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PandynatorDD

Is Blaze balloon really OP? - FA Vs Blaze

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Flame Vs. Fire! Emoji_TNT.pngdemon.pngEmoji_TNT.png


                                         Blaze Balloon                                                        Flame Aura

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  • So these numbers are from tavern. 
  • The Blaze Balloon popped instantly on CD. 
  • Flame Aura ofc attacked as usual. 
  • They are both T5.

So they got similar DPS... When they are active...

Flame Aura hits AIR, Blaze Balloon does NOT.

Flame Aura hits 10 targets within its RANGE. Blaze Balloon does not, until it IS TRIGGERED.

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Range comparison: 
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So you can, and probably have experienced it.. If you have actually played the game. Lady Orcs will walk right past these twice as expensive flame "auras"  barely taking any damage due to the small trigger range.

As you can see above, the 60 DU Blaze Balloon and the Flame Aura deal the same DPS.

But Blaze Balloon costs twice as much DU as the Flame Aura.

lawlta iamisom dani


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Great feedback! What would you suggest we change about the Blaze Balloon to help give it its own role from something like Flame Auras?

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@PandynatorDD quote:


@iamisom quote:

Great feedback! What would you suggest we change about the Blaze Balloon to help give it its own role from something like Flame Auras?

Make it apply a DoT.

This. Blaze Baloon seems like a tower that should apply decent damage to those within the flames but not comparable to other area defenses like flame aura, sacrificing some of its power for a DoT effect that results in a larger total damage dealt. It would be ideal for longer paths to wear down mobs or knock out stuff like Kobolds without needing 3-4 FA to accomplish the same effect. It would require mobs stay alive long enough to really see the damage toll out and it would require a long enough route (frosty/etc. could couple with this to help). If stuff is able to reach walls fast enough this is not the defense to use. If stuff can be delayed long enough it can really wear down targets. It would couple very well with a FA or PDT to weed out squishies and let core towers (especially more powerful single target towers and Geysers/CC) deal with the tougher enemies that do reach walls. The actual damage would be up for question and the effect of the Phoenix may have to change to better suit this nature. With proper tuning it wouldn't be a PDT scenario all over again (limited range, placement importance, how it spreads and bonus damage from explosions that PDT had, and other issues that separate the two).

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@PandynatorDD quote:

-snip-

Awesome comparison!

Side notes for thought:

  • Flame Aura has a big range advantage in part because it has a better base range scaler. To be honest... I wish more of the AOE towers had the same range scaler. Slightly weaker than single target, but still makes gambit feel rewarding.
  • T5 vs T5 comparison has a SLIGHT bias, as the flame aura has I believe the 2nd best upgrade rate in the game, where as I'm pretty sure Blaze Balloon has one of, if not the worst (for a DPS tower). Really wish upgrade rates would go back to being normalized personally...
@iamisom quote:

Great feedback! What would you suggest we change about the Blaze Balloon to help give it its own role from something like Flame Auras?

So it's a balloon right? But it acts no different than the traps that are on the ground? So why don't we let it float on with its day. Make the base spawn balloons at some rate, and have them drift forward in a line from there, droping their little birdy bombs when they reach max flight distance or find an enemy?

Fairly short path that is unaffected by gambit (say 1500-2k range?). Maybe a static 2 second delay for balloons, since the burn rate scales with speed already and we don't want multiplicative speed scaling (though that might of been a cool use for orbs if speed didn't cap so fast...).

Thoughts anyone?

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I've posted all of this in my thread about Blaze Balloon. But I just get people telling me to "try it" and "it doesn't need to be OP like Flame Aura to be useful"


I truly can't understand why Trendy continues to say that the Blaze Balloon hits hard and has high DPS. It doesn't. I proved it myself and the response was ok we'll fix it by lowering its DU cost and also nerfing its damage. There has to be some kind of disconnect somewhere. I cant comprehend how nerfing its damage was supposed to help it.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

I've posted all of this in my thread about Blaze Balloon. But I just get people telling me to "try it" and "it doesn't need to be OP like Flame Aura to be useful"

That was before the "balance patch", now we see that they haven't listened to it. So now we can give proper feedback.

Make a new thread, they won't go back to a old thread to look for feedback. 

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@PandynatorDD quote:
@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

I've posted all of this in my thread about Blaze Balloon. But I just get people telling me to "try it" and "it doesn't need to be OP like Flame Aura to be useful"

That was before the "balance patch", now we see that they haven't listened to it. So now we can give proper feedback.

Make a new thread, they won't go back to a old thread to look for feedback. 

No, those comments are from today.

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@iamisom quote:

Great feedback! What would you suggest we change about the Blaze Balloon to help give it its own role from something like Flame Auras?

my suggestions:

Drop its DU to 30 give the burning dot an additional slowing effect too. maybe make the dot last longer and maybe reduce the towers up front damage.

if the towers damage was nerfed a bit, it could be dropped to 20 and be a kind of utility tower with these effects too.

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@xArcAngel quote:
@PandynatorDD quote:

-snip-

  • T5 vs T5 comparison has a SLIGHT bias, as the flame aura has I believe the 2nd best upgrade rate in the game, where as I'm pretty sure Blaze Balloon has one of, if not the worst (for a DPS tower). Really wish upgrade rates would go back to being normalized personally... orbs if speed didn't cap so fast...).


