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raiden7447

Nerfing Is Not The Answer

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@Argonias quote:


@Xengre quote:-Snip_

So, just to say, you realize you get DPS by measuring the damage done per second?  Damage done over XX amount of time can be turned into DPS numbers.  So your suggestion to look at the damage done by the WM compared to the FA and not the DPS is kind of silly.  The literal reason WM currently outperforms the FA is because we are limited to 5 waves.  To get through a level you can not upgrade a bunch (3 or 4) of FA to tier 2 or 3 on each lane.  You can however drop WM, because you do not need to upgrade it.  If there were more waves of enemies say 10 or 15, it would be preferable at that point to use 4 FA (costs the same DU) along the lanes over the 3 node WM, because the FA would outperform as soon as you can get the upgrades across them.

1.  WM doesn't take any setup time.

2. As xArcAngel stated all auras got the same 8 enemy limitation, so not a valid point either.


@xArcAngel quote:

Both of your tests frankly leave plenty of room for error, but getting a completely accurate one will be almost impossible with the tools we have... So not like I expect anyone to have a valid physical test.

-Snip-
 His calculations factoring out "setup time" does create a bias however, and should not have been done.

-Snip-

So all in all... Weapon man is strong. Weapon man probably deserves some nerfs. Weapon man is NOT 10x stronger than a T5 flame aura however... and does NOT need to be absolutely massacred as you're suggesting. There are a lot of arguments against my comparisons to flame auras that I will give some leniency, but I'm afraid despite your respectable efforts in creating it, I find yours extremely erroneous.

Honestly, my test is not foolproof and probably can't be considered a 'valid' test, but as you say "getting a completely accurate one will be almost impossible with the tools we have".  I still think though that the test remains valid for the point I was making.  The Flame Aura performs as well or better, using the same DU cost, as the WM, if the green mana was readily available to upgrade the FA.  DU is the limiting factor on most maps for how many defenses we can put down.  Green mana is only limited by how many waves we are to go through.  So with Onslaught coming out 'soon', we should see an increase in the usage of FA over WM.  Granted with the 'adjustments' Trendy is making, we will probably see the FA spam start even sooner.

As for my previous tests, I only included the setup time required because I have no way to drop 4 FA at whatever upgrade level in 0 seconds like the WM, which comes out at 2.5.  That is also why I let the tests run a small amount longer on the FA runs.  To be honest, the test is biased towards the WM, it comes out already going at full power, nothing extra needed, FA requires more time for the setup and so is not going at full or whatever level of power for the time it takes to get them setup.  Also, the longer the defenses run, the more accurate the DPS # should be.  So, if wanted I could let the WM run for 5-10 minutes and then the FA run for the same, the DPS # listed then should be pretty accurate as to how much DPS those towers will do.  As I stated initially, all I did was just throw out a quick test.

Uh... Wrong. DPS is damage per second for SINGLE target. Damage over time is total damage ever dealt and if calculated within a specific time frame total DPS something you are not getting in tavern/town (not enough targets to hit to compare much less compared to a massive wave) or from tooltip DPS stat. Actually, longer waves would benefit WM more as the damage of FA wouldn't even scale significantly for per target DPS but units will become tankier meaning AoE DPS would be most valuable and this seems to possibly be where WM is performing so strongly (due to possibly a lack of target cap, in addition to strong single target DPS).

Unless there is another explanation for why WM is doing 10~14x the DPS of comparable stat FA even in wave 1 overlapping each other (and a T5 FA doesn't gain 10-14x the DPS). He didn't provide any tests/comparison to back up his statement it is not performing that much stronger but I have. My method is certainly not perfect as we do, indeed, lack the tools but if the gap is that significant it will provide a very reliable answer. If the damage dealt over the course of a map run is a particularly massive gap from spawn aura vs barricade aura then it can be reliably said that it hits more than 8 targets at once. If someone can somehow make WM aura large enough to hit more than 8 targets in tavern that would be another test (don't own it so can't test either, only test what I see from other players). If the target cap is, in fact, 8 as unlikely as that is... then whatever is causing the massive gap in damage would be a bug tho what kind remains to be seen.

Problem Argonias, is again, you are testing DPS which is incorrect for the situation if they do not both share 8 target cap which, as far as I know after substantial Googling online (just searched again and no such reference to WM was to be found), is one of very few defenses to share such a cap and others can be readily found as well (Ballista, Cannon). It is also possible the DPS being shown is incorrect for some reason both from tooltip and dummies.


- xArcAngel

The entire reason they may not function so identically as it appears that I have been pointing out is the amount of targets both can hit... one may hit far more than 8 (you claimed against with literally zero evidence and nothing shows online). Yes, I am aware of those technicalities this is why I suggested testing on such a difficulty that stuff can actually reasonably survive getting to the barricade (feel free to place the FA ever so slightly ahead to further give it advantage for sake of testing). There is clearly something up when WM is doing such a massive difference in damage dealt. My test method is actually quite reliable if despite this setup WM does a very massive difference in damage (again, we aren't talking about some 30% increase... but from what I have seen a magnitude difference in performance). This allows us to reliably rule out variables beyond target count or some extremely obscure unknown bug involved. It wouldn't be so usable if the damage dealt was so close. You would want range to be roughly identical (my mention of range prior was based on it being larger and whether or not that is an advantage or disadvantage to the tower, itself, not a discussion of raw DPS limited by a target cap in a comparison to WM and FA... you do not want to count it here). Nope. Comparing DPS is totally inaccurate if the target difference is even 1-2 and even more so if it is much larger. DPS is single target damage purely in this game. This is probably one of the core reasons damaged dealt is a figure on the tooltip at all, and for the rare DoT tower.


No, you seem to have not properly read my post... The test would need to be repeated several times on several map clears to help average out the variance in lanes. It would be comparing the performance of, primarily, the spawn defense but would also make a comparison of how well the wall defense held up. This would give us a rather rough comparison but if the performance gap is excessively large between FA and WM then we got an answer. If it is much closer as people are repeatedly suggesting with, literally, zero evidence here then the test will be inconclusive even if it appears to favor WM. Those passives and total lane HP will generally not come into play for spawn defenses as they will remain there far to briefly at standard aura size, especially when repeated over several runs 3-5 will probably be more than sufficient if the gap is particularly massive as I have seen... if not well that has been repeated as well.


You provided literally zero evidence towards any of your claims... target limit, it not performing 10x-14x better in raw damage, etc. Honestly, not sure what to say about such a post. Didn't really benefit us. What we need is proper testing.

