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raiden7447

Nerfing Is Not The Answer

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@Kambien quote:

Wow this is getting out of hand... They are not nerfing the damage.  They are fixing how the shards work or in other words fixing it from being exploited.

The notes actually do imply a change is coming. Here are both of the exact excerpts from the patch notes:

There’s a few bug fixes going in that will affect balance as well. Swapping shards to temporarily increase the max nodes on some of EV2’s defenses has been eliminated; you must leave the shard on the defense or the extra nodes are removed. 

This one is the part you're referring to, where they're fixing the exploit with nodes.


This is the excerpt implying they will be changed which I assume OP made the thread about:


And while the reign of the Weapon Manufacturer (and to a lesser extent, the Poison Dart Tower) has been interesting, it’s proven to be too much of a ‘one stop shop’ solution to many Chaos difficulties. As such, we’re making some adjustments to reduce its dominance, with the hopes of seeing diversity increase with these changes plus our numerous defense buffs.

They're making further adjustments to it, other than just fixing the node increase as you can see above. It's damage output or DU will likely be adjusted to make it not worthwhile compared to the other choices. It's vague, but they are completely separate paragraphs and aren't one in the same.

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$10 that WMs will still be viable for people who know how to use them, and people will still complain about how they hate seeing them. 

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Thank you!  So good to know we don't have the specifics we sometimes feel we do.  That being said.  The WM has deserved fixes and dmg reductions incoming to it.  

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@PandynatorDD quote:
@specialK quote:

Why exactly does it need a nerf and big time? Have you compared it's damage output to other towers when upgraded, and how viable would it be in other modes?

There you just said it yourself. WM with 3 nodes is the same as three Tier 3 flame auras. So for 30 more DU. you save 450 mana in upgrades.

Those 450 mana can be used to upgrade other towers.

Also why should WM be worse at other game modes? It should be given upgrade tiers like any other tower so it can also be relevant in longer game modes if that is something that will come to the game.

As far as the power... It's kinda between T2 and T3 for DPS. With a considerably smaller range. And while, yes, it does save the mana from upgrading, I still find that at the rate we get mana in the maps, I usually find Flame Auras to make runs easier than weapon man after wave 1 personally. But we could argue that till we're blue in the face...

The reason I wanted to reply was why I think it SHOULDN'T upgrade. Personally, I think it's a cool unique nature to be a stronger T1 that can't upgrade. If we had more variance in waves per map like we did in DD1 (i.e. not just 5 waves for ALL maps) I think it'd make for a more interesting niche nature. Sure, it doesn't matter as much atm, but I'd still rather it exist in case it does some day matter, rather than just make it more similar and take away a unique trait.


Now as far as nerfing it... I hate any time Trendy nerfs anything, just because their balance team always goes way over board imo... But it could probably use a minor damage reduction. Or maybe a minor bit of redesign in general (i.e. all heroes can use the weapon, less DU and less DPS from nodes) to emphasis it's original intent, instead of its current existance of basically an upgrade-less flame aura.

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Feels like the myth of the WM exceeds reality.   I'd have to say that I only see it used on 10% of high tier pub games.  Even many of the folks around here who want it nerfed admit they don't use it themselves.   

I wonder what would be the problem if we left the WM unchanged and just buffed the poor performing towers.


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@Kruntski quote:

Feels like the myth of the WM exceeds reality.   I'd have to say that I only see it used on 10% of high tier pub games.  Even many of the folks around here who want it nerfed admit they don't use it themselves.   

I wonder what would be the problem if we left the WM unchanged and just buffed the poor performing towers.


Every game I have joined in Chaos 6 has used WM.  I have won around 20 rounds at this tier.  This far exceeds 10%.


Actually, I have yet to see ANYTHING but WM in Chaos 6.

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@Travysmo quote:

Every game I have joined in Chaos 6 has used WM.  I have won around 20 rounds at this tier.  This far exceeds 10%.


Actually, I have yet to see ANYTHING but WM in Chaos 6.

Personally, and again it's a personal choice, never use WM in C6.  I'll Earthshatter, Flame Towers, Flame Auras, Skyguard, Squire or Mystic Blockades, reflect nodes, proton beams.  Plenty of ways to still easily achieve a win, and continuous wins, without WM; that being said, you prove the point that they should be adjusted if that is all you are seeing.

