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raiden7447

Nerfing Is Not The Answer

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I heard that weapon mans and pdts were going to be nerfed. How about we make the other towers just as viable too instead of nerfing good towers. It's not an easy fix to make all towers nearly equal in viability, but that's what needs to happen. If you nerf a strong tower, then there will be a new strong tower which I guess you think will need to be nerfed. I got an idea, how bout we nerf all defenses into the ground so we can't beat chaos levels.

I seriously don't think pdts and weapon mans are too strong, just get all the other defenses up to par. Then players will start to use other towers. And if people complain about the overuse of pdts and weapon mans, then they can build their own maps with whatever defenses they want instead of complaining!


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I don't think PDT's are too strong, but weapon mfg needs a nerf, big time. When its the only build used late game, you know it needs to be tuned. If you make every tower in the game overpowered like the weapon mfg, then the game will be wayyyyy too easy. 

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@raiden7447 quote:

I heard that weapon mans and pdts were going to be nerfed. How about we make the other towers just as viable too instead of nerfing good towers. It's not an easy fix to make all towers nearly equal in viability, but that's what needs to happen. If you nerf a strong tower, then there will be a new strong tower which I guess you think will need to be nerfed. I got an idea, how bout we nerf all defenses into the ground so we can't beat chaos levels.

I seriously don't think pdts and weapon mans are too strong, just get all the other defenses up to par. Then players will start to use other towers. And if people complain about the overuse of pdts and weapon mans, then they can build their own maps with whatever defenses they want instead of complaining!


Yes I agree and this has been discussed many times with the why. However the node glitch needs, should and is correct to be addressed to.


@Derek564 quote:

I don't think PDT's are too strong, but weapon mfg needs a nerf, big time. When its the only build used late game, you know it needs to be tuned. If you make every tower in the game overpowered like the weapon mfg, then the game will be wayyyyy too easy. 

Why exactly does it need a nerf and big time? Have you compared it's damage output to other towers when upgraded, and how viable would it be in other modes? Anyway I seriously do not wish to start this conversation again. People will say as they wish, I prefer when we talk about balance and numbers, math to actually be in the reasoning, and not just because "I see it everywhere around". That is because it is an easy to set up solution. It is not by far the most effective nor best defence in the game. We have discussed this, and as Trendy has stated, it is getting reworked in some sort which we'll know on when the patch comes out.

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"I don't want to get into this again, but i am going to make a statement that brings me into this again". 
You must religiously use the weapon mfg and be sad panda that you aren't going to have it as a crutch anymore. I have only used it once because of how overpowered it is. It took all of the fun away from the game... So i don't have exact numerical data to compare, but the weapon mfg is such an obvious outlier that no data is needed to justify a nerf. Although, i'm sure Trendy has some numbers on it, maybe [[4370,users]] can assist you with justifying their upcoming nerf. 

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I agree nerf's really need to be carefully reviewed; however, they are not nerfing WM's they are simply changing how the shards work (a bug).  They have not stated they are changing it's damage.

PDT's are widely used and any reduction to their sustainability should only bring them in line with other similar units - but at this, harpies perch and flame doggies, should be buffed slightly.

Again, WM is NOT being nerfed - it's having it's bugs removed.

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@raiden7447 quote:

I heard that weapon mans and pdts were going to be nerfed. How about we make the other towers just as viable too instead of nerfing good towers. It's not an easy fix to make all towers nearly equal in viability, but that's what needs to happen. If you nerf a strong tower, then there will be a new strong tower which I guess you think will need to be nerfed. I got an idea, how bout we nerf all defenses into the ground so we can't beat chaos levels.

I seriously don't think pdts and weapon mans are too strong, just get all the other defenses up to par. Then players will start to use other towers. And if people complain about the overuse of pdts and weapon mans, then they can build their own maps with whatever defenses they want instead of complaining!


I can afk Chaos 6 with WM and I am still not even half way to max C6 gear.  If I were to use other buildings, I would not be able to complete a round solo in my current gear.


It definitely needs a nerf. 

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From trendy patch notes:

And while the reign of the Weapon Manufacturer (and to a lesser extent, the Poison Dart Tower) has been interesting, it’s proven to be too much of a ‘one stop shop’ solution to many Chaos difficulties. As such, we’re making some adjustments to reduce its dominance, with the hopes of seeing diversity increase with these changes plus our numerous defense buffs.

so it does seem like its getting a nerf, but it is a bit up in the air as it could be a rework of some kind. In regards to their power, they are only really strong due to the short nature of a trials map. You would be shooting yourself in the foot trying to use them in a survival style mode.