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@Xengre quote:

-snip-

Apologies, but I feel no obligation to search through the forums to find "proof" that the target cap exists when your only "proof" is the absence of proof. I simply attempted to list possible explanations why your test is showing such a drastically exaggerated result compared to most everyone else (including people that agree with the nerf), and give you a chance to provide any reasoning or logic as to why your decision to focus on Damage over DPS can be argued to be more valid when the reasoning I showed provides reasoning for it to be less valid.

The closest thing to "proof" I'm afraid I can provide for you that flame auras are not performing at a tenth the power of a weapon man, is that the only thing I use flame auras for is running 4 mans in the rare chances I do them, as that usually removes the chip damage my walls start to take from the MP scaling after wave 2... Considering that's no more substantiated than yours, would seem stupid to use that as counter-evidence though... wouldn't it?

Additionally... just to put into perspective your focus on this target cap... Say that you agree on the DPS comparison (since you don't seem to be arguing against that, and are simply saying it's due to target cap), a weapon man has roughly double the DPS of a T1 flame aura (emphasis on roughly). That means, that for it to do 10x the damage in the same time it'd have to hit 5x as many targets at once (can prove that algebraically if you're that desperate for proof). The cap is 8. That is 40 enemies. Please show me "proof" of any map in which there are 40 enemies at once on average (because it can't be a single tick to create this skew) and I will believe your claim that the target cap is the culprit. Otherwise, I will be forced to default to my original explanation of why the target cap is largely irrelevant. And without that argument, I still lack one for why damage is the more valid quantitative value.

Lastly... while I agree we need proper testing... That doesn't mean I'm not going to be cynical and actually point out what I consider a non-proper test. You dislike it, or disagree with it, so be it. Ignore it if you wish. I simply put out the reasoning for those that do not see what I do, or to be otherwise proven wrong by those who see something that I do not.

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To be honest, your 10x-14x better WM compared to FA is not something that most people have experienced, at least from the sample of people I've read online.  You're argument would have a lot more weight if you provided pictures, or did some of the more controlled experiments that were suggested (I think by you, but there is so much text I don't want to wade through all of it again).  If you don't have the time, that's fine of course, just trying to suggest things that might help your case.  

Speaking from my own personal experience, it is universally whichever aura is closest to spawn (whether flame or WM) that gets the most damage dealt during a run, for the obvious reason that they hit stuff first.  I've not noticed a real difference in which I place at spawn, but I often put my WM nodes near walls because you can stack them more easily and thus outperform FAs for taking care of lady orcs and minibosses.

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@Xengre quote:

-Snip-

Uh... Wrong. DPS is damage per second for SINGLE target. Damage over time is total damage ever dealt and if calculated within a specific time frame total DPS something you are not getting in tavern/town (not enough targets to hit to compare much less compared to a massive wave) or from tooltip DPS stat. Actually, longer waves would benefit WM more as the damage of FA wouldn't even scale significantly for per target DPS but units will become tankier meaning AoE DPS would be most valuable and this seems to possibly be where WM is performing so strongly (due to possibly a lack of target cap, in addition to strong single target DPS).

Unless there is another explanation for why WM is doing 10~14x the DPS of comparable stat FA even in wave 1 overlapping each other (and a T5 FA doesn't gain 10-14x the DPS). He didn't provide any tests/comparison to back up his statement it is not performing that much stronger but I have. My method is certainly not perfect as we do, indeed, lack the tools but if the gap is that significant it will provide a very reliable answer. If the damage dealt over the course of a map run is a particularly massive gap from spawn aura vs barricade aura then it can be reliably said that it hits more than 8 targets at once. If someone can somehow make WM aura large enough to hit more than 8 targets in tavern that would be another test (don't own it so can't test either, only test what I see from other players). If the target cap is, in fact, 8 as unlikely as that is... then whatever is causing the massive gap in damage would be a bug tho what kind remains to be seen.

Problem Argonias, is again, you are testing DPS which is incorrect for the situation if they do not both share 8 target cap which, as far as I know after substantial Googling online (just searched again and no such reference to WM was to be found), is one of very few defenses to share such a cap and others can be readily found as well (Ballista, Cannon). It is also possible the DPS being shown is incorrect for some reason both from tooltip and dummies.

-Snip-

OK.  So what I am trying to say is that the WM is not OP if you compare it to other towers.  It is only showing as OP during the matches currently because of the 5 wave system.  It drops for 120 DU with 3 nodes that are tier 2.5 with no extra mana cost to upgrade.  That means it starts at wave 1 2.5x better than ANY other tower.  Which no other towers are upgraded in the first wave, most of the time the second wave does not have many towers upgraded 2x or more.  That means the WM will outperform ANY and ALL other towers with the current 5 wave system.  When there are more than 5 waves the WM will be less useful, because other towers can be upgraded past the 2.5 tier mark.  What my test showed is that when you place FA, using the same 120 DU, and get to upgrade them, they are better.  They get more range and more damage, which in turn means they will do more DPS for longer as the creatures move through the aura.

That is the reason that, IMO, the WM does not need a nerf.  It is only showing as OP because of the 5 wave system.  As a side note, I have had a single fully upgraded FA out perform a 3 node WM, because of positioning and the fact I upgraded the FA on wave 2, the WM did have a node directly next to the FA, so it was hitting the same area. 

To note as well, the 3 node WM, is equal in DU cost to 4 FA.  SO, a WM's damage done at the end of wave 1 being 2.5x better than any other tower, including the FA, and beings its DU cost is 4x a single FA, means that the WM on wave 1 is 10x better than a single FA.  So yea, you are correct on wave 1, the WM will be 10x better in damage done.  Put 4 FA down instead of the WM, and the likely case is on wave 1, it will still be 2.5x better.  Upgrade all 4 of the FA 1x each and they pull almost equal in damage.  Put a 2nd upgrade in all 4 FA, and the FAs will outperform the WM.  That does mean that in the 5 wave system, where you do not get a chance to max upgrade everything or even upgrade most dps towers up past tier 2 or 3, if your spreading your upgrades across the lanes, the WM will be the best choice for a dps tower.  It is still because of the 5 wave system.  Once you get maps that can go past that, say 10 or 15 waves and get everything upgraded the WM will fall off when compared to the FA. 

What happens in a lane is different than in a tavern, I fully admit that, but it does not change what DPS the tower is doing.  The tooltip that trendy gives is a literal representation of the average DPS a tower can pull.  It gets that by taking the damage, the attack rate, the critical chance, the critical damage, and puts it all together to give you the average dps of the tower.  It will not be completely accurate 100% of the time during a match because the mobs may not be in the aura long enough, or the 30% chance to crit just didn't happen, or something else, but the towers average DPS is still the same.  You can expect a tower that does 400k dps to do about 400k damage to its target(s) per second for the time the target remains in its range. 