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WM might be used far more now than in previous times. I know I'm abusing them in preparation for the nerf. Use them while they are hot you know?

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I think that the biggest reason for the scaling down of the WM in the next patch is because it is "too easy."

Not solely because of the initial dmg.

There is little room for error in placement and in choosing ascension stats for it. There is no repercussions for using WM.


Other towers have more ascension options and shard options that make those towers harder to optimize and easier to mess up the build with. A wrong ascension choice or a wrong shard maxed out leads to several repercussions (aka I am flat broke trying to figure out the best way to optimize my mage towers due to maxing the wrong shard or paying for restats on ascension).

[And yes I know there are online builds, but some are outdated and others are not the BEST.]

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Nerfs are great! I celebrate a PDT nerf every time one comes out, I sit back with a beverage and admire the patch notes each time!

I will need counselling for PDT's in NM4 on every single map I ever joined.... My poor lightning Auras stood no chance.

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@Zimmermann quote:

Nerfs are great! I celebrate a PDT nerf every time one comes out, I sit back with a beverage and admire the patch notes each time!

I will need counselling for PDT's in NM4 on every single map I ever joined.... My poor lightning Auras stood no chance.

Woah woah Zim! Let these people be distracted by weapon man, so they don't realize PDT is by far the strongest tower in the game!

I've been in love with PDT's since before stacking was removed. Let me enjoy my over buffed beauties. Especially now that your precious auras got over buffed too :(

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The game is so stupidly easy at c7 as it is right now. Even 4 flame auras and a pdt / lane is enough to afk every map. Or 4-5 WM nodes and you can afk any map etc, etc. Trendy really need to do something about this and make the game a little bit challenging at least. Bring new game modes, buff enemies, do something please Trendy. I'd say nerf all defenses and buff enemies more. 

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@Krro quote:

The game is so stupidly easy at c7 as it is right now. Even 4 flame auras and a pdt / lane is enough to afk every map. Or 4-5 WM nodes and you can afk any map etc, etc. Trendy really need to do something about this and make the game a little bit challenging at least. Bring new game modes, buff enemies, do something please Trendy. I'd say nerf all defenses and buff enemies more. 

How are flame auras compared to the apprentice flame towers?  I have almost identical medallions on both and my flame towers seem to do so much more damage than my flame auras.  Both are shard'd the exact same, too.

Hmm...

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@Kambien quote:


@Krro quote:

The game is so stupidly easy at c7 as it is right now. Even 4 flame auras and a pdt / lane is enough to afk every map. Or 4-5 WM nodes and you can afk any map etc, etc. Trendy really need to do something about this and make the game a little bit challenging at least. Bring new game modes, buff enemies, do something please Trendy. I'd say nerf all defenses and buff enemies more. 

How are flame auras compared to the apprentice flame towers?  I have almost identical medallions on both and my flame towers seem to do so much more damage than my flame auras.  Both are shard'd the exact same, too.

Hmm...

Well flame aura damage all enemies inside its radius even flying enemies and you can place them so they overlap the path enemies walk. I like a mark with defense rate, deadly strikes and defense crit damage. 

Probably 2 flame auras and 1 pdt per lane is enough for easy clear in c7. One FA up at the spawner and one FA covering the wall

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@Krro quote:

The game is so stupidly easy at c7 as it is right now. Even 4 flame auras and a pdt / lane is enough to afk every map. Or 4-5 WM nodes and you can afk any map etc, etc. Trendy really need to do something about this and make the game a little bit challenging at least. Bring new game modes, buff enemies, do something please Trendy. I'd say nerf all defenses and buff enemies more. 

I agree, I solo'd Chaos 7 (using WM) last night and I am not even geared enough to get Chaos 7 gear (I still received Chaos 6 equivalent gear from bosses).  It is very strange that the later Chaos transitions are much much easier than the earlier Chaos transitions.  I assume this is most likely due to the larger spread of gear value in the later Chaos modes (i.e. 80 gold spread for relics going from Chaos 1 to Chaos 2, and a 335 gold spread for relics going from Chaos 6 to Chaos 7).

