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Derek564

Playing very casually and already at C3, soon to be at C4....What's left after?

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Disclaimer*

Before reading *MY PERSONAL OPINION* of DD2, please read the following statements before posting butthurt comments and telling me: to go find a new game, if you hate it so much/it works as designed/its a work in progress/you aren't building it right etc.

-I know that not every piece of content is out yet, such as survival, more maps and characters to come etc. 

-I understand how the loot system works, its just idiotic.

-I am progressing really fast, given the fact that i only get to play a few hours once or twice a week. 

-I am using a combination of the meta and my own strategies to clear content. 

-I am using a dummy toon to equip all of the newest, presumably highest ipwr gear.

-I still enjoy DD2, this is just the list of things that i feel would make it that much better (mostly just tidbits from their original creation-DD1).

-I tested this since the beginning and have given them over $100 in exchange for pre-alpha access and purchasing a starter pack for Xbox One upon release. In no way, shape or form am i trying to convince anyone to quit DD2 or anything silly like that. I just want this game to live up to the reputation of DD1, or at least come close. 


DD1 had replay value in many ways that i don't think DD2 has.

Pets: DD1: Must have. Worth doing 15 waves of survival and killing tens of thousands of enemies to get a chance at a good pet that has the right stats and a ton of upgrade levels.

DD2: Maybe get a pet if you think it looks cool, not necessary though. 

Gear: DD1: Progression seemed endless and there was always a special map to farm a certain weapon that we desired. Even after getting the weapon you wanted, you may have gotten it with sub-optimal upgrade levels, so its worth it to farm a better one with 150+ upgrade levels. 

DD2: Play the cookie-cutter 1-7 chaos trials to get gear. Upgrade levels are always the same, so it doesn't matter. Also, if you don't feel like playing the game, buy your weapon of choice at the wayfarer shop. 

Strategy: DD1: Varies from person to person and differs on every map. 

DD2: Most Chaos Trials = Weapon Manufacturer and Sky Guard Towers or try a different game. 

Team Play: DD1: Split screen and online COOP were great. Always played with friends and was rewarded with more gear for doing so.

DD2: Pitched split screen, but i have tried it every day since launch and it hasn't worked once yet. (On Xbox One)

Stat Allocation and Customization: DD1: Got the privilege of placing all of my stat points in what i wanted them to be in. 

DD2: No stat allocation until level 50. At level 50, you get ascension levels which you get to pick the stat you want 1/3rd of the time. Seems like a lazy band-aid for the lack of progression in this game. I don't know about you guys, but i don't get much satisfaction from those ascension levels and allocated that one stat point into the category i want to every three levels. 

Free To Play: DD1: Free to play. Option to purchase new maps and things that are not necessary to game play. 

DD2: Pay to win. DD2 promised not to run on a pay to win structure, but if i can buy the best pet in the game (still practically useless against anything other than bosses) and all of the shards that my heart desires (aside from C7 shards), while purchasing more heroes that may be the current meta and on top of all of that, buying gold with starter packs to directly influence how much gear i can upgrade, thereby increasing my stats/ipwr and the gear drops for me. 

Loot Drops: DD1: When a piece of gear dropped, you immediately know if its an upgrade or not. Also, you know which games you have to play to get gear upgrades and increase to the next level or difficulty. 

DD2: I have no rational explanation or theory as to why they broke what was already perfect. My only hypothesis is that they valued getting rid of leechers jumping into C7 over having a game with a half-decent loot system. The claim to want you to have a hero that can build and DPS via the ascension system to cut down on how many characters you have, while simultaneously having you require a useless dummy toon that just equips the highest ipwr (not necessarily the best) gear. 


Anyone else feel the same way? Or am i just a creature of habit wanting to play revamped DD1? 


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I feel quite the same...But DD2 should not be a "revamped DD1". Nothing works the same way twice. Dungeon Defenders 2 should feel like a evolved version of DD1. The core mechanics that made DD1 what it is still have to be there, but DD2 have to be a lot more than just that. Well, we all have to wait a couple more years and we can better see the difference as I feel that now is too early to come to a conclusion.

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I just feel like they should have taken DD1 and not fixed what wasn't broken. I didn't want DD1 with a DD2 sticker on it, but i expected similar levels of game play and progression, while adding new heroes, maps, game modes, pets and overall, just more content. 

I am a little neurotic in the sense that when i put a game down, its down for good. So i guess that's why i personally, was hoping for a playable launch that had content for the foreseeable future. I think i have logged less than fifteen hours so far and am halfway through the chaos trials with no desire to try and max out ascension levels (if that's even possible). I would need to have a goal/reason to want to max out ascension levels, like content that truly requires you to be level 500 without cheesing the game with the current only viable meta. 