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@xArcAngel quote:
@Xengre quote:

-snip-

Apologies, but I feel no obligation to search through the forums to find "proof" that the target cap exists when your only "proof" is the absence of proof. I simply attempted to list possible explanations why your test is showing such a drastically exaggerated result compared to most everyone else (including people that agree with the nerf), and give you a chance to provide any reasoning or logic as to why your decision to focus on Damage over DPS can be argued to be more valid when the reasoning I showed provides reasoning for it to be less valid.

The closest thing to "proof" I'm afraid I can provide for you that flame auras are not performing at a tenth the power of a weapon man, is that the only thing I use flame auras for is running 4 mans in the rare chances I do them, as that usually removes the chip damage my walls start to take from the MP scaling after wave 2... Considering that's no more substantiated than yours, would seem stupid to use that as counter-evidence though... wouldn't it?

Additionally... just to put into perspective your focus on this target cap... Say that you agree on the DPS comparison (since you don't seem to be arguing against that, and are simply saying it's due to target cap), a weapon man has roughly double the DPS of a T1 flame aura (emphasis on roughly). That means, that for it to do 10x the damage in the same time it'd have to hit 5x as many targets at once (can prove that algebraically if you're that desperate for proof). The cap is 8. That is 40 enemies. Please show me "proof" of any map in which there are 40 enemies at once on average (because it can't be a single tick to create this skew) and I will believe your claim that the target cap is the culprit. Otherwise, I will be forced to default to my original explanation of why the target cap is largely irrelevant. And without that argument, I still lack one for why damage is the more valid quantitative value.

Lastly... while I agree we need proper testing... That doesn't mean I'm not going to be cynical and actually point out what I consider a non-proper test. You dislike it, or disagree with it, so be it. Ignore it if you wish. I simply put out the reasoning for those that do not see what I do, or to be otherwise proven wrong by those who see something that I do not.

Then you are bowing out of the discussion until you wish to provide a worthwhile statement I assume? I searched a fair amount because I was curious about WM and other towers target caps and could find nothing. In addition, this is the only potential reason provided thus far for the massive gulf in damage dealt and general performance of the two defenses. Literally not one person has provided any explanation as to why and clearly WM wouldn't be used so much if they were that close as even T2 should provide comparable performance. To many people are looking at DPS as evidence of any equality between the two when this applies exclusively to single target damage... while the damage dealt between the two seems to be vastly different. No one else has had different results from mine. Not a single person in this entire thread, literally. I am the exclusive person here to look at damage dealt while every other entity has vouched for the DPS... the incorrect figure for the discussion. If defense 1 does 100k DPS while defense 2 does 98k DPS they are nearly identical right? This is the argument people are using here. However, during a wave defense 1 has a damage dealt figure of 34m while defense 2 has a damage dealt figure of 3.4m. Clearly they aren't equal, a magnitude difference in performance.

Your example with 4 man... just do the same thing with WM that you do with FA. Even at T5 the damage advantage is not significant. You would be far better invested in putting that mana into upgrades on something else since you don't have to upgrade WM in normal runs unless you have the stats to basically afk with all auras for a given map/difficulty at which point it is kinda moot.

It is possible that FA is wasting overkill damage/crits on small mobs beyond their HP threshold while  far less damage from WM is wasted because it is hitting everything or more at the same time where FA only gets to hit 8 targets at a time. This becomes far more apparent when numerous mobs are making it through a given aura. Your assumption that it would take 5x the number of mobs is wrong because it assumes every mob has identical health which is such a disastrous assumption. Thus with a smaller number still reasonably larger than 8 but potentially way lower than 40... falls totally into realistic territory.

My test is not improper. If the damage dealt gap is a magnitude different or even close to so then it can be found reliable. The damage dealt would have to be fairly close after testing in order for it to not be found reliable even considering potential variables. You know what margin of error and real world results are correct?


@lekkin007 quote:

To be honest, your 10x-14x better WM compared to FA is not something that most people have experienced, at least from the sample of people I've read online.  You're argument would have a lot more weight if you provided pictures, or did some of the more controlled experiments that were suggested (I think by you, but there is so much text I don't want to wade through all of it again).  If you don't have the time, that's fine of course, just trying to suggest things that might help your case.  

Speaking from my own personal experience, it is universally whichever aura is closest to spawn (whether flame or WM) that gets the most damage dealt during a run, for the obvious reason that they hit stuff first.  I've not noticed a real difference in which I place at spawn, but I often put my WM nodes near walls because you can stack them more easily and thus outperform FAs for taking care of lady orcs and minibosses.

I believe there is no real debate that WM is outperforming FA atm correct? This is kind of a universal belief by both the community and Trendy and can even be seen in c4+ runs as it is almost always what you will encounter, almost exclusively... as cited by several people.

I would test it but I do not own the hero and I do not support Trendy after some very disagreeable behavior from them in the past on several occasions (check my DD2/Steam discussion history if you want to dig for some examples, including several self owns by Trendy accidentally outing themselves). Doesn't mean I can't enjoy this type of game and that is another discussion entirely.

No one has argued against my point or provided any comparison (such as it only does 2x the damage, etc. in their experience). In fact, every poster in this thread has looked at DPS exclusively regarding the two towers... neglecting Damage Dealt entirely so it is obvious why no one is bringing it up. They haven't even noticed/looked.

It isn't difficult for someone to actually test this and provide video of the test or even numbers for comparison. If they were so similar in performance then WM wouldn't be so lopsidedly popular. Getting to T3 is nothing on a defense where it supposedly begins to outperform.

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@Xengre quote:

Then you are bowing out of the discussion until you wish to provide a worthwhile statement I assume?

My statement only feels worthless to you because you're simply ignoring the points in it to re-iterate your own... So yes. Since this conversation is going no where, I'm bowing out. The information is there for those that want to contribute towards or against it.

@Xengre quote:

Your example with 4 man... just do the same thing with WM that you do with FA. Even at T5 the damage advantage is not significant. You would be far better invested in putting that mana into upgrades on something else since you don't have to upgrade WM in normal runs unless you have the stats to basically afk with all auras for a given map/difficulty at which point it is kinda moot.

