run is to make bosses more powerful so we have to use something other than flame auras/WM to kill them.  Maybe give Bosses an innate 50-75% resistance to most AOE towers except for Blaze Balloon along with other single target towers which will still damage them for full damage.   Not sure how well that would work, but might be fun to try. 

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Don't we have enough fire in the game already? 

Why not scrap the BB and create a new trap? 

How about something that traps fliers?

Possibly making towers more viable in C7?

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So we are comparing now a trap, a defence that damages only ground targets, to an aura, a defence that targets flying and ground targets.

When a defence that targets only ground, its whole dps goes only to ground targets

When a defence that targets both ground and air, its dps is not distributed equally and undivided to both ground and air.

If a defence that targets air and ground produces x dps in total, then air dps is x-ground and ground x-air, full dps to one or the other exists only when ground or air is not present.

So the comparison is not always true, it is true when referred to only ground targets

If we remove ability to hit air from aura, first we buff it against ground targets, because all of that dps passes to ground targets only, and we limit even more the choices for anti-air.

Ubara-tutu is right we should stop thinking only from a standpoint of max players, think of the people still struggling, for them the game is not the same, and hopefully Trendy still does when thinking of balancing

I think the best solution, if any alterations are needed, is the addition of DoT, as I think all huntress Defences should have some sort of DoT or slow to make them stand out even more, by keeping the same DU so it doesn't become spammable, only a very good solution against ground mobs, for 1 per lane.

Rebalancing the FA is a whole other issue, lets not mix it with this

not having enough content for max players, and lacking of challenges, is again a whole different issue, lets not mix it with this.

The point at hand is, and should be, does the Blaze Balloon, require more love? Forget about FA, forget about maxed gear damage, and lack of challenge.

As a defence, is it doing its job? Is it viable?

In my opinion yes, with the addition of DoT it will become even more viable, especially if you couple it with an oil geyser, or anything else that oils enemies, and gets elemental combo i.e. flask from huntress etc.

Maybe even to make stand out a bit more, make the initial damage of fire fallen on enemies when the balloon pops, have a bit higher damage from the fire laying on the ground burning enemies and applying the DoT, to show like real fire would, when it is hotter when it falls, and it cools of when it is on the ground, just an idea

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Instead of Nerfing FA's (which is not the topic here imho ) why not BUFF the other towers? >_>.

I mean, Look at Fissure's.  The moment they stopped being immune to cyborks, they be gone and so was the lavamancer as viable DPS. For a Tower/aura that can't hit Air I would say the Immunity ( or at least resistance) was well deserved.


Balloons also need some love. We saw that with the dropped cost, Lightning Aura became viable and useful as well. So why not the same?


I've said a lot about endgamers dictating the course of balance before even the trial's patch. And at the time, I was shot down for being a bad player, yet comments on how easy C7 is are still a thing when people try to have an honest discussion about something that is clearly broken. 

One of the main issues will always be Ascension since even with the cap, the more people play, the easier the content becomes to the point that they've grinded so much even if with lousy gear, that the system allows them to actually get content done. Instead of an upgrading game it's more a war of attrition.


Ballons need love, Fissures need love. 


The Dryad changes were a great step in the right direction. Hornet are super fun to use now even If I cannot for the life of me understand how FLYING BEE's cannot attack FLYING enemies. >_>

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@enigma007 quote:

enigma007 quote:

FA is a overperforming tower, endgame or not.

A bald assertion does not make it so. My experience with climbing the tiers was the same as [[48851,users]] above. If they were overpowered, it would be a breeze moving to the next tier. And I only ever had a chance going to the next chaos tier by farming the previous one until I had near perfect relics (RNG hates me). That is really boring and will frustrate the average player who will quit and this nice little game will die.

The solution is added extra end game content with extreme challenges and a way for a player to dial it up to whatever difficult they'd like. I think awarding more points for for the extra difficulty and adding leaderboards like in DD1 would be reward enough. Maybe even think about dropping one piece of legendary gear per extreme challenge win that has its range of possible values reduced so it is closer to perfect.

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Why does everyone want Blaze Balloon to do a DoT? Huntress already has a defense that does a DoT, and that other one has super long range and can target flying enemies. Why does she need another, small area, slow firing, ground-only, DoT?


If it costs double the DU then it has to be better at something.
If it can't target flying enemies, then it has to be better at something.
If it has a cooldown period where it can't attack at all, then it has to be better at something.
If it doesn't deal any damage at all until an enemy enters a tiny trigger radius, then it has to better at something.
If it only covers 64% as much area, then it has to be better at something.
If it deals less damage, then it has to be better at something.
If it has worse upgrade scaling, then it has to be better at something.
If it is more vulnerable to being disabled, then it has to be better at something.

