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raiden7447

Nerfing Is Not The Answer

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@Argonias quote:


@Xengre quote:

-Snip-

FA is as strong if not stronger than the WM when upgraded.  If you compare a 3 node WM (120 DU cost) to 3-4 FA (90 or 120 DU cost) placing the FA in the same spots as the WM, the FA will outperform the WM. 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1088813312

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1088813276

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1088813210

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1088813234

Not sure if the links to those work or not.  They show that 3 FA by wave 4 when placed similarly to WM, will do more damage.  The 3 FA did 199.9 Million damage.  The 3 node WM did 188 Million.

So, valid point, FA is as strong if not stronger than the WM, given upgrades during the run. 

In the current meta/chaos tier, WM is chosen because it is convenient, another valid point.

Probably made other valid points, but don't feel like going back a page or two to review everything I wrote.  And Xengre dude, all I was saying initially is the WM is NOT OP when compared to other towers, and it is not.  If you take most other defenses and use the same DU cost, upgrade them to tier 3, they outperform the WM.  WM is only used as much as it is now, because it is convenient and efficient.  I do not want them to nerf it, because it is balanced the way they designed it.  Other people have made the point that if they adjust the WM to be upgradeable instead of being at tier 2.5 from the start, should be cheaper at start in this case, it would and could fall right in line with every other defense.  I am hoping Trendy reads most of this and does not nerf the defense, an adjustment to make it upgradeable would be fine.  I just do not want to come back online and see the WM completely put out of commission.  I do not normally use it, but it is still a decent defense, I tend to use defenses I can actively buff up by upgrading because part of the fun for me is running around upgrading stuff.

The links do work and thanks for the test. It wasn't so hard. Glad someone managed it. I would like to point out a potential issue with the results though. The WM as far as I am aware are reknowned for their crits and the no gear WM from test heroes function even has crits ~4x their attack value. You seem to have a medallion, I am guessing, or abnormally low crits and thus, potentially, not utilizing WM anywhere near its real potential. This is purely speculation from me because I do not own the hero to have proper experience, myself. If you are up for it repeat your tests using a comparably powerful mark and proper shards for it and see how the results change (I expect WM performance to certainly improve but that is no guarantee).

In addition, test in a much more populated lane. The kill count for that lane is seems kind of low and test until wave 5 completion. Reason is that the low mob count actually heavily favors FA biasing the results drastically towards FA if there isn't a target cap on WM since it allows FA to not suffer due to limited target cap with low mob density.

Don't expect you to put further effort into testing, though would be great if you do. It is already far more effort then the brief attempt would take from anyone else who hasn't bothered here.

@Kambien quote:

I realize there is a lot of good back and forth about advantages and disadvantages of the WM; it's odd that it would be allowed to do so much damage when the focus of this tower should be on the exact title of itself, the WEAPON manufacturer.  It seems simple, in my simple little brain, to reduce the damage of WM; enable upgrading of this defense, however, all upgrades enhance the damage of the weapon it creates and not the damage it deals.  The aura should be secondary to what it's primary damage source seems like it should be?  The weapon.

Most definitely agreed. Makes me wonder if that is a core focus of the "change" that will occur to it soon.

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@Xengre quote:

If you are up for it repeat your tests using a comparably powerful mark and proper shards for it and see how the results change (I expect WM performance to certainly improve but that is no guarantee).

Did I miss something? Seen a lot of people recently advocating marks over medallions lately, and most curiously, for specific towers, and it's starting to make me think I missed a change to defense crit somewhere along the line?

If I haven't then all towers (with the exception of technically PDT, and possibly skyguard) should scale with defense crit exactly 5x as much as defense power. Which without power transfer makes Marks win... But with power transfer should favor Medallions (by around 10% or so if my maths right... Can't find the old threads to verify with these forums...).

So did I miss something or...?

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Yes Nerfing is the answer. Making all towers stupid strong would make the game so boring and easy. All though it will still be the case either way but why even more easy?
I gonna assume they want towers to be good as flame aura since They not nerfing that. If thats the case then that is all ready OP enough.

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WM is for children to use (spoiled,short attention span). Leave the rest of the defenses to the adults.squire_small.png

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It's too bad some healthy discussion here is derailed by emotion-driven drivel...