Simply for clarity, the example was auras vs weapon mans. I normally run weapon man's for the reason many have explained - it's the lazy build. With even decent C7 gear (somewhere around 17k medallions) you can pretty easily AFK C7 with either flame auras or weapon mans. Weapon man's place faster, need no upgrades, and have no concern of HP. Considering I usually only play when I have someone to play with, I use them so I can just chat and occasionally go kill a roller.

In the rare situations I'm in a 4 man C7 (I prefer duo) my weapon man setup takes chip damage (most likely cause I have low ascension compared to most). Not a lot, but enough that my OCD goes crazy looking at it... So I build flame auras instead, and by wave 3 no longer take chip damage. Only downside is air gets a bit sketchy on some maps cause of less upgrades into my anti air.

But yeah... It's not valid "proof" of anything. Simply a relatively comparable example to what you considered a better test,

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@Argonias quote:


It is only showing as OP because of the 5 wave system.  



1. There is  currently no other game mode than "5 wave system" so that It could be hypothetically worse in non-existing game mode IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT and the most optimistic estimates talk about endless modes to be added around christmas. So the game balance will at very least 4 months depend completely on current system and even IF it was added tomorrow,today we have no knowledge,information or experience to talk about something that does not yet exist. With such update It would make sense to see changes to skills like weapon manufacturer anyway.

Do you play counter strike thinking like "if this competitive kill or be killed system was not here the ak47 would be useless gun!"
No you do not,because there is such system already in place and thinking about some scenario that does not exist is not relevant to gun balance in the game.

Currently to be most efficient and comfortable you want to: Set up defense,spam g,win,do not open chest,set up defense,spam g,win...

If 1 defense allows you to do that without additional effort and time[upgrading,repairs] then it is simply superior choice.

Here is checklist for you
>What takes less time?
a] to do nothing 
b]to upgrade 
>What takes less effort to
a]do nothing 
b]or to do something

If you use your brain I guess you can already see that something that you do not have to upgrade is more optimal solution in grind game where after week of playing you farm only "levels,gold and medals"
How do you get all those 3 things? By winning the match as quick as possible preferably with the least effort possible.

Imagine trap that will have 10x more combined dps for same combined DU cost as weapon manufacturer.
but you would need to use 100 of them,they would block each other,you would have to upgrade them every round  and kill would happen on very last one
It would clear the map 100%,resulting in 100% win,but the monsters have to walk to very end of your defense ,you have to set up more of them and you have to upgrade them

On other side you would have aura that deals only 10% of this dps,still clear the map,you have to put just one ,never upgrade it and kill happens on beginning of the map right at spawn.
 
So even with potential dps of this trap being 10x more,it would take you much longer to clear the map than with this aura with 10% dps.

This pretty much shows you the "4 flame auras cost the same as manufacturer" point is also irrelevant because target of no player is to reach maximum dps for least DU possible at maximal radius

but to reach damage that will kill monsters as early as possible within maximum DU limit with least set up time possible.

All we care about currently is
>Clear speed
>Set up time
>Additional effort[repairs,upgrades]

So unless you can prove that to set up 1 weapon manufacturer takes more time and effort or has lower clear speed than to summon and upgrade 4+ flame auras your points are irrelevant to current system.

Both WM and Flame Auras are auras mechanically so neither of them is more "fun" in this sense.
Even tho "fun" is important,you never argued for flame auras to be more fun to use and it is very subjective matter anyway[so no point in arguing it]

Where the time and effort spend in the match can be objectively measured and favors the WM.

It really does not matter that X will outperform Y over period of time when your objective is to never reach the period of time needed for that to happen.

Here is logical example
You have pump A and pump B ,your mission is to fill one 100l bucket
Pump A will pump 100l/s after clicking button
Pump B will pump 10l/s after pulling heavy lever 5 times in row,after first second it will warm up and pump 20l/s after another second it will pump 50l after another second it will pump 100000000000l/s

What pump did fill the bucket faster?
Pump A

Pump A is the manufacturer.
Pump B is anything that can outperform manufacturer if you put more time and or effort in it.

Yes if you need to fill 1000000000l bucket pump B will outperform pump A, the thing is you do not.
Just like you do not need to over-kill mobs in this game.

If the monster has 1000hp,one tower does 1000dmg,it will die in one hit.
If you have 10towers doing 999dmg they can indeed do 9990 damage but it will still take two hits to kill it.

Over-killing enemy is not the objective,just killing it is enought



What I experience currently with my maxed c7 gear is: 1 manufacturer+1wall=lane is safe[includes bosses]
5flame auras with max radius+wall=I have to go and manually kill the monsters with chi blast,upgrade the auras and repair the walls.

Yes I believe that in game mode with 100rounds,the flame aura will outperform WM but what is it good for with no such game mode  currently ingame?


And to be honest from my experience one WM does much more real dps than 4 flame auras,I would assume It is because It can stack more damage in smaller radius closer to spawn,so monsters just step inside and die instantly,where in flame aura they walk from one end to other and then some more[orc lady does not even get damaged properly by flame aura,I think she walks faster than is Aura Tick rate.

Lets assume orc lady walk 1m/s and flame aura has .99m diameter with 0.51s tickrate
Than means she will get damaged only once in whole huge radius of flame aura. Where Manufacturer will also damage her just once but per node in smaller area therefore slower monster could soak more dps in whole radius of aura but the most problematic orc lady will be killed quicker and soak more dps in manufacturer radius.

So even in cases where it seems like flame aura should deal more DPS,the real DPS is actually lower because of tickrates


There was thread called "Will be the game balanced only around orc lady forever" with some very valid points about this issue

The point  at whitch you can melt orc lady right after her spawning is the point you "won" because no other monster present any challenge,including bosses compared to her.
So it presents no surprise that WM is great at melting orc lady and is regarded as too strong at once because balance really revolves around her 
She has dps that 2 shot core,deals great damage to walls,run quick,has high hp,can not be soft cced[it is why snake walls are the best walls too] she does not get taunted by walls so sometimes she bugs around it,over it,under it resulting in many loses being 1 orc lady somehow bugging over wall with help of close by texture,knockback,knock up,knock knock...

And there comes the lord and savior: WM that just melts her before she walks her first meter,melts geodes,melts shielded enemy,does not get disabled,kill flying enemy[kobolts],kill roller just fine

It is exactly like devs said "It is all in one solution"


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Woah WM doesn't kill siege rollers just fine lol. 900k on a WM doesn't melt lady orcs nor kobolts 100% either.


Why?


It's dmg is primarily based on chance (30% crit 800-900k 70% chance of like 20k dmg), there are many end game solo c7 matches where I can afk non-siege lanes, but there are also just as many matches where the WM doesnt crit enough and the wall goes down (if not repaired or upgraded) or the kobolt slips through to kill the sub-objective.