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Logically, shouldn't the weapon that is manufactured be doing the most dmg (it won't one shot assassins, sad day) while the AoE dmg from the nodes be minuscule?


The current design makes almost zero sense to me.

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@Travysmo quote:


@raiden7447 quote:

I heard that weapon mans and pdts were going to be nerfed. How about we make the other towers just as viable too instead of nerfing good towers. It's not an easy fix to make all towers nearly equal in viability, but that's what needs to happen. If you nerf a strong tower, then there will be a new strong tower which I guess you think will need to be nerfed. I got an idea, how bout we nerf all defenses into the ground so we can't beat chaos levels.

I seriously don't think pdts and weapon mans are too strong, just get all the other defenses up to par. Then players will start to use other towers. And if people complain about the overuse of pdts and weapon mans, then they can build their own maps with whatever defenses they want instead of complaining!


I can afk Chaos 6 with WM and I am still not even half way to max C6 gear.  If I were to use other buildings, I would not be able to complete a round solo in my current gear.


It definitely needs a nerf. 

That is absolutely so wrong in so many different levels.

Did you try to find other defences to use, or because you knew WMs was the "easy way out" you didn't bother to try other builds. I have actually found that with build with just the basic 4 heroes it was much easier to do Chaos 6, and Chaos 7. It is just that everyone looks for the easy way out.


@Derek564 quote:

"I don't want to get into this again, but i am going to make a statement that brings me into this again". 
You must religiously use the weapon mfg and be sad panda that you aren't going to have it as a crutch anymore. I have only used it once because of how overpowered it is. It took all of the fun away from the game... So i don't have exact numerical data to compare, but the weapon mfg is such an obvious outlier that no data is needed to justify a nerf. Although, i'm sure Trendy has some numbers on it, maybe iamisom can assist you with justifying their upcoming nerf. 

I really do not how to answer to this without starting a flame war. I leave to this. But I suggest you start thinking for yourself and finding things out, and maybe experimenting a bit. It is maybe because I have bull*** detector enabled

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@specialK quote:

Why exactly does it need a nerf and big time? Have you compared it's damage output to other towers when upgraded, and how viable would it be in other modes?

There you just said it yourself. WM with 3 nodes is the same as three Tier 3 flame auras. So for 30 more DU. you save 450 mana in upgrades.

Those 450 mana can be used to upgrade other towers.

Also why should WM be worse at other game modes? It should be given upgrade tiers like any other tower so it can also be relevant in longer game modes if that is something that will come to the game.

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@specialK quote:


@Travysmo quote:


@raiden7447 quote:

I heard that weapon mans and pdts were going to be nerfed. How about we make the other towers just as viable too instead of nerfing good towers. It's not an easy fix to make all towers nearly equal in viability, but that's what needs to happen. If you nerf a strong tower, then there will be a new strong tower which I guess you think will need to be nerfed. I got an idea, how bout we nerf all defenses into the ground so we can't beat chaos levels.

I seriously don't think pdts and weapon mans are too strong, just get all the other defenses up to par. Then players will start to use other towers. And if people complain about the overuse of pdts and weapon mans, then they can build their own maps with whatever defenses they want instead of complaining!


I can afk Chaos 6 with WM and I am still not even half way to max C6 gear.  If I were to use other buildings, I would not be able to complete a round solo in my current gear.


It definitely needs a nerf. 

That is absolutely so wrong in so many different levels.

Did you try to find other defences to use, or because you knew WMs was the "easy way out" you didn't bother to try other builds. I have actually found that with build with just the basic 4 heroes it was much easier to do Chaos 6, and Chaos 7. It is just that everyone looks for the easy way out.



It is not wrong, on any level.  If I were to attempt the same thing, with say, Flame Aura, the results would be disastrous.  If you think 4 Flame Auras will match 1 WM, I suggest you try it using similar gold value items.   


And as a side note to your "attack" against me in using other defenses, yes I have used all defenses on all four of the starting characters as well as EV2, and as the community agrees, WM is far above and beyond the rest.  In all actuality, it is not even remotely close.  The only thing that can compete is PDT, however, geodes eliminate the possibility of PDT on some chaos modes.