Nobody is saying it should be identical to Flame Aura. Instead, Flame Aura and Blaze Balloon should both have their own benefits and drawbacks. As it stands today Blaze Balloon is just bad at everything.

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@iamisom quote:

Great feedback! What would you suggest we change about the Blaze Balloon to help give it its own role from something like Flame Auras?

My two cents is to change it entirely.  Make the blimps spawn every 12-15 seconds and they pick a random tower in it's range (3500?) to heal.  The heal does up to 35% health restored or some such (as a max) to not be too OP (or even less).

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

Why does everyone want Blaze Balloon to do a DoT?

This. Seriously. We can add a DoT on top of other changes maybe... But that alone won't really be enough to make it stick out from the flame aura to me. Cmon people! We got a balloon that doesn't actually go anywhere after it floats out of the ground! Get creative!

Why are me and Kambien the only suggestions I see other than a DoT? :(

Also... 

@Fozzie quote:

Blazing Phoenix once had a great effect when it travelled along the ground.

I forgot about that. On top of my suggestion to make the balloons float in a direction... I'd also like to add the change to the sphere that when the balloons reach max distance or find their enemy, the pheonix flies out in the direction the drift is facing. Thanks for the reminder Fozzie!

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Maybe Blazing Phoenix could be a default built in effect on the Blaze Balloon (no shard required) and the Blazing Phoenix Shard can be changed so that it causes the phoenix to explode in the sky and rain down burning oil in a an AoE that ignites all enemies below (including any flying enemies that might be below the phoenix)

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@iamisom quote:

Great feedback! What would you suggest we change about the Blaze Balloon to help give it its own role from something like Flame Auras?

@xArcAngel quote:

So it's a balloon right? But it acts no different than the traps that are on the ground? So why don't we let it float on with its day. Make the base spawn balloons at some rate, and have them drift forward in a line from there, droping their little birdy bombs when they reach max flight distance or find an enemy?

Fairly short path that is unaffected by gambit (say 1500-2k range?). Maybe a static 2 second delay for balloons, since the burn rate scales with speed already and we don't want multiplicative speed scaling (though that might of been a cool use for orbs if speed didn't cap so fast...).

Thoughts anyone?

I like this, if we're on the same page...

I'm imagining you place it and it has a relatively long and narrow directional cone similar to PDT or Ramster. It spawns balloons that float up and in that direction, and the balloons drop bombs below. I'm thinking of something  similar to how the projectile of the Monk's Terraria weapon works, except instead of snowing down from it, it drops fire bombs that deal aoe damage over time.


And building on top of that, each balloon could carry 3 or 4 bombs, dropping them periodically at set intervals, at the end of its path the balloon pops, dropping the last bomb. Or you can shoot the balloon with a projectile to pop it wherever it is in its path and drop all of the remaining bombs right where it is. Then the player would have to choice of spreading out the damage over the whole lane or trying to focus more of the damage closer. you would sacrifice lane coverage in order to do more damage closer, but it would require hero interaction in order to achieve that, so it would have to be a situational decision to focus on popping balloons or just letting it do its own thing while you take care of other areas of the map.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

-snip-

I was actually thinking of a literal broad straight line that was as wide as the trigger radius, where they dropped them whenever they found something, or at the end if they found nothing lol. But past that, yeah, pretty much :P

I'd also love either implementation, but I'm kinda favoring your 3-4 bomb idea though. The concept of being able to shoot it to multi-bomb an area sounds awesome!

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@xArcAngel quote:

I was actually thinking of a literal broad straight line that was as wide as the trigger radius

Yeah, that makes sense, and is what I was imagining in my head. I don't know why I said cone.


@iamisom quote:

Great feedback! What would you suggest we change about the Blaze Balloon to help give it its own role from something like Flame Auras?

Another possibility for a Blaze Balloon remake would be making it function like Angry Nimbus, but the difference would be that Angry Nimbus has a powerful, fast, direct damage, single-target attack that rains down on enemies.

The Blaze Balloon could have similar behavior where it floats around in a large circular aoe and rains down on enemies, but totally different attack style where it has a slower rate of fire, dropping bombs, for aoe dot damage instead of single target direct damage.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:
@xArcAngel quote:

So it's a balloon right? But it acts no different than the traps that are on the ground? So why don't we let it float on with its day. Make the base spawn balloons at some rate, and have them drift forward in a line from there, droping their little birdy bombs when they reach max flight distance or find an enemy?

Fairly short path that is unaffected by gambit (say 1500-2k range?). Maybe a static 2 second delay for balloons, since the burn rate scales with speed already and we don't want multiplicative speed scaling (though that might of been a cool use for orbs if speed didn't cap so fast...).

Thoughts anyone?

I like this, if we're on the same page...