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@Krro quote:

The game is so stupidly easy at c7 as it is right now. Even 4 flame auras and a pdt / lane is enough to afk every map. Or 4-5 WM nodes and you can afk any map etc, etc. Trendy really need to do something about this and make the game a little bit challenging at least. Bring new game modes, buff enemies, do something please Trendy. I'd say nerf all defenses and buff enemies more. 

Yeah... we definitely need a new game mode. What a lot of people don't seem to realize is that going from C1 to C2 is really just about as hard as going from C6 to C7. Trials isn't built to be a challenge, it's just built as a progression mode, and with no other options atm, it's kinda already as hard as they can make it without turning away portions of the player base.

@Kambien quote:

How are flame auras compared to the apprentice flame towers?  I have almost identical medallions on both and my flame towers seem to do so much more damage than my flame auras.  Both are shard'd the exact same, too.

Hmm...

Numerically, they kinda look comparable, but testing wise you should pretty easily find flame auras outperform by a good margin. They have better effective range - they don't have to be placed off to the side, hit their entire range 24/7 instead of a line, have a better range scaler - and upgrade MUCH more.

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While some are saying Flame Aura are comparable or better this seems to be, from my experience of what I have seen (note I do note own the EV2 but have seen people in my games when farming shards with max C7 gear) the WM do 10x to 14x the Damage Dealt of Flame Aura at T1 (not DPS, damage dealt is what you should be looking at and anyone looking elsewhere is going to be very wrong). In those games I always try to max an overlapping Flame Aura to T5 to see how it compares and it still doesn't even come close. I have seen some similar but not as severe results with Proton Beam as well. Perhaps a big part of the issue is that WM may not be limited to 8 targets max at a time (no idea but couldn't find any info suggesting such online) allowing it to totally outstrip Flame Aura and any other defense in the game by massive margins. WM doesn't need a slight nerf, it needs an oppressive nerf to bring it in line. Then they can focus on buffing towers. Buffing stuff to WM's level would only make the game far to easy then it already is. I don't believe these people are abusing the exploit because the times I checked the stats did not change from the moment they were placed and after in the tooltip (even if part of the stats are wrong it should have changed somewhat).

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The WM is only OP because it is essentially tier 3 when it is put down and can't be upgraded. By the end of a match with flame auras, I have about a 50/50 mix of tier 2 and tier 3 FAs. As others have pointed out, a tier 3 WM node is about the same as a tier 3 FA so the real difference between the two is the upgrade or lack thereof. Some have said they are immune to EMP orcs so there is that advantage too. The cost of the main node may balance that somewhat. (I don't know because I don't use them).

Just making it upgradable will not solve the problem however since you would be able to upgrade up to 7 nodes with one 50 mana upgrade so it would still be a lot cheaper.

EDIT: remove misleading information...

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@Ubara-tutu quote:

The WM is only OP because it is essentially tier 3 when it is put down and can't be upgraded. By the end of a match with flame auras, I have about a 50/50 mix of tier 2 and tier 3 FAs. As others have pointed out, a tier 3 WM node is about the same as a tier 3 FA so the real difference between the two is the upgrade or lack thereof. Some have said they are immune to EMP orcs so there is that advantage too. The cost of the main node may balance that somewhat. (I don't know because I don't use them).

Just making it upgradable will not solve the problem however since you would be able to upgrade up to 7 nodes with one 50 mana upgrade so it would still be a lot cheaper.

WM is not immune to EMP orcs.  If even one node is hit the entire thing goes down.  I also think in my case I've noticed that a tier 3 FA outperforms the WM, has a larger area of effect and dps is slightly higher (the Area of effect is probably because of the range gambit, WM does not get that option).  The WM though beings it does not get a range gambit does not lose defense power where the FA does, instead I've just been putting into Defense Critical Damage, which means the higher ascension I go WM is just getting purely buffed, where the FA will continue to lose Defense Power for Range, at least till I get the 50 points in the range gambit.  Range gambit I think takes 20 DP per point, so only a 1000 DP loss in the long run, but if ascension levels cap I probably won't be able to put as much DCD points in either, so another loss for the FA in power, when compared to WM.