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@PandynatorDD quote:


@specialK quote:

Why exactly does it need a nerf and big time? Have you compared it's damage output to other towers when upgraded, and how viable would it be in other modes?

There you just said it yourself. WM with 3 nodes is the same as three Tier 3 flame auras. So for 30 more DU. you save 450 mana in upgrades.

Those 450 mana can be used to upgrade other towers.

Also why should WM be worse at other game modes? It should be given upgrade tiers like any other tower so it can also be relevant in longer game modes if that is something that will come to the game.

This also, why not instead of it receiving a stat nerf they scale it back and make it upgradeable?   

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actually flame aura is very close to WM. Keep in mind FA has way more range than WM can have.

30 gems for 500k dps :: FA

120 gems for 2400k dps :: WM

120 gems for 2000k dps :: 4 FA

so 400k less dmg wave 1 but with upgrades on wave 2 FA becomes way better

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How are people not reading the notes?  They are not changing the damage of WM they are removing the ability to swap the shards and retain the stats/effects those shards provide unless equipped.  WM is only truly OP for those who exploit the shards.  Something that should be taken into account here.

Various defenses should be buffed (in various ways, not damage alone); however, WM should never have been a go to.  The damage it is capable of should be cut 40-60% as the point of WM is the weapon it produces for EV2, not as a standalone defense unit.  

Logic and common sense combined, WM should be brought down in terms of it's individual node damage and a focus placed on the weapon it produces.  

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@PandynatorDD quote:


@specialK quote:

Why exactly does it need a nerf and big time? Have you compared it's damage output to other towers when upgraded, and how viable would it be in other modes?

There you just said it yourself. WM with 3 nodes is the same as three Tier 3 flame auras. So for 30 more DU. you save 450 mana in upgrades.

Those 450 mana can be used to upgrade other towers.

Also why should WM be worse at other game modes? It should be given upgrade tiers like any other tower so it can also be relevant in longer game modes if that is something that will come to the game.

Pandy that is a different issue, you do not want it nerfed, you want it changed. Why use it that mana on other defences and not on Auras and other defences, The same as you use for upgrading one defence you use it for another, but you actually bring m to what I am saying that people will always try to find the easy way out, the easiest tower to build, so what is the solution to keep nerfing/buffing? Where is the progress in this, I would much rather have new content, than always going back and forth.

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@Travysmo quote:


@specialK quote:


@Travysmo quote:


@raiden7447 quote:

I heard that weapon mans and pdts were going to be nerfed. How about we make the other towers just as viable too instead of nerfing good towers. It's not an easy fix to make all towers nearly equal in viability, but that's what needs to happen. If you nerf a strong tower, then there will be a new strong tower which I guess you think will need to be nerfed. I got an idea, how bout we nerf all defenses into the ground so we can't beat chaos levels.

I seriously don't think pdts and weapon mans are too strong, just get all the other defenses up to par. Then players will start to use other towers. And if people complain about the overuse of pdts and weapon mans, then they can build their own maps with whatever defenses they want instead of complaining!


I can afk Chaos 6 with WM and I am still not even half way to max C6 gear.  If I were to use other buildings, I would not be able to complete a round solo in my current gear.


It definitely needs a nerf. 

That is absolutely so wrong in so many different levels.

Did you try to find other defences to use, or because you knew WMs was the "easy way out" you didn't bother to try other builds. I have actually found that with build with just the basic 4 heroes it was much easier to do Chaos 6, and Chaos 7. It is just that everyone looks for the easy way out.



It is not wrong, on any level.  If I were to attempt the same thing, with say, Flame Aura, the results would be disastrous.  If you think 4 Flame Auras will match 1 WM, I suggest you try it using similar gold value items.   


And as a side note to your "attack" against me in using other defenses, yes I have used all defenses on all four of the starting characters as well as EV2, and as the community agrees, WM is far above and beyond the rest.  In all actuality, it is not even remotely close.  The only thing that can compete is PDT, however, geodes eliminate the possibility of PDT on some chaos modes.

What attack? That was a question. Have you tried using other towers to success in C6, not just once but tried to find a build that succeeds. I have And it is much better than WMs. It is a fact. 