I'm imagining you place it and it has a relatively long and narrow directional cone similar to PDT or Ramster. It spawns balloons that float up and in that direction, and the balloons drop bombs below. I'm thinking of something  similar to how the projectile of the Monk's Terraria weapon works, except instead of snowing down from it, it drops fire bombs that deal aoe damage over time.


And building on top of that, each balloon could carry 3 or 4 bombs, dropping them periodically at set intervals, at the end of its path the balloon pops, dropping the last bomb. Or you can shoot the balloon with a projectile to pop it wherever it is in its path and drop all of the remaining bombs right where it is. Then the player would have to choice of spreading out the damage over the whole lane or trying to focus more of the damage closer. you would sacrifice lane coverage in order to do more damage closer, but it would require hero interaction in order to achieve that, so it would have to be a situational decision to focus on popping balloons or just letting it do its own thing while you take care of other areas of the map.

You want Blaze balloon should be like this , right ?




It will be awesome if blaze balloon work like that.

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Personally I like the idea of bombing stuff in a straight line...  The only problem is that not many lanes are completely straight, which would negate the BB's use on those maps/areas.  That being said, making the BB similar to the C&C's Kirov is an amazing idea to me. 

I would say that, other than the PDT, the huntress has limited AA options.  So maybe, redesign the BB to help more against air.  Maybe something like the trap has a large radius similar to the skyguard and make it spawn balloons that fly up into incoming air units, dealing aoe damage and/or a DoT effect instead of the single target that the skyguard does, when air units get into that radius.  That would add at least another AA tower into the game and give it to one of the heroes that has rather limited options for dealing with air, other than PDT or shooting it themselves. 

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@iamisom quote:

Great feedback! What would you suggest we change about the Blaze Balloon to help give it its own role from something like Flame Auras?

The issue being discussed here expands well beyond BB/FA. It is not a balance issue at all, and I appreciate your verbiage in looking for recommendations to give it its own role.

What the team has done there at Trendy is homogenized almost all the defenses to operate similarly. Some specific examples of defense homogenization:

  • Arcane barrier used to have an interesting game mechanic of exploding (damaging enemies) and having downtime. The issue is that enemies started surviving the explosion, letting them through. The answer? Homogenize the defense, as opposed to making the unique trait more effective. I would love to see the arcane barrier's explosion cripple even bosses and have decent explosion radius, at the cost of a few second's downtime. Instead we have a mediocre barrier that has no advantage to other walls, and no one ever uses them.
  • Weapon Manufacturer used to have an interesting game mechanic of a pickup the EV could use - the problem is that they still (even after the latest patch) deal peanuts for damage, and the mega death laser takes like 10 seconds to fire. Rather than focusing on the utility of this defense, it has been made into a generic AoE tower that currently has no advantage over flame aura. I would love to see pickups deal 100M+ damage (literally one-shot anything), allow other EV players to use pickups, and drastically reduce (even outright remove) direct aura damage.
  • Earthshatter used to be a long-distance AoE, but it could not reliably keep up with the damage output of other defenses. The answer? Homogenize it to have an increased attack rate, rather than continuing to capitalize on its unique traits - a super slow AoE rock of destruction that does not need line-of-sight to its target. I would much rather have a crazy damaging earthshatter where I would build defenses to capitalize on its damage output (e.g. build AoE defenses near spawn so fodder would be killed). Slow, powerful, destructive.
  • PDT: Once a unique mechanic where it focused on poison DoT. The DoT didn't feel damaging enough a long time ago, so the answer was to buff the darts directly (rather than focusing on the unique DoT mechanic). When PDT's were very first introduced, they were used next to spawn to soften up enemies by the time they reached your walls. It was unique and interesting, whereas now it's all about the direct dart damage, and that's pretty much it. They're now just another tower you place behind your walls, without any need to cleverly position them to maximize their effectiveness.

These are just a few examples where Trendy has consciously made defenses more similar to each other, causing them to step on each other's toes. This accentuates the core issue of significant defense overlap, where multiple towers fulfill the exact same role.

  • Out of: Explosive traps, blaze balloons, flame auras, oil geysers, fissures, and weapon manufacturers. Players are automatically going to use the highest damage/DU. That used to be explosive traps, then it became weapon manufacturers, and now it's flame auras. What needs to happen is these defenses need their unique perks increased, leaving only one direct damage defense. My suggestion would be for explosives to have a chance to stun, blaze balloons have DoT, flame auras be the direct damage dealer, oil geysers slow, remove damage and green mana cost from fissures (making them mana nodes so an AP lavamancer can actually DPS), and weapon manufacturers focus on pickup (as mentioned above).
  • Out of: Cannonball, earthshatter, poison dart, bone archers, sand viper, and harpy. Same deal - highest DPS/DU will always win. Instead, make cannonball your generic damage, earthshatter the slow shattering powerhouse that doesn't need LoS, poison dart focus on DoT, bone archers get a significant damage bonus if they're both firing at the same time, and make sand viper's damage ramp-up max at ludicrously high levels if locked onto the same target long enough.