@Exe Sandbox quote:

I feel quite the same...But DD2 should not be a "revamped DD1". Nothing works the same way twice. Dungeon Defenders 2 should feel like a evolved version of DD1. The core mechanics that made DD1 what it is still have to be there, but DD2 have to be a lot more than just that. Well, we all have to wait a couple more years and we can better see the difference as I feel that now is too early to come to a conclusion.


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@Derek564 quote:

Free To Play: DD1: Free to play. Option to purchase new maps and things that are not necessary to game play. 

DD2: Pay to win. DD2 promised not to run on a pay to win structure, but if i can buy the best pet in the game (still practically useless against anything other than bosses) and all of the shards that my heart desires (aside from C7 shards), while purchasing more heroes that may be the current meta and on top of all of that, buying gold with starter packs to directly influence how much gear i can upgrade, thereby increasing my stats/ipwr and the gear drops for me. 

Isn't it the opposite? In DD1 the Summoner and EV2 are so important for playing in higher difficulties. And you have to pay real money to buy these heroes. But in DD2 everything you need for progression can be obtained in-game without paying. Long playing time and/or good luck may be needed though.

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To me DD2 just a game I play for a  couple days when a new patch is out then drop it till next patch. No real end game to bother playing right now for me.  Just gotta be patient and wait till fall and see what they come up with.

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Ok, I'm with you. DD2 is a fun game, but DD1 with some new maps/enemies/modes and DD2 graphics would have been mindblowing. Hopefully DD2 will branch out as time goes on, but yea, DD1 will always be one of my favorite games of all time...on any platform.

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Was dd1 really  as good as people make it out to be? back when I played it it sure had it own flaws almost on par with dd2 now but I guess they fixed those as time went on.

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Sure it had flaws. Back when 6 hours of endless mode was needed to finally get to the uber gear!

But the way it was set up, there was always something different that you could do. It wasn't nearly as linear. Again, I am sure DD2 has other things in store for us in the future.

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@mindlessdefender quote:

To me DD2 just a game I play for a  couple days when a new patch is out then drop it till next patch. No real end game to bother playing right now for me.  Just gotta be patient and wait till fall and see what they come up with.

And that's what we're working on!

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@mindlessdefender quote:

To me DD2 just a game I play for a  couple days when a new patch is out then drop it till next patch. No real end game to bother playing right now for me.  Just gotta be patient and wait till fall and see what they come up with.

I'm playing very casually myself at the moment, but even at the current rate i'm at, i will have no further incentive to play by August. For me personally, the enjoyment i get from games with RPG elements are the min-maxing and intense customization. Everything that has been implemented lately is the polar opposite of those core values. One of the best parts about DD1 was that i had a Squire with the best walls that he could possibly have with his token Giraffe on a treadmill stat-stick pet. Then, my DPS huntress had an AK-47 weapon with over 160 upgrade levels and maxed out attack power(that i farmed for weeks). As a recovering WoW addict, the thing that kept me going back to that game was that you could set yourself apart from everyone else by the endless ability to keep farming the best gear. Once you have the best gear, there was still content to run that was engaging, or at least fun. With DD2, there is only so many things you can possibly do, which is no fault of the game creators, who i think have done a great job. This style of game requires playing the same content over and over to farm new gear, as its a tower defense with RPG elements. But that's just it, there is nothing to farm (right now, at least). There is no specific *best in slot* gear that i am trying to obtain. Its just the same old legendaries with a capped stat value. Once you hit that wall, there is nothing else to do. I thought the passives were great on gear, as that gave you something to farm and work towards, back when i tested in pre-alpha. But now, you can just use real money to buy the perfect passives in the form of shards. There's nothing left to the imagination anymore. I know its a cartooney-game, but i think the vast majority of your player base is teenagers-adults nostalgic from DD1 and people 14 and older don't want a cookie-cutter RPG, we want to be able to customize our heroes. I understand you needed to monetize this game and it was noble to have it free for those who wouldn't be able to purchase it otherwise, but i personally would have rather forked over the $30 than be faced with micro transactions to replace farming. 

And yes, DD1 had its flaws, like modded magical unicorn pets worth 2 billion dollars and weapons with infinite damage making their way into many public games, but it was still amazing if you played the game legit. I don't know, maybe i'm just a sucker for trying to make the "best" character i can in a game and not being forced down the same road as the other players. 


@iamisom quote:


@mindlessdefender quote:

To me DD2 just a game I play for a  couple days when a new patch is out then drop it till next patch. No real end game to bother playing right now for me.  Just gotta be patient and wait till fall and see what they come up with.

And that's what we're working on!