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@MaJean quote:

WM is for children to use (spoiled,short attention span). Leave the rest of the defenses to the adults.squire_small.png

Using the best tool in your toolbox makes you a child?

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@Travysmo quote:


@MaJean quote:

WM is for children to use (spoiled,short attention span). Leave the rest of the defenses to the adults.squire_small.png

Using the best tool in your toolbox makes you a child?

I should have known on this forum one cannot just make a joke without someone taking offense. I´m just saying you don´t exactly have to be Einstein to use it.

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@Xengre quote:

-Snip-

The links do work and thanks for the test. It wasn't so hard. Glad someone managed it. I would like to point out a potential issue with the results though. The WM as far as I am aware are reknowned for their crits and the no gear WM from test heroes function even has crits ~4x their attack value. You seem to have a medallion, I am guessing, or abnormally low crits and thus, potentially, not utilizing WM anywhere near its real potential. This is purely speculation from me because I do not own the hero to have proper experience, myself. If you are up for it repeat your tests using a comparably powerful mark and proper shards for it and see how the results change (I expect WM performance to certainly improve but that is no guarantee).

In addition, test in a much more populated lane. The kill count for that lane is seems kind of low and test until wave 5 completion. Reason is that the low mob count actually heavily favors FA biasing the results drastically towards FA if there isn't a target cap on WM since it allows FA to not suffer due to limited target cap with low mob density.

Don't expect you to put further effort into testing, though would be great if you do. It is already far more effort then the brief attempt would take from anyone else who hasn't bothered here.

-Snip-

So I did not use a more populated lane yet, the other side I could test as well, but I tend to spam like 10 or so FA over there with only 1 WM, so the results of that would be biased.  I can say on that side, I did have one FA (I am assuming I put it in a great spot) that outperformed everything on the map pulling over 600 million damage.  Either way, I did re-do the test with a Mark, I took a screenshot of the mark and medallion, they will be included in the screenshots. 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178833
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178813
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178397
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178415
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178430
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178459
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178473
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178497
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178516
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178529
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178547
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178563
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178584
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178606
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178630
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178644
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178563
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178695
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178715
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178730
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178746
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178768

Sorry for all the links, but that is the end of every wave, one SS of the WM and one of each of the 3 FA, as well as the SS that shows the medallion used and mark used.  As a note, the bosses on that lane were 2 Malthius for the first two bosses, then Slekeleon on wave 4 (I think), and a plaguing hulk on the final wave.  Neither me nor the gunwitch helped with any of the bosses and let the defenses kill everything, all I did was repair the wall if it needed it.  In the end, totaling the damage between the 3 FA was 545.4 million, while the WM pulled a total of 377 million.

I plan on testing a few more things out between the two defenses, for one I plan next time on that map to swap the medallion and mark and see if the WM will out perform or if the FA will stay ahead.  Another thing would be to find an area that has more mob density and test that as well, with similarly placed defenses.

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@Kambien quote:

The thread here is basically dead.  WM FIX INCOMING!

You spelled nerf wrong friend.

Not that it really mattered lol. They were surprisingly fair with the nerf for weapon man.

My poor PDT's were not so lucky T^T lost like 40% of it's effective DPS... Though I can't say it was entirely unwarrented...

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@xArcAngel quote:
@Kambien quote:

The thread here is basically dead.  WM FIX INCOMING!

You spelled nerf wrong friend.

Not that it really mattered lol. They were surprisingly fair with the nerf for weapon man.

My poor PDT's were not so lucky T^T lost like 40% of it's effective DPS... Though I can't say it was entirely unwarrented...

LOL - Well I suppose so. ;-)

I was surprised by how little it was nerfed as well.  PDT psn damage is a huge loss for them, but I have yet to play the new patch to really see or measure the change yet.

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@Kambien quote:

LOL - Well I suppose so. ;-)

I was surprised by how little it was nerfed as well.  PDT psn damage is a huge loss for them, but I have yet to play the new patch to really see or measure the change yet.