@Xengre quote:

While some are saying Flame Aura are comparable or better this seems to be, from my experience of what I have seen (note I do note own the EV2 but have seen people in my games when farming shards with max C7 gear) the WM do 10x to 14x the Damage Dealt of Flame Aura at T1 (not DPS, damage dealt is what you should be looking at and anyone looking elsewhere is going to be very wrong). In those games I always try to max an overlapping Flame Aura to T5 to see how it compares and it still doesn't even come close. I have seen some similar but not as severe results with Proton Beam as well. Perhaps a big part of the issue is that WM may not be limited to 8 targets max at a time (no idea but couldn't find any info suggesting such online) allowing it to totally outstrip Flame Aura and any other defense in the game by massive margins. WM doesn't need a slight nerf, it needs an oppressive nerf to bring it in line. Then they can focus on buffing towers. Buffing stuff to WM's level would only make the game far to easy then it already is. I don't believe these people are abusing the exploit because the times I checked the stats did not change from the moment they were placed and after in the tooltip (even if part of the stats are wrong it should have changed somewhat).

Looking at the damage dealt by a WM is going to be off when compared to a single FA.  Depending on how many nodes the WM has, it totals all the damage dealt by all the nodes.  So for a 3 Node WM, you would have to compare 3 FA at least.  I haven't done that myself, so no idea how that comparison will look.  As for the max targets, I have no idea.  I, however, disagree, WM does not need even a slight nerf.  They needed to bring the Node Increase shard bug back into line, but other than that the WM should be fine.  Placing one 120 DU (3 damage node) WM should initially outperform 1-2 FA, when initially placed.  Once the FA's get upgraded they are doing more damage, a lot of the time though that takes at least a wave or two to occur.  So in the current 5 wave design that Trendy has, the WM is better.  Once we get Onslaught or an Endless mode where there will be many more waves, the FA will outperform the WM.  WM might be placed initially to do a bit of damage but you can have 4 FA, for the cost of a 3 node WM.  Those 4 FA will completely outstrip the WM when you get some upgrades into them.

WM is a 2.5 tier tower when placed, with 3-7 nodes.  Each of those nodes is comparable to a FA being around 2.5 upgrades.  So with the current 5 wave system, which limits the amount of green mana you can use, the WM will always outperform.  With a endless/onslaught mode having a lot more waves the FA won't do as much initially when placed but will outperform the WM, as you will have the green mana necessary to upgrade them all to max tier. 

Doing some quick tests in a Private tavern.  All with the same Medallion, with Defense Rate, Power Transfer and Destruction Shards.  Using 120 DU as my baseline since that is what the 3 node WM takes.

3 Node WM over 62 seconds did 55,519,388 damage, which equals 895,474 DPS.

4 FA with no upgrades over 66 seconds with around 6 seconds setup time did 40,149,714 damage, which equals 608,329 DPS.

4 FA with 1 upgrade each over 70 seconds with around 9 seconds setup time did 61,696,320 damage, which equals 881,376 dps.

4 FA with 2 upgrades each over 69.5 seconds with around 11 seconds setup time did 77,095,238 damage, which equals 1,109,284 DPS.

Didn't bother with the 3 upgrades since the 2 upgrades already outdid the WM, I did the full upgraded FA test first just to see the damage.

4 FA fully upgraded over 82 seconds with around 20 seconds setup time did 130,175,738 damage, which equals 1,587,509 DPS.

That shows with more green mana the FA would completely outclass the WM in damage.  In 5 waves the WM will do more, with more than 5 waves the FA will outperform.  So, in my opinion, the WM should not be nerfed because it will not be a powerful contender in anything that lets you have more green mana for upgrades.  It is only powerful right now because we are limited to only 5 wave missions.

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@Kambien quote:

I agree nerf's really need to be carefully reviewed; however, they are not nerfing WM's they are simply changing how the shards work (a bug).  They have not stated they are changing it's damage.

PDT's are widely used and any reduction to their sustainability should only bring them in line with other similar units - but at this, harpies perch and flame doggies, should be buffed slightly.

Again, WM is NOT being nerfed - it's having it's bugs removed.