[[4370,users]] One more thing that i think would be great is if pets leveled with you or were substantially revamped to make a difference like they did in DD1. It takes forever to level up pets these days. With the amount of pet food i have stockpiled, you would think i could have five elder pets by now, but i actually just have one with 18 affection levels with enough evolution mats and food to level up at least seven or eight more pets. It seems that you made the leveling exponentially slower while dramatically lowering the usefulness of the pet itself. I think DD1 had a good balance where the pet stats were slightly greater than a separate piece of gear. I understand that would be a difficult balance now, with each tower having their own totem slot, but there should be some kind of feature where a pets stats vary with ascension level or the elder stats are greatly increased to match chaos 7. For what its worth, that's my two cents. Farming pets, gear and unique weapons with the occasional DLC with new maps, fresh bosses and new heroes were what kept me coming back in DD1. But then again, that may just be my little opinion that isn't share by others.

Either way, both games are great and its appreciated that you guys are working so hard on them. 

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Nope, not just your opinion. DD1 always had something DIFFERENT you could be farming. But a lot of that was because you had all the maps open, and several different difficulties to select for each map (to farm a specific item). Maybe DD2 is heading in that direction. It does make it rather difficult to do with the removal of builder gear/dps gear setups, but there is still some potential there.

I couldn't agree more about the pets. The current setup is dreadfully slow, severely limited in what pets can do, and just not as useful. Being without a pet would change nothing in DD2 where as DD1 pets often were critical to completing certain maps!

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Exactly, Sean. Pets were vital and as important, if not more, than any other piece of gear (excluding the weapon). Now, its just a floating 2% increase in stats with an ability that can be somewhat useful. I want a variety of pets and varying degrees of usefulness, like in DD1. Getting killed by assassins? Get that melee pet with 1000 knockback that would protect your six. Want a robot that shoots lasers out of its eyes purely because its awesome? Go for it. Stat stick pet for your builder? Donkey on a treadmill. 

Very hopeful that they do implement these requested changes in the future, but i hope its not too late. Survival/Onslaught hasn't even been implemented into the Xbox One version yet, so they definitely haven't rolled out everything they have yet, but i don't know what the hold up is. Unique survival (rewards weapons/pets/medals) would definitely be something that would give me hope. Last time i played onslaught, the difficulty went up to NM4, so i'm guessing the delayed release of onslaught is due to balancing for the current chaos trials. 

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Free To Play: DD1: Free to play. Option to purchase new maps and things that are not necessary to game play. 

DD2: Pay to win. DD2 promised not to run on a pay to win structure, but if i can buy the best pet in the game (still practically useless against anything other than bosses) and all of the shards that my heart desires (aside from C7 shards), while purchasing more heroes that may be the current meta and on top of all of that, buying gold with starter packs to directly influence how much gear i can upgrade, thereby increasing my stats/ipwr and the gear drops for me. 

What are you even, I can't what. 

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I must admit DD1 was stuffed with plenty of game mode , it's not really the case in DD2 (after campaign you go in trials and it's all :/) , i really hope some game mode from DD1 come in DD2 (like the endless mode , which is maybe the most asked from the community) , as well as be able to customise a game (like in DD1 too).

Tbh , i've 242 hours on DD1 and i haven't done everything (i don't even know everything) ,and  i've 98 hours on DD2 and i've the feeling to know the entire game (hopeffully it's only the 1.0 version of DD2 so i dare hope it will change in the futur (and like staff seem read and answer to the commynity i havent any doubt about that ^^)).

Also have only "normal" and "hard mode" is too few IMO , i wich i can re-made the campaign in nightmare mode for example , it should be fun.

And like my friend said , staff should open survey for know opinions of the community (about anything in game), like idk , maybe 1 once per week ? , it should greatly help for know what we want and what we want see changed in the futur.



Thx if you read me (but dont worry , even if DD1 miss me , i also like many feature in DD2 who wasn't in DD1 !).

Sorry for my english if it's strange.

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[[23,users]] ??? In DD1, you could purchase new maps via DLC, which you know already. By "not necessary", i mean you can play the game without purchasing this DLC, IE: free to play.  This is an acceptable purchase in a game that campaigns on free to play, as well as aesthetic accessories and what not. Even quality of life purchases, i personally think are acceptable, such as extra hero slots, more bags etc. 


The rest seems pretty self explanatory, but pay to win is defined as buying an advantage in a game with real money, rather than in game currency that you can earn via game play. So you can buy gems which will allow you to buy shard packs, which gives you a direct advantage over somebody grinding out C1 with campaign shards compared to the person who has spent $100 buying crystals and opened 5 shard packs from each chaos trial (with the exception of C7). Gold and defender medals are the only way to upgrade gear, and with the way your loot system works, upgraded gear=better gear drops, which means faster progression. So having several buying options - Gemtacular bundle, standard, heroic and deluxe, those all grant you with a substantial amount of gold and a pet. The pet can be farmed, as well as the gold, but its still a direct advantage in the game. Just like Clash of Clans, you can wait for the building to finish in 24 hours, or you can pay real money=DD2 - Farm a million gold over several weeks or spend $100 for the heroic bundle!