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T1 here, both of them. 

Not sure if this helps or proves you wrong. 

At this point they are even. If you would stack two Flame Aura. 

Then again you ignore all the other points I made in the opening points, as have others done time and time again. 

It's not a discussion about DPS, it's about being a reliable tower.

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Comparing T5 is not biased because of one having a better upgrade rate than the other. It is important to show the difference in upgrade rate when comparing them. It only costs you 530 mana to build a T5 Flame Aura. It costs you 560 mana to build a T5 Blaze Balloon. Comparing upgraded values is totally valid thing to do because upgrading defenses in-game is a totally valid thing to do.

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@iamisom quote:

Great feedback! What would you suggest we change about the Blaze Balloon to help give it its own role from something like Flame Auras?

Could make it apply some kind of burn dot that reduces there defense to maybe, so can be combined with other towers for its dmg buff to enemies that have the burn dot.

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@PandynatorDD quote:

Not sure if this helps or proves you wrong. 

Not honestly sure if there was something to prove wrong o.o

Wasn't trying to contradict your results. I think your comparison was extremely fair and accurate. Defenses WILL get upgraded when they're being used, so it makes sense to compare them when upgraded. Was simply pointing out the differences in the upgrade rates for those that might want to consider it.

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If anyone can come with any single thing that Blaze Balloon has an advantage over Flame Aura, let me know, because Flame Aura is better in every single aspect that I can think of.

7IHh6NO.png

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@PandynatorDD quote:


@xArcAngel quote:
@PandynatorDD quote:

-snip-

  • T5 vs T5 comparison has a SLIGHT bias, as the flame aura has I believe the 2nd best upgrade rate in the game, where as I'm pretty sure Blaze Balloon has one of, if not the worst (for a DPS tower). Really wish upgrade rates would go back to being normalized personally... orbs if speed didn't cap so fast...).


6NWaWpM.jpg


T1 here, both of them. 

Not sure if this helps or proves you wrong. 

At this point they are even. If you would stack two Flame Aura. 

Then again you ignore all the other points I made in the opening points, as have others done time and time again. 

It's not a discussion about DPS, it's about being a reliable tower.

Well, in current state of the game it is possible to complete C7 trials using only Blaze Balloons and some SGT's, without even dps'ing anything (just tested this myself). And yet it worse than Flame Aura in every single way.

I don't think BB needs a buff, as much as FA needs a nerf. Still like that DoT idea though.


P.S. Can you do Angry Nimbus vs Lightning Strikes Aura comparison? Kinda interested in that one.

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@enigma007 quote:

Well, in current state of the game it is possible to complete C7 trials using only Blaze Balloons and some SGT's, without even dps'ing anything (just tested this myself). And yet it worse than Flame Aura in every single way.

I don't think BB needs a buff, as much as FA needs a nerf. Still like that DoT idea though.


P.S. Can you do Angry Nimbus vs Lightning Strikes Aura comparison? Kinda interested in that one.

You are over geared for C7. Being able to beat C7 with C7 gear is not a good measuring stick.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:
@enigma007 quote:

Well, in current state of the game it is possible to complete C7 trials using only Blaze Balloons and some SGT's, without even dps'ing anything (just tested this myself). And yet it worse than Flame Aura in every single way.

I don't think BB needs a buff, as much as FA needs a nerf. Still like that DoT idea though.


P.S. Can you do Angry Nimbus vs Lightning Strikes Aura comparison? Kinda interested in that one.

You are over geared for C7. Being able to beat C7 with C7 gear is not a good measuring stick.

I never implied it is. Unbalanced endgame is a topic of a different matter. Just pointing out that BB is bad compared to FA only due to FA's overpowered nature, while there's nothing wrong with BB in general.

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If you start nerfing towers based on overgeared endgame players, you will make it impossible for lower geared players to climb the chaos tiers.

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@Ubara-tutu quote:

If you start nerfing towers based on overgeared endgame players, you will make it impossible for lower geared players to climb the chaos tiers.

Yeah, we shouldn't do that. Not sure why are we even changed the subject to talk about it. FA is a overperforming tower, endgame or not. We shouldn't compare BB to it.

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@Ubara-tutu quote:

We are talking about it because of this:

@enigma007 quote:I don't think BB needs a buff, as much as FA needs a nerf. Still like that DoT idea though.

:)

Well, maybe we should talk about it without mentioning endgame then. Because

enigma007 quote:

FA is a overperforming tower, endgame or not.

Removing ability to hit air and slightly reducing upgrade scaling will probably be the best way to fix it. It's still remain as one of the best ground based towers, but won't be jack-of-all-trades anymore. 

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Blazing Phoenix once had a great effect when it travelled along the ground.

I suggested we have an arrow on BB that gives the direction of travel of Blazing Phoenix.

Firing it into the air is a complete waste, along the ground would seriously make this trap fully worth the DU.

A Damage over Time would also be great and this should also synergise effectively with Oiling, not sure if it does yet.

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Why not making it a water/poison trap? We only have 1 (i think) water trap and it doesn't even have a big range. If you change the element you can make it more unique and people would use it more because of its combo potential. We have A LOT of fire AOE towers now. What I am trying to say is if you keep the same stats and the same cost but change the element i think more people would use it, not for damage but for fun. I don't think you need to change the stats to buff something if you give it more uses and make it fun to play around with.

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