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@Omegaknight quote:

Woah WM doesn't kill siege rollers just fine lol. 900k on a WM doesn't melt lady orcs nor kobolts 100% either.


Why?


It's dmg is primarily based on chance (30% crit 800-900k 70% chance of like 20k dmg), there are many end game solo c7 matches where I can afk non-siege lanes, but there are also just as many matches where the WM doesnt crit enough and the wall goes down (if not repaired or upgraded) or the kobolt slips through to kill the sub-objective.

Based on your numbers I'd have to say you're using a mark. I'd recommend trying a medallion my friend. Been too long since I figured the numbers to remember the exact comparison... but provided optimal shards for both marks and medallions, the average DPS of a medallion with power transfer + range + Destruction/Defense rate (it depends on how close you are to the speed cap as to which you use) should beat out everything for overall effectiveness for pretty much all DPS towers besides PDT and Skyguard.

As a bonus... that setup isn't as heavily affected by RNG (which still hates my guts...) and should pretty consistently kill kobolts with as little as a C5 maxed medallion. Lady Orcs are a little harder to guarantee... but some assistance from other towers will usually stop them from getting more than the occasional hit.

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@Expert 人民班 quote:-Snip-


It is exactly like devs said "It is all in one solution"


So is the Flame Aura.  Which is exactly why there was a thread as soon as they said they were nerfing the WM, which basically welcomed everyone to the new meta of spamming FA.  It will be the same thing, just with FA instead of WM.  Hence, what is the point in nerfing something that is working exactly how it is supposed to work?

You are correct, my point of the WM appearing OP as being because of the 5 wave system is moot until they bring out another mode.  However, my point that the FA does outperform WM, when upgraded, is not.  People are saying nerf the WM, I say why?  If we're nerfing that, why don't we just nerf everything into the ground and just nuke the game?  It just does not make sense to nerf something that is working as designed.  It is supposed to be a tier 2.5 tower, so in a game that only goes 5 waves, of course it is going to be OP.  Instead of nerfing it, why not bring out something else? 

You are also correct, the current aim of everyone that plays this game, is to clear the level as quickly and efficiently as possible and move on to the next game.  The WM excels at that, because it requires no upgrades and starts as a 2.5 tower, not only that though, it also has 3 DPS points on it so you can make it very versatile in positioning.  Once the nerf hits, then the WM will just be replaced by FA spam, doing the same thing.  So, I guess we will have to nerf that too.  Then what?  The two major aura's that could let people farm C7 are nerfed, then what?  The next defense then gets blamed for being OP?  It gets nerfed?  Nerfing defenses doesn't solve the issue.  It will just lead to more nerfs, whenever one defense seems to be the most prevalent, or the defense of choice by most. The fix they need is to re-work the Hard counter mobs and introduce new modes. 

As a side note, 0.56 attack rate, means the defense hits every .56 seconds.  So, if a lady orc moved 1m/s and the aura range was 0.99, yes it would only hit once, but so would the WM, unless you stacked all three nodes, then it would hit 3x.  Still yet, most mobs I've seen take more than 5 hits from any defense, so in your analogy the Lady orc would just pass right through both.

I would like to know, how many nodes are you using on the WM to one shot everything that comes out?  One node, I am 99% certain will not do it.  Three nodes may not even do it as you suggest.  Granted if your max C7 gear it might one shot with one node but it really doesn't matter what you use, does it?  I'm not there yet, but then why are you bothering to play if your max C7 gear, if your only goals are Gold, DM, and levels?  Being max C7, you really don't need any of that and are just playing for what?  Fun, I think, would be the answer.  So then, your not playing the game to be efficient and to go from one game to the next as quickly as possible?  At least, when I want to have fun, I don't build the most 'OP' thing in the game and watch it melt stuff....so then what do you normally use?  Does it work?  Or do you just spam WM?  Personally, I think when I get max C7 gear, I would play with most if not all the defenses to see if I could make stuff work.

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really funny how the lazy dudes defend their beloved wm :D

cannot be destroyed, no "need" to upgrade, huge and absolutely safe aoe dmg, dmg hits flyer ! node/shard exploit, counter immune and safe "landing zone" for bombers^^

so its the perfect afk defence.....like NO OTHER defence ;)

and the best argument from those lazy guys is : "....make other defences viable..."....cant stop laughing seriously^^

e.g  proton beams ( oh wait..its from Eve and without wm shes useless, sry my fault)^^

pbeams ( my absolutely favorite ) +flameaura+ skyguard works great and fun to play.

pdts ( ofc strong but far away from the WM overall usefulness )

cannonballs also powerful

reflect beams wonderful against C6 hextrowers

frosties+earthshatter nice combo

etc etc....nearly every fukking tower is viable with the right relics and the right shards !

but ofc that needs also a bit more effort at building and gettin the gear/shards ( more heroes, maybe change heroes several times , repairing/upgrades and so on )

and the most important thing..playing the game awake ;)


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Just a note, I actually tend to use FA, PDT, Cannons, Skyguard, and if I can manage it Ramsters (sometimes not enough DU).  WM is not a defense I normally use, unless it's absolutely necessary, which 99% of the time it isn't.

I just do not like when people say the WM is the Best of the Best, because it isn't.  FA can do more, PDT can do more, Ramsters can do more.  Just because of the heavy reliance on WM, because it is an easy defense to use, isn't a good reason to nerf it.  Like I said earlier, once WM gets nerfed, FA will become the new thing to spam everywhere, more than likely.  What then?  Nerf the FA?  Just because a tower is used a lot doesn't mean it's the best overall.  I never used any auras in C1, C2, and C5.  If they added a new chaos tier with their anti-aura counter, WM would be used less and the focus would shift to PDT or Ramsters or something like those.  They should be nerfed too then?  Nerfing is not the answer, I agree with that.

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@Expert 人民班 quote:


@Argonias quote:


It is only showing as OP because of the 5 wave system.  



1. There is  currently no other game mode than "5 wave system" so that It could be hypothetically worse in non-existing game mode IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT and the most optimistic estimates talk about endless modes to be added around christmas. So the game balance will at very least 4 months depend completely on current system and even IF it was added tomorrow,today we have no knowledge,information or experience to talk about something that does not yet exist. With such update It would make sense to see changes to skills like weapon manufacturer anyway.

Do you play counter strike thinking like "if this competitive kill or be killed system was not here the ak47 would be useless gun!"
No you do not,because there is such system already in place and thinking about some scenario that does not exist is not relevant to gun balance in the game.