So, this paragraph was in the patch 1.0.3 preview:

"And while the reign of the Weapon Manufacturer (and to a lesser extent, the Poison Dart Tower) has been interesting, it’s proven to be too much of a ‘one stop shop’ solution to many Chaos difficulties. As such, we’re making some adjustments to reduce its dominance, with the hopes of seeing diversity increase with these changes plus our numerous defense buffs."


Not sure how you take that, but that to me is saying WM and to a lesser degree, the PDT, are going to get nerfed because they are used too much.  Not sure how else I could take the "...We're making some adjustments to reduce its dominance...".  That to me screams, yea, this tower is used way too much so it is getting nerfed.  That, imo, is not a good thing at all. 

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PDT is actually the #1 offensive structure in the game atm not WM. PDT is way more consistent in DMG than a 30% chance to crit. AND that is the part most overlook...its not 100% chance to crit, its 30%. 800k-900k crit dmg seems high for a node on WM but there is only a 30% chance of that DMG to proc and at a .41 speed.


I don't know how many times a mob gets through WM without getting crit once, while nothing gets past a PDT (not factoring geodes and not factoring cyborks).

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@Argonias quote:
@Xengre quote:

While some are saying Flame Aura are comparable or better this seems to be, from my experience of what I have seen (note I do note own the EV2 but have seen people in my games when farming shards with max C7 gear) the WM do 10x to 14x the Damage Dealt of Flame Aura at T1 (not DPS, damage dealt is what you should be looking at and anyone looking elsewhere is going to be very wrong). In those games I always try to max an overlapping Flame Aura to T5 to see how it compares and it still doesn't even come close. I have seen some similar but not as severe results with Proton Beam as well. Perhaps a big part of the issue is that WM may not be limited to 8 targets max at a time (no idea but couldn't find any info suggesting such online) allowing it to totally outstrip Flame Aura and any other defense in the game by massive margins. WM doesn't need a slight nerf, it needs an oppressive nerf to bring it in line. Then they can focus on buffing towers. Buffing stuff to WM's level would only make the game far to easy then it already is. I don't believe these people are abusing the exploit because the times I checked the stats did not change from the moment they were placed and after in the tooltip (even if part of the stats are wrong it should have changed somewhat).

Looking at the damage dealt by a WM is going to be off when compared to a single FA.  Depending on how many nodes the WM has, it totals all the damage dealt by all the nodes.  So for a 3 Node WM, you would have to compare 3 FA at least.  I haven't done that myself, so no idea how that comparison will look.  As for the max targets, I have no idea.  I, however, disagree, WM does not need even a slight nerf.  They needed to bring the Node Increase shard bug back into line, but other than that the WM should be fine.  Placing one 120 DU (3 damage node) WM should initially outperform 1-2 FA, when initially placed.  Once the FA's get upgraded they are doing more damage, a lot of the time though that takes at least a wave or two to occur.  So in the current 5 wave design that Trendy has, the WM is better.  Once we get Onslaught or an Endless mode where there will be many more waves, the FA will outperform the WM.  WM might be placed initially to do a bit of damage but you can have 4 FA, for the cost of a 3 node WM.  Those 4 FA will completely outstrip the WM when you get some upgrades into them.

WM is a 2.5 tier tower when placed, with 3-7 nodes.  Each of those nodes is comparable to a FA being around 2.5 upgrades.  So with the current 5 wave system, which limits the amount of green mana you can use, the WM will always outperform.  With a endless/onslaught mode having a lot more waves the FA won't do as much initially when placed but will outperform the WM, as you will have the green mana necessary to upgrade them all to max tier. 

Doing some quick tests in a Private tavern.  All with the same Medallion, with Defense Rate, Power Transfer and Destruction Shards.  Using 120 DU as my baseline since that is what the 3 node WM takes.

3 Node WM over 62 seconds did 55,519,388 damage, which equals 895,474 DPS.

4 FA with no upgrades over 66 seconds with around 6 seconds setup time did 40,149,714 damage, which equals 608,329 DPS.

4 FA with 1 upgrade each over 70 seconds with around 9 seconds setup time did 61,696,320 damage, which equals 881,376 dps.

4 FA with 2 upgrades each over 69.5 seconds with around 11 seconds setup time did 77,095,238 damage, which equals 1,109,284 DPS.