MOST IMPORTANT: After each tower has its unique defining trait, some defenses are going to rise to the top - don't homogenize them again. Arcane barrier still not being used? Crank up that explosion damage, make it one-shot ogres. People not using WM's? Continue to crank up the damage of the pickup. Bone archers seldom used? Crank up that damage bonus when both archers are firing, NOT their base damage. Eventually the utility of a defense will be appealing enough for some people to start using it over its generic damaging counterpart. Balancing a defense's unique trait will be a lot more rewarding for players, and make it easier to balance everything in the long run.

So to wrap up my wall of text, what do I think should be done with Blaze balloons? The suggestions of a fire DoT rings pretty true for me. I also like the idea of the balloon wandering an area as opposed to being stationary. Most importantly though, if after the new mechanic is introduced and it's still not used comparatively even with other AoE towers, increase the effectiveness of the new mechanic and not the direct damage.

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@Argonias quote:

Personally I like the idea of bombing stuff in a straight line...  The only problem is that not many lanes are completely straight, which would negate the BB's use on those maps/areas.  That being said, making the BB similar to the C&C's Kirov is an amazing idea to me. 

To me, the idea of a defense not being as good on certain maps is actually a GOOD thing. I think that's ultimately the way some towers should be. You should either position it in a place that it excels at, or find a tower that excels at the position your in, rather than using the same defense for everything.

As far as making Blaze Balloon an anti-air tower... Thematically, idk if I could get behind it being AA only... But it's a cool concept!

@gigazelle quote:

-snip-

Some days you seem like the great pumpkin... You just show up and make great proclamations, only to disappear back into the mysteries of legend o.o

That aside... 120% agree on everything other than the DoT. That I only agree like 70% on... The idea of adding a DoT to the balloon is nice, but by itself I don't think provides enough to make it unique personally.

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@PandynatorDD quote:


@iamisom quote:

Great feedback! What would you suggest we change about the Blaze Balloon to help give it its own role from something like Flame Auras?

Make it apply a DoT.

or slow enemies

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@gigazelle quote:
  • Earthshatter used to be a long-distance AoE, but it could not reliably keep up with the damage output of other defenses. The answer? Homogenize it to have an increased attack rate, rather than continuing to capitalize on its unique traits - a super slow AoE rock of destruction that does not need line-of-sight to its target. I would much rather have a crazy damaging earthshatter where I would build defenses to capitalize on its damage output (e.g. build AoE defenses near spawn so fodder would be killed). Slow, powerful, destructive.

It is actually pretty fantastic now as a single target fast-firing mob launcher (0.75s, 100% into the air). Surprisingly, it is very good at making sure mobs don't make it far from the spawn point even in public. However, I would love to see it as a slow firing massive AoE damaging earth-splitter.

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Just to be clear: It has been a very long time since Earthshatter was an AoE tower. I don't want anyone reading this and thinking oh in this one patch they changed it from a massive slow AoE to a fast single target tower. AoE was removed from it a long time ago. Before this last update it was a slow single target tower.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

Why does everyone want Blaze Balloon to do a DoT? Huntress already has a defense that does a DoT, and that other one has super long range and can target flying enemies. Why does she need another, small area, slow firing, ground-only, DoT?

PDT is a projectile. 

Blaze balloon is not not a projectile.

How do you do consistent and reliable damage vs projectile blocking enemies as a Huntress? You do not currently. 

Making it a STRONGER DoT than the PDT. With the new PDT nerfs, I have not tested them but from the sounds of them they should be more balanced. And having a trap that affects a way smaller area and applying a DoT does not sound like a bad idea for the Blaze Balloon.

It fits its theme perfectly. It literally drops burning oil or whatever it is that the balloon contains onto enemies.. 

Why would it not apply a DoT to them from a thematic stand point?

People may want something else for the Huntress.. But how many traps in the game do we have that applies a DoT?

Yup, we have exactly ZERO.


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@Elyssae quote:

Instead of Nerfing FA's (which is not the topic here imho ) why not BUFF the other towers? >_>.

This. Nerfing makes the game boring.



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I test blaze balloon with power transfer+vicious strike+deadly strikes with help of oil geyser they did a great job.Blaze's damage is fine but its range is too low.Simple buff like this makes blaze balloon very valid tower.

  • Increase base range from 600 to 750
  • When balloon fall to ground it stun enemies short duration(like 0.25-1 second) second in small range(like trigger range).

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