Currently to be most efficient and comfortable you want to: Set up defense,spam g,win,do not open chest,set up defense,spam g,win...

If 1 defense allows you to do that without additional effort and time[upgrading,repairs] then it is simply superior choice.

Here is checklist for you
>What takes less time?
a] to do nothing 
b]to upgrade 
>What takes less effort to
a]do nothing 
b]or to do something

If you use your brain I guess you can already see that something that you do not have to upgrade is more optimal solution in grind game where after week of playing you farm only "levels,gold and medals"
How do you get all those 3 things? By winning the match as quick as possible preferably with the least effort possible.

Imagine trap that will have 10x more combined dps for same combined DU cost as weapon manufacturer.
but you would need to use 100 of them,they would block each other,you would have to upgrade them every round  and kill would happen on very last one
It would clear the map 100%,resulting in 100% win,but the monsters have to walk to very end of your defense ,you have to set up more of them and you have to upgrade them

On other side you would have aura that deals only 10% of this dps,still clear the map,you have to put just one ,never upgrade it and kill happens on beginning of the map right at spawn.
 
So even with potential dps of this trap being 10x more,it would take you much longer to clear the map than with this aura with 10% dps.

This pretty much shows you the "4 flame auras cost the same as manufacturer" point is also irrelevant because target of no player is to reach maximum dps for least DU possible at maximal radius

but to reach damage that will kill monsters as early as possible within maximum DU limit with least set up time possible.

All we care about currently is
>Clear speed
>Set up time
>Additional effort[repairs,upgrades]

So unless you can prove that to set up 1 weapon manufacturer takes more time and effort or has lower clear speed than to summon and upgrade 4+ flame auras your points are irrelevant to current system.

Both WM and Flame Auras are auras mechanically so neither of them is more "fun" in this sense.
Even tho "fun" is important,you never argued for flame auras to be more fun to use and it is very subjective matter anyway[so no point in arguing it]

Where the time and effort spend in the match can be objectively measured and favors the WM.

It really does not matter that X will outperform Y over period of time when your objective is to never reach the period of time needed for that to happen.

Here is logical example
You have pump A and pump B ,your mission is to fill one 100l bucket
Pump A will pump 100l/s after clicking button
Pump B will pump 10l/s after pulling heavy lever 5 times in row,after first second it will warm up and pump 20l/s after another second it will pump 50l after another second it will pump 100000000000l/s

What pump did fill the bucket faster?
Pump A

Pump A is the manufacturer.
Pump B is anything that can outperform manufacturer if you put more time and or effort in it.

Yes if you need to fill 1000000000l bucket pump B will outperform pump A, the thing is you do not.
Just like you do not need to over-kill mobs in this game.

If the monster has 1000hp,one tower does 1000dmg,it will die in one hit.
If you have 10towers doing 999dmg they can indeed do 9990 damage but it will still take two hits to kill it.

Over-killing enemy is not the objective,just killing it is enought



What I experience currently with my maxed c7 gear is: 1 manufacturer+1wall=lane is safe[includes bosses]
5flame auras with max radius+wall=I have to go and manually kill the monsters with chi blast,upgrade the auras and repair the walls.

Yes I believe that in game mode with 100rounds,the flame aura will outperform WM but what is it good for with no such game mode  currently ingame?


And to be honest from my experience one WM does much more real dps than 4 flame auras,I would assume It is because It can stack more damage in smaller radius closer to spawn,so monsters just step inside and die instantly,where in flame aura they walk from one end to other and then some more[orc lady does not even get damaged properly by flame aura,I think she walks faster than is Aura Tick rate.

Lets assume orc lady walk 1m/s and flame aura has .99m diameter with 0.51s tickrate
Than means she will get damaged only once in whole huge radius of flame aura. Where Manufacturer will also damage her just once but per node in smaller area therefore slower monster could soak more dps in whole radius of aura but the most problematic orc lady will be killed quicker and soak more dps in manufacturer radius.

So even in cases where it seems like flame aura should deal more DPS,the real DPS is actually lower because of tickrates


There was thread called "Will be the game balanced only around orc lady forever" with some very valid points about this issue

The point  at whitch you can melt orc lady right after her spawning is the point you "won" because no other monster present any challenge,including bosses compared to her.
So it presents no surprise that WM is great at melting orc lady and is regarded as too strong at once because balance really revolves around her 
She has dps that 2 shot core,deals great damage to walls,run quick,has high hp,can not be soft cced[it is why snake walls are the best walls too] she does not get taunted by walls so sometimes she bugs around it,over it,under it resulting in many loses being 1 orc lady somehow bugging over wall with help of close by texture,knockback,knock up,knock knock...

And there comes the lord and savior: WM that just melts her before she walks her first meter,melts geodes,melts shielded enemy,does not get disabled,kill flying enemy[kobolts],kill roller just fine

It is exactly like devs said "It is all in one solution"


We're meant to explore tower combos, not depend on a friggin' meta . And if you want speed to level up quickly that's fine, but defending an unbalanced defense tower doesn't really make sense. The way to use your brain is to defeat matches the NON-CHEESE way. So it means you are able to beat C7  without FA or WM.

Weapons Manufacturer is becoming the next meta and is becoming a beast like the NM4 PDTs, plus it has a bug that makes it overpowering similar like the Toxic Shock bug which is not good. 

Personally, I prefer the WM's MEGA DEATH LASER (and one more, I just can't remember, sorry) to be buffed 'cause that's the star of the WM. (And that's WHY you build WMs)

Basically you're on a futile attempt to hold on what power you had.

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@Argonias quote:

Just a note, I actually tend to use FA, PDT, Cannons, Skyguard, and if I can manage it Ramsters (sometimes not enough DU).  WM is not a defense I normally use, unless it's absolutely necessary, which 99% of the time it isn't.

I just do not like when people say the WM is the Best of the Best, because it isn't.  FA can do more, PDT can do more, Ramsters can do more.  Just because of the heavy reliance on WM, because it is an easy defense to use, isn't a good reason to nerf it.  Like I said earlier, once WM gets nerfed, FA will become the new thing to spam everywhere, more than likely.  What then?  Nerf the FA?  Just because a tower is used a lot doesn't mean it's the best overall.  I never used any auras in C1, C2, and C5.  If they added a new chaos tier with their anti-aura counter, WM would be used less and the focus would shift to PDT or Ramsters or something like those.  They should be nerfed too then?  Nerfing is not the answer, I agree with that.

btw nothing in trendys patch preview speaks about Nerf....."some adjustments" they said ;)

and iam pretty sure they will do it right....first thing is even already announced, the joke shard change/node exploit will get fixed.  more than necessary...isnt it ?

second adjustment would be imho to make wm upgrade able like any other def...with the dmg from now t1 to t5 ofc.

only these two points would greatly defuse those WM situation ;)

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The main advantages of WM vs FA are

1 no need to upgrade/repair wm - jut put down and forget with only 5 waves this allows any other defense to be fully upgraded. If you use FA's you have to get each one to at least tier 3 to compete for 3 nodes vs 3 FA's thats 450 mana.