Didn't bother with the 3 upgrades since the 2 upgrades already outdid the WM, I did the full upgraded FA test first just to see the damage.

4 FA fully upgraded over 82 seconds with around 20 seconds setup time did 130,175,738 damage, which equals 1,587,509 DPS.

That shows with more green mana the FA would completely outclass the WM in damage.  In 5 waves the WM will do more, with more than 5 waves the FA will outperform.  So, in my opinion, the WM should not be nerfed because it will not be a powerful contender in anything that lets you have more green mana for upgrades.  It is only powerful right now because we are limited to only 5 wave missions.

No, looking at the damage from a WM in a lower chaos game from someone with near/maxed C7 gear is going to be accurate because almost nothing will make it past the first node from WM (something that isn't true for Flame Aura even when able to 1-shot unless you have a massive range which has substantial disadvantages for FA and also can be totally ignored when comparing damage values here). You can further verify by the fact that all mana is dropped at the first node for any lane you aren't watching. The problem is T5 FA with identical stats are NOT doing more damage than a WM node it appears (even if the DPS may seem comparable, which it has not thus far in my experience, the actual damage dealt by its ability to hit more targets or higher DPS results in a absolutely massive gap in damage dealt node for node). Do not look at DPS this is incorrect. Look at damage dealt. Everyone in this thread is looking at DPS. Damage dealt a T5 flame aura appears to be getting obliterated from what I have seen on several cases. It should perform as you suggest but this is not happening at current and that is the problem. Instead, it drastically outperforms.

You tried to claim in your personal tests FA was outperforming at X period but there are some problems...

1.) You didn't include WM setup time and the longer duration from FA just to equal to WM... Definitely can't say your tests were accurate for use in the discussion.

2.) The reason WM may be so massively outperforming FA might be due to the 8 target limit on FA that WM may not have. The actual damage dealt is what is relevant here, not DPS, which being shared by multiple nodes is giving no advantage to WM due to the fact nothing reached past node #1 in real world experience when I was comparing.

Yes, the game is limited to 5 wave missions and the FA is still limited to 8 targets max which severely hurts its ability to deal with groups and weed out enemies like Kobolds/Geodes reliably well before walls unless your stats substantially outclass the difficulty level.

A better test would probably be to do a couple of runs with 1 WM node at spawn and one at walls, then same with FA, and compare damage dealt and how effective it was (could it protect your walls without your help bar repairs? how healthy were your walls during the rounds, could you even beat the map with just this method, damage dealt at spawn and damage dealt at wall on average) on a difficulty that at least some stuff can get past the first defense and reach the one at the walls.

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@Xengre quote:

-snip-

Both of your tests frankly leave plenty of room for error, but getting a completely accurate one will be almost impossible with the tools we have... So not like I expect anyone to have a valid physical test.

As far as the target cap... As I recall, the same patch that reduced the AOE cap from 10 to 8 also applied that cap universally. Previously fissures, weapon mans, and a few others were immune to that cap. Now, unless there is a bug (which granted is entirely possible) weapon man should have a 8 person cap.

Provided there even is a bug... It'd be almost entirely irrelevant. The amount of mobs we get in DD2 at a time really don't create a situation too often where there are more than 8 monsters in a weapon man's node's range, and in these rare situations it is pretty much only due to goblins, who die in less than a second, and reduce the count to under 8. Again, making it irrelevant.

As far as "not including the setup time for weapon man"... well there is no setup time. All the nodes are placed at the same time, because the game creates them as a single entity. This is also the same reason that EMP orcs stun the entire weapon man instead of a single node. His calculations factoring out "setup time" does create a bias however, and should not have been done.

Now on to your testing...

As far as stacking a weapon man and an aura on the same location... well there are a lot of technicalities that can very easily result in inaccuracies for this. For starters, perfectly aligning these is impossible. Combined with refresh rates, potential priorities of execution (while things appear simultaneous, they are really not), etc, this kind of testing can be next to impossible to completely validate.