Yeah... Until I move back to my apartment I'm stuck with uber slow internet... so still waiting on patch too T^T

But my PDT pre-patch was about 1mil DPS single target T1... with about 75% of that being poison damage. So given the changes, I'd say they'll prob do about 600-700k single target DPS? And like 300-400k "AOE" now? Still should be one of the best I think.

Mostly just sad because they took so much of the power away from the poison trait that makes it so unique...

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I just want to say that we had been worried about WM this whole time when PDT was on a bad path. I was totally prepared to RIP WM today but it seems I have to RIP PDT instead.

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@Argonias quote:
@Xengre quote:

-Snip-

The links do work and thanks for the test. It wasn't so hard. Glad someone managed it. I would like to point out a potential issue with the results though. The WM as far as I am aware are reknowned for their crits and the no gear WM from test heroes function even has crits ~4x their attack value. You seem to have a medallion, I am guessing, or abnormally low crits and thus, potentially, not utilizing WM anywhere near its real potential. This is purely speculation from me because I do not own the hero to have proper experience, myself. If you are up for it repeat your tests using a comparably powerful mark and proper shards for it and see how the results change (I expect WM performance to certainly improve but that is no guarantee).

In addition, test in a much more populated lane. The kill count for that lane is seems kind of low and test until wave 5 completion. Reason is that the low mob count actually heavily favors FA biasing the results drastically towards FA if there isn't a target cap on WM since it allows FA to not suffer due to limited target cap with low mob density.

Don't expect you to put further effort into testing, though would be great if you do. It is already far more effort then the brief attempt would take from anyone else who hasn't bothered here.

-Snip-

So I did not use a more populated lane yet, the other side I could test as well, but I tend to spam like 10 or so FA over there with only 1 WM, so the results of that would be biased.  I can say on that side, I did have one FA (I am assuming I put it in a great spot) that outperformed everything on the map pulling over 600 million damage.  Either way, I did re-do the test with a Mark, I took a screenshot of the mark and medallion, they will be included in the screenshots. 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178833
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178813
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178397
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178415
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178430
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178459
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178473
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178497
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178516
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178529
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178547
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178563
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178584
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178606
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178630
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178644
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178563
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178695
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178715
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178730
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178746
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091178768

Sorry for all the links, but that is the end of every wave, one SS of the WM and one of each of the 3 FA, as well as the SS that shows the medallion used and mark used.  As a note, the bosses on that lane were 2 Malthius for the first two bosses, then Slekeleon on wave 4 (I think), and a plaguing hulk on the final wave.  Neither me nor the gunwitch helped with any of the bosses and let the defenses kill everything, all I did was repair the wall if it needed it.  In the end, totaling the damage between the 3 FA was 545.4 million, while the WM pulled a total of 377 million.

I plan on testing a few more things out between the two defenses, for one I plan next time on that map to swap the medallion and mark and see if the WM will out perform or if the FA will stay ahead.  Another thing would be to find an area that has more mob density and test that as well, with similarly placed defenses.

Are you using both WM and flame aura in the exact same lane?  Shouldn't you be doing the same map twice, once using WM and once using FA, and then comparing the dmg output (even time per round)?


If you are upgrading FA then you also need to factor in dmg from blockades and other sources of dmg (i.e. proton nodes).  The strength of WM is in the fact that it doesn't require any upgrades.  If you are not taking this into account you are limiting your ability to make accurate comparisons and creating bias in your results. 


If you are spending 100% of your resources upgrading FA, the TOTAL dmg of your entire build needs to be compared.  You could upgrade all FA for one run (assuming this uses all of your resources), and compare the total dmg (or time per wave) to that of another run on the same map using WM where your resources have been spent upgrading things like proton nodes and blockades.  If you have 4 lanes, upgrading all 4 FA in each lane isn't going to be possible, so the total dmg output should, theoretically be lower to that of maxed out proton nodes+blockade+WM (i.e. maxing 4 proton nodes and 4 blockades will be possible as compared to maxing 12-16 FA). 


If you are going to compare WM and FA without factoring in total dmg or time, you need to compare them straight across at base stats (this is simpler to do and we already know WM will outperform FA in this scenario).