2 able to stack nodes in a very small area you could easily stack 7 nodes in a smaller area than 2 FA's ever could - making it easier to spawn camp. the Only troubleseome mob is seige rollers most others can easily be spawn killed with no imput from players.

Advantages of FA's over WMs

1 will do more damage once upgraded  (I personally replace one node with a FA and have 3-4 nodes + 1 fa for great effect rather than an extra node).

2 FA hits all targets in area at once (max 8) WM sends a pulse from the node out relying on waiting for he pulse to reach the mob (more noticable when nodes are spread out)

3 You can use a FA to cover a flyer lane with ease WMs dont deal well with this due to the height it reaches seems to be smaller.

4 Fa's cover a larger area meaning if to plan on using a Turtle build you can cover the full lane allot easier than with WMs leaving no or little space where an enemy wont get hit.

5 Cyborks can shut down all nodes at once on a WM but with placement only ONE FA at a time would get disabled.

In the current meta even though WMs have less advantages those advantages make them more preferable for quick matches in most cases. If another mode like onslaught/survival was to exist FA's would have the edge and going from spawn camping to turlte builds would work best overall. Since we dont have anything other than chaos atm most matches will consist of spawn campy wm builds with pdts or sgts for air lanes since its the most time efficient with mana available. When C8 comes out we will most likely have the return of cyborks which may mean more FA's being used everywhere than any other tower so woud we then see a nerf to them? Nerfing the most common used tower doesnt mean its necessarily the most OP, in the present case its just the most time efficient and easiest - human nature will always tend to go for whats easiest even if not always the best case. Without reducing the damage from wms the easiest ways to reduce their use would be - remove the node increase shard altogether, make them lower at base but upgradeable, make each node work like auras and forced to be placed at least half a pulse apart (aura nearby unable to place mechanic).

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@dizzydiana quote: Nerfing the most common used tower doesnt mean its necessarily the most OP, in the present case its just the most time efficient and easiest - human nature will always tend to go for whats easiest even if not always the best case. Without reducing the damage from wms the easiest ways to reduce their use would be - remove the node increase shard altogether, make them lower at base but upgradeable, make each node work like auras and forced to be placed at least half a pulse apart (aura nearby unable to place mechanic).

most time efficient and easiest due to bugs or morally questionable mechanics^^....place defence...bam... full dmg upgraded ! ?  hello ???

and no one at trendy speaks about reducing dmg ;)

just what u said in the last part of ur post....trendy should exactly doing this imho.

and those changes wouldnt be a nerf....those changes would be necassary adjustments !

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@Icaruz quote:

really funny how the lazy dudes defend their beloved wm :D

cannot be destroyed, no "need" to upgrade, huge and absolutely safe aoe dmg, dmg hits flyer ! node/shard exploit, counter immune and safe "landing zone" for bombers^^

so its the perfect afk defence.....like NO OTHER defence ;)

and the best argument from those lazy guys is : "....make other defences viable..."....cant stop laughing seriously^^

e.g  proton beams ( oh wait..its from Eve and without wm shes useless, sry my fault)^^

pbeams ( my absolutely favorite ) +flameaura+ skyguard works great and fun to play.

pdts ( ofc strong but far away from the WM overall usefulness )

cannonballs also powerful

reflect beams wonderful against C6 hextrowers

frosties+earthshatter nice combo

etc etc....nearly every fukking tower is viable with the right relics and the right shards !

but ofc that needs also a bit more effort at building and gettin the gear/shards ( more heroes, maybe change heroes several times , repairing/upgrades and so on )

and the most important thing..playing the game awake ;)


I just think its wrong to nerf a setup just because everyone jumped on the same boat. There are many setups that are just as solid and require no upgrades as well. As mentioned in another post, if everyone was using proton beams, it would be getting the nerf instead. You don't even need walls with proton beams! how broken is that...


There are many setups that are faster than WM and more reliable. 

There are even some hero builds that are so broken atm that you can solo a lane without any defenses. ahem dps monk.


AND what would the nerf even do honestly? c7 players already have so much dmg on WM that a 25% or 40% nerf wouldn't even effect us. I could solo c7 with level c6 gear. Take away the shard swap would have 0 impact on our clears or afk ability. Even taking away its Y axis range won't set us back at all. All this nerf is doing is hurting those climbing the chaos ladder. Then they add better chances at better gear because they know what the impact will have! Just like 4000 free medals because EV2 might bite the dust for new chaos climbers who already have her and don't want to spend time building protons.

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@Icaruz quote:

-Snip-

They stated they were '...Making adjustments to reduce the dominance...'  by using the phrase 'reduce the dominance', that more than likely means a nerf.  The Node Increase bug, is a bug that should have been corrected when it was first noticed.  Letting it go as long as it has, just made the WM be used by even more people because it is a convenient way to cheese.  As I said before, I do not use WM 99% of the time, and have never used the bug because I think it is stupid.  As for making the WM a defense that is upgradeable, I would not mind that as long as the initial cost is reduced.  It is one of the most expensive defenses in the game currently, and rightly so with its current design.  If they make it like the rest of the defenses and upgradeable it would take some of the ease of use away, and make people have to do more than just 'fire and forget' as they can do now.

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@Argonias quote:

Just a note, I actually tend to use FA, PDT, Cannons, Skyguard, and if I can manage it Ramsters (sometimes not enough DU).  WM is not a defense I normally use, unless it's absolutely necessary, which 99% of the time it isn't.

I just do not like when people say the WM is the Best of the Best, because it isn't.  FA can do more, PDT can do more, Ramsters can do more.  Just because of the heavy reliance on WM, because it is an easy defense to use, isn't a good reason to nerf it.  Like I said earlier, once WM gets nerfed, FA will become the new thing to spam everywhere, more than likely.  What then?  Nerf the FA?  Just because a tower is used a lot doesn't mean it's the best overall.  I never used any auras in C1, C2, and C5.  If they added a new chaos tier with their anti-aura counter, WM would be used less and the focus would shift to PDT or Ramsters or something like those.  They should be nerfed too then?  Nerfing is not the answer, I agree with that.