Your first sentence is a sign that you haven't

It is not an attack. I am trying to say it is not the most viable option by far. I understand that people because they see it all the time they assume it is the most effective, but in reality it isn't. That is not a matter of getting a nerf and big time. That would destroy a defence, and leave us with even fewer choices. 

Anyway for what is worth, having op gear, any defence you put down correct will succeed, with sub par placement and not op gear, defences will fail. It actually takes skill or capacity to think to place a good defence.

Leave numbers aside, which I have showcased a lot of times, WMs are a good place and forget, against mobs with no disabling abilities but suck against special enemies. Place a WM and do not go to the lane when the special enemy spawn, your wall will get down.

Build properly with other defences, you can basically afk any map. 

None of the two is correct. The balance for me is to always actively play but afk builds will always be the holy grail of defence games.


@Travysmo quote:


@PandynatorDD quote:


@specialK quote:

Why exactly does it need a nerf and big time? Have you compared it's damage output to other towers when upgraded, and how viable would it be in other modes?

There you just said it yourself. WM with 3 nodes is the same as three Tier 3 flame auras. So for 30 more DU. you save 450 mana in upgrades.

Those 450 mana can be used to upgrade other towers.

Also why should WM be worse at other game modes? It should be given upgrade tiers like any other tower so it can also be relevant in longer game modes if that is something that will come to the game.

This also, why not instead of it receiving a stat nerf they scale it back and make it upgradeable?   

For me because it will make it the same as other defences so we lose from defence uniqueness

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Wow this is getting out of hand... They are not nerfing the damage.  They are fixing how the shards work or in other words fixing it from being exploited.

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@Omegaknight quote:

actually flame aura is very close to WM. Keep in mind FA has way more range than WM can have.

30 gems for 500k dps :: FA

120 gems for 2400k dps :: WM

120 gems for 2000k dps :: 4 FA

so 400k less dmg wave 1 but with upgrades on wave 2 FA becomes way better

That is almost 20% less dmg for the same cost.   


As for range, have you used the range shard with WM?  It will cover almost every lane in the game with just 3 nodes, there is no need for a large range? On top of this, the Y axis range also increases, killing most (if not all) flying enemies.


While on the topic of range, the larger the range of Flame Aura, the more difficult it is to make deadzones.  While if needed, you can stack all 3 WM on top of each other leading to 2400k dps at a single bottleneck, something Flame Aura is currently not capable of doing.

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@Travysmo quote:


@Omegaknight quote:

actually flame aura is very close to WM. Keep in mind FA has way more range than WM can have.

30 gems for 500k dps :: FA

120 gems for 2400k dps :: WM

120 gems for 2000k dps :: 4 FA

so 400k less dmg wave 1 but with upgrades on wave 2 FA becomes way better

That is almost 20% less dmg for the same cost.   


As for range, have you used the range shard with WM?  It will cover almost every lane in the game with just 3 nodes, there is no need for a large range? On top of this, the Y axis range also increases, killing most (if not all) flying enemies.


While on the topic of range, the larger the range of Flame Aura, the more difficult it is to make deadzones.  While if needed, you can stack all 3 WM on top of each other leading to 2400k dps at a single bottleneck, something Flame Aura is currently not capable of doing.

The range for FA comes from ascension specs which WM does not have the option for (true the deadly strikes shard adds even more range)

Range is important to make those deadzones and still be able to spawn camp the mobs.

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@Kambien quote:

Wow this is getting out of hand... They are not nerfing the damage.  They are fixing how the shards work or in other words fixing it from being exploited.

They said they are "toning it down" which is referenced separately from the shard swap exploit.  While no numbers have been produced, it implies they are changing it.

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@Omegaknight quote:

actually flame aura is very close to WM. Keep in mind FA has way more range than WM can have.

30 gems for 500k dps :: FA

120 gems for 2400k dps :: WM

120 gems for 2000k dps :: 4 FA

so 400k less dmg wave 1 but with upgrades on wave 2 FA becomes way better

Don't say this too loud or Trendy will nerf Flame Auras as well :(

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@Travysmo quote:


@Kambien quote:

Wow this is getting out of hand... They are not nerfing the damage.  They are fixing how the shards work or in other words fixing it from being exploited.

They said they are "toning it down" which is referenced separately from the shard swap exploit.  While no numbers have been produced, it implies they are changing it.

Gotcha!  In that case, I am in support of it doing less damage.

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