Then... as far as your fixation on damage over DPS, could you provide me a logical reason as to why two towers that mechanically function identically for their damage executions (i.e. both coded as an aura) would have any difference in their total damage given the same conditions? Emphasis on the same conditions, as, again, your tests leaves room for outside variables to affect their conditions. If this were something like PDT vs flame aura, I'd understand. But not so much for Aura vs Aura.

Without any reason to believe there is a factor that creates a difference (the only one I can think of is range, which favors flame aura, and could really still be numerically evaluated), the most effective and accurate comparison of the two is numerical averages of their DPS.

And lastly (because this post is a mile long already...) some considerations for your"better" test; If the only DPS on 2 separate lanes are two separate towers, damage delt for each of those lanes will be 100% of the monsters HP for those lanes. Meaning the comparison of "damage delt" is not an evaluation of the towers effectiveness, but a summation of the total HP of the monsters that lane happened to spawn. Which can be affected by the lanes you happened to choose, as well as the passives that happened to roll on those lanes (i.e. more HP, health regen, etc.).

Because of these same biases, as well as the addition of lane positioning, measuring the amount of damage taken by a wall also fails to be an accurate measurement. Once again bringing us back to DPS as a more effective means of measuring these two almost identically functioning towers.


So all in all... Weapon man is strong. Weapon man probably deserves some nerfs. Weapon man is NOT 10x stronger than a T5 flame aura however... and does NOT need to be absolutely massacred as you're suggesting. There are a lot of arguments against my comparisons to flame auras that I will give some leniency, but I'm afraid despite your respectable efforts in creating it, I find yours extremely erroneous.

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@Xengre quote:-Snip_

So, just to say, you realize you get DPS by measuring the damage done per second?  Damage done over XX amount of time can be turned into DPS numbers.  So your suggestion to look at the damage done by the WM compared to the FA and not the DPS is kind of silly.  The literal reason WM currently outperforms the FA is because we are limited to 5 waves.  To get through a level you can not upgrade a bunch (3 or 4) of FA to tier 2 or 3 on each lane.  You can however drop WM, because you do not need to upgrade it.  If there were more waves of enemies say 10 or 15, it would be preferable at that point to use 4 FA (costs the same DU) along the lanes over the 3 node WM, because the FA would outperform as soon as you can get the upgrades across them.

1.  WM doesn't take any setup time.

2. As xArcAngel stated all auras got the same 8 enemy limitation, so not a valid point either.


@xArcAngel quote:

Both of your tests frankly leave plenty of room for error, but getting a completely accurate one will be almost impossible with the tools we have... So not like I expect anyone to have a valid physical test.

-Snip-
 His calculations factoring out "setup time" does create a bias however, and should not have been done.

-Snip-

So all in all... Weapon man is strong. Weapon man probably deserves some nerfs. Weapon man is NOT 10x stronger than a T5 flame aura however... and does NOT need to be absolutely massacred as you're suggesting. There are a lot of arguments against my comparisons to flame auras that I will give some leniency, but I'm afraid despite your respectable efforts in creating it, I find yours extremely erroneous.

Honestly, my test is not foolproof and probably can't be considered a 'valid' test, but as you say "getting a completely accurate one will be almost impossible with the tools we have".  I still think though that the test remains valid for the point I was making.  The Flame Aura performs as well or better, using the same DU cost, as the WM, if the green mana was readily available to upgrade the FA.  DU is the limiting factor on most maps for how many defenses we can put down.  Green mana is only limited by how many waves we are to go through.  So with Onslaught coming out 'soon', we should see an increase in the usage of FA over WM.  Granted with the 'adjustments' Trendy is making, we will probably see the FA spam start even sooner.

As for my previous tests, I only included the setup time required because I have no way to drop 4 FA at whatever upgrade level in 0 seconds like the WM, which comes out at 2.5.  That is also why I let the tests run a small amount longer on the FA runs.  To be honest, the test is biased towards the WM, it comes out already going at full power, nothing extra needed, FA requires more time for the setup and so is not going at full or whatever level of power for the time it takes to get them setup.  Also, the longer the defenses run, the more accurate the DPS # should be.  So, if wanted I could let the WM run for 5-10 minutes and then the FA run for the same, the DPS # listed then should be pretty accurate as to how much DPS those towers will do.  As I stated initially, all I did was just throw out a quick test.

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