It should be noted that your claims about WM performance, the target cap, and FA/PDT/Ramsters/etc. being superior to WM have literally no evidence or logic (though evidence of the contrary certainly exists (figures I have provided, Trendy's own reaction and up coming patch concerning, player excessive usage... often near 100% usage rate at some chaos tears confirmed by other posters and Trendy) with only PDT potentially at a competing level) thus far. You can keep making claims but your posts are heresy until you stop playing the "I say so so it is true" game. Not really interested in continuing such a pointless discussion, myself.

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@Xengre quote:-Snip-
 Not really interested in continuing such a pointless discussion, myself.

Nor am I.  The points I have made are valid.  I do not need the WM to do anything.  It is not the best tower out there.  It is a convenient defense, in the current system, which is why it is used.  The PDT, imo, is much more OP comparatively, but it's hard counter is worse than the Cyborks and present in C7.  I get through maps with ease with FA, PDT, Cannons (when geodes are not present), Ramsters and Skyguards.  Change the meta, and the WM would go out of style, more than likely, if it is countered.  PDTs would again be the meta, and people will be wanting the nerf there, which Trendy did say they were looking at the PDT as well as the WM for the 'adjustments to reduce dominance'.  Just because it is a convenient and easy to use defense does not make the WM OP.  Most other towers can perform just as well, if not better than the WM, given upgrades.  In another discussion about using towers to complete C7 without the WM, someone used Blaze Balloons to great effect.  Pretty sure it was also said that just about any combination of defenses could work in C7 without WM, as long as you cover each lane with appropriate defenses.

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@Argonias quote:


@Xengre quote:-Snip-
 Not really interested in continuing such a pointless discussion, myself.

Nor am I.  The points I have made are valid.  I do not need the WM to do anything.  It is not the best tower out there.  It is a convenient defense, in the current system, which is why it is used.  The PDT, imo, is much more OP comparatively, but it's hard counter is worse than the Cyborks and present in C7.  I get through maps with ease with FA, PDT, Cannons (when geodes are not present), Ramsters and Skyguards.  Change the meta, and the WM would go out of style, more than likely, if it is countered.  PDTs would again be the meta, and people will be wanting the nerf there, which Trendy did say they were looking at the PDT as well as the WM for the 'adjustments to reduce dominance'.  Just because it is a convenient and easy to use defense does not make the WM OP.  Most other towers can perform just as well, if not better than the WM, given upgrades.  In another discussion about using towers to complete C7 without the WM, someone used Blaze Balloons to great effect.  Pretty sure it was also said that just about any combination of defenses could work in C7 without WM, as long as you cover each lane with appropriate defenses.

You have not made a single valid point. Don't mean to come off harsh but it is the truth. You are giving an opinion without ANY supporting testimony whatsoever. Literally, none. Regarding the PDT, I like the tower but have yet to see my PDT pull off the kind of damage WM does and the poison doesn't stack nor does is it a crit oriented monster. I'm glad you get through content very easily with your end game gear. Kind of like the other thread you mentioned that discusses how any build works (including crazy setups such as 100% walls, also used for DPS not just blocking), etc. due to how overkill high end C7 gear is. Several posters even make this point in the thread. Not really supporting your stance. Nor is the ability to succeed with inferior options supporting your stance. Just because I can probably get from Normal to C7 using ONLY Squire tower options and heroes doesn't mean that something overpowered isn't. PDT is arguably to strong as well, though, and this isn't being denied. One potentially to powerful tower vs another OP one doesn't mean that the 2nd one can be called balance because it shares the status of being to strong atm. I know FA, PDT, Cannons work because they are what I used to get this far as I don't own EV2. Doesn't mean squat. The entire point of the topic was buffing other towers to be comparable (which would mean the game would be even easier than it already is) or nerfing WM (bringing it inline with other options that work just fine for most part so it isn't grossly outperforming).

There is a reason the community sees WM to much and why it is being patched... Not just from users with C7 gear but even for progression (it is horribly over used). Anyways, not touching this thread any further. It will be interesting to see how both PDT and WM change without potentially breaking their identity (irony being one of the core uses of WM not even being factored in due to the sheer performance of the aura... the rest gets overlooked) or over nerfing.

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@Xengre quote:

-Snip-

FA is as strong if not stronger than the WM when upgraded.  If you compare a 3 node WM (120 DU cost) to 3-4 FA (90 or 120 DU cost) placing the FA in the same spots as the WM, the FA will outperform the WM. 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1088813312

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1088813276

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1088813210

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1088813234

Not sure if the links to those work or not.  They show that 3 FA by wave 4 when placed similarly to WM, will do more damage.  The 3 FA did 199.9 Million damage.  The 3 node WM did 188 Million.

So, valid point, FA is as strong if not stronger than the WM, given upgrades during the run. 

In the current meta/chaos tier, WM is chosen because it is convenient, another valid point.

Probably made other valid points, but don't feel like going back a page or two to review everything I wrote.  And Xengre dude, all I was saying initially is the WM is NOT OP when compared to other towers, and it is not.  If you take most other defenses and use the same DU cost, upgrade them to tier 3, they outperform the WM.  WM is only used as much as it is now, because it is convenient and efficient.  I do not want them to nerf it, because it is balanced the way they designed it.  Other people have made the point that if they adjust the WM to be upgradeable instead of being at tier 2.5 from the start, should be cheaper at start in this case, it would and could fall right in line with every other defense.  I am hoping Trendy reads most of this and does not nerf the defense, an adjustment to make it upgradeable would be fine.  I just do not want to come back online and see the WM completely put out of commission.  I do not normally use it, but it is still a decent defense, I tend to use defenses I can actively buff up by upgrading because part of the fun for me is running around upgrading stuff.

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@Argonias quote: 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1088813312

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1088813276

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1088813210

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1088813234

BUT WHERE IS YOUR PROOF!?!?

HERESAY! HERESY I SAY! ... Hearsay?

Wait, which one did witches burn for again? o.o

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I realize there is a lot of good back and forth about advantages and disadvantages of the WM; it's odd that it would be allowed to do so much damage when the focus of this tower should be on the exact title of itself, the WEAPON manufacturer.  It seems simple, in my simple little brain, to reduce the damage of WM; enable upgrading of this defense, however, all upgrades enhance the damage of the weapon it creates and not the damage it deals.  The aura should be secondary to what it's primary damage source seems like it should be?  The weapon.

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