A possible limitation is how many resources you spend repairing walls.  If you have max frozen proton nodes (WM run), this will eliminate a lot of dmg from bosses as compared to a tier 1 frozen proton node (FA run).  It may also be plausible to compare resources evenly spent across all defenses in the FA run.  There are a large number of simulations that need to be run in order to accurately answer this question. 


In short, comparing the dmg for a fully ranked up FA to a WM isn't a relevant comparison, as of course the FA will do more dmg. It is the TOTAL dmg (or time!) that needs to be compared. 

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@Travysmo quote:-Snip-

Are you using both WM and flame aura in the exact same lane?  Shouldn't you be doing the same map twice, once using WM and once using FA, and then comparing the dmg output (even time per round)?


If you are upgrading FA then you also need to factor in dmg from blockades and other sources of dmg (i.e. proton nodes).  The strength of WM is in the fact that it doesn't require any upgrades.  If you are not taking this into account you are limiting your ability to make accurate comparisons and creating bias in your results. 


If you are spending 100% of your resources upgrading FA, the TOTAL dmg of your entire build needs to be compared.  You could upgrade all FA for one run (assuming this uses all of your resources), and compare the total dmg (or time per wave) to that of another run on the same map using WM where your resources have been spent upgrading things like proton nodes and blockades.  If you have 4 lanes, upgrading all 4 FA in each lane isn't going to be possible, so the total dmg output should, theoretically be lower to that of maxed out proton nodes+blockade+WM (i.e. maxing 4 proton nodes and 4 blockades will be possible as compared to maxing 12-16 FA). 


If you are going to compare WM and FA without factoring in total dmg or time, you need to compare them straight across at base stats (this is simpler to do and we already know WM will outperform FA in this scenario).


A possible limitation is how many resources you spend repairing walls.  If you have max frozen proton nodes (WM run), this will eliminate a lot of dmg from bosses as compared to a tier 1 frozen proton node (FA run).  It may also be plausible to compare resources evenly spent across all defenses in the FA run.  There are a large number of simulations that need to be run in order to accurately answer this question. 


In short, comparing the dmg for a fully ranked up FA to a WM isn't a relevant comparison, as of course the FA will do more dmg. It is the TOTAL dmg (or time!) that needs to be compared. 

Not that it matters at this point, beings the 'adjustments' are already in.  I was using the WM and FA in the same lane to see which would outperform the other, hitting the same units that pathed through.  If you look at the links I provided I placed the WM and FA in similar positions and took screenshots for every wave that passed to show what damage was done and when the FA out performed the WM.  I spent green mana my green mana upgrading that lane and the two mid lanes for the Skele's on that map.  The gunwitch running with me only spent mana upgrading the other side.  So not all the mana was focused on the far left lane I was screenshoting.  That lane only had a 3 node WM and the 3 FA, so no other damage sources were there, could have taken screenshots of the wall, but I didn't.  The screenshots I took of a previous attempt showing the damage at the end of wave 3/4, forget which, can be compared if you want.  As for repairing the wall, I think I only had to do that 2 or 3 times, though I also upgraded the wall to make sure it didn't drop.  Again, using green mana I could have spent on the FA.  I basically was running the map like I normally would, except I wasn't helping dps that lane, and documenting the damage by the FA and WM on that lane. 

If you look at why I initially was doing the test, people were saying the WM did 10-14x the damage of FA, you would realize why I was comparing the two.  I was trying to do a test to show that the FA, given upgrades could and would outperform the WM in the long run, using similar DU costs.  For the most part, I proved my point.  3 or if you want to really show it 4 FA, would outperform the WM before the nerf, given that you upgrade the FA.  That being said, there are a lot of variables that could be thrown in which might or might not change the results.  For instance, if I put all 3 nodes the WM stacked near the entrance to the lane, I would assume the WM would beat the FA, because it is achieving 3x the hits in that area and making it to where the 2 FA farther up the lane would not get as much damage.  At that point it would be 1 fully upgraded FA, which for me achieves about 470k dps, against the 3 node WM, which for me achieves around 900k dps.  So with all that damage going out and killing all the smaller mobs before the other FA get to tick on them at all, the WM would out perform. 

In short, it all doesn't matter because the adjustments have already happened, at this point.  So, no sense even discussing it at this point. 

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