I mean, am i crazy? I have played several games that offer in app purchases and this appears to be exactly the same. Its different in a sense, because somebody else spending $200 on this game isn't going to negatively affect my game play or cheat me out of my chance to win as it might in other games that offer IAP, but own the fact that you guys are doing what 90% of companies do nowadays, which is sell a quarter of the game up front (free, in this case), then sell them the other 75% as DLC and offer IAP so that the whales of the world will spend hundreds of dollars each, helping to keep this game running smoothly and you guys creating content. There's no shame in trying to make money, people don't offer products or services for free. 

What are you even, I can't what. 


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@Derek564 quote:

javahawk ??? In DD1, you could purchase new maps via DLC, which you know already. By "not necessary", i mean you can play the game without purchasing this DLC, IE: free to play.  This is an acceptable purchase in a game that campaigns on free to play, as well as aesthetic accessories and what not. Even quality of life purchases, i personally think are acceptable, such as extra hero slots, more bags etc. 



As far as I see DD1 was not free to play and isn't now either. You still have to purchase the base game if you want to play it without dlc.

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Oh, i may be mistaken on that, its been a while since i played DD1. I only remember having to buy the DLC, or then again, i may have bought it after the first DLC came out and assumed that's what i was paying for.

@Dreizehn quote:


@Derek564 quote:

javahawk ??? In DD1, you could purchase new maps via DLC, which you know already. By "not necessary", i mean you can play the game without purchasing this DLC, IE: free to play.  This is an acceptable purchase in a game that campaigns on free to play, as well as aesthetic accessories and what not. Even quality of life purchases, i personally think are acceptable, such as extra hero slots, more bags etc. 



As far as I see DD1 was not free to play and isn't now either. You still have to purchase the base game if you want to play it without dlc.


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@Derek564 quote:

Disclaimer*

Before reading *MY PERSONAL OPINION* of DD2, please read the following statements before posting butthurt comments and telling me: to go find a new game, if you hate it so much/it works as designed/its a work in progress/you aren't building it right etc.

-I know that not every piece of content is out yet, such as survival, more maps and characters to come etc. 

-I understand how the loot system works, its just idiotic.

-I am progressing really fast, given the fact that i only get to play a few hours once or twice a week. 

-I am using a combination of the meta and my own strategies to clear content. 

-I am using a dummy toon to equip all of the newest, presumably highest ipwr gear.

-I still enjoy DD2, this is just the list of things that i feel would make it that much better (mostly just tidbits from their original creation-DD1).

-I tested this since the beginning and have given them over $100 in exchange for pre-alpha access and purchasing a starter pack for Xbox One upon release. In no way, shape or form am i trying to convince anyone to quit DD2 or anything silly like that. I just want this game to live up to the reputation of DD1, or at least come close. 


DD1 had replay value in many ways that i don't think DD2 has.

Pets: DD1: Must have. Worth doing 15 waves of survival and killing tens of thousands of enemies to get a chance at a good pet that has the right stats and a ton of upgrade levels.

DD2: Maybe get a pet if you think it looks cool, not necessary though. 

Gear: DD1: Progression seemed endless and there was always a special map to farm a certain weapon that we desired. Even after getting the weapon you wanted, you may have gotten it with sub-optimal upgrade levels, so its worth it to farm a better one with 150+ upgrade levels. 

DD2: Play the cookie-cutter 1-7 chaos trials to get gear. Upgrade levels are always the same, so it doesn't matter. Also, if you don't feel like playing the game, buy your weapon of choice at the wayfarer shop. 

Strategy: DD1: Varies from person to person and differs on every map. 

DD2: Most Chaos Trials = Weapon Manufacturer and Sky Guard Towers or try a different game. 

Team Play: DD1: Split screen and online COOP were great. Always played with friends and was rewarded with more gear for doing so.

DD2: Pitched split screen, but i have tried it every day since launch and it hasn't worked once yet. (On Xbox One)

Stat Allocation and Customization: DD1: Got the privilege of placing all of my stat points in what i wanted them to be in. 

DD2: No stat allocation until level 50. At level 50, you get ascension levels which you get to pick the stat you want 1/3rd of the time. Seems like a lazy band-aid for the lack of progression in this game. I don't know about you guys, but i don't get much satisfaction from those ascension levels and allocated that one stat point into the category i want to every three levels. 

Free To Play: DD1: Free to play. Option to purchase new maps and things that are not necessary to game play. 

DD2: Pay to win. DD2 promised not to run on a pay to win structure, but if i can buy the best pet in the game (still practically useless against anything other than bosses) and all of the shards that my heart desires (aside from C7 shards), while purchasing more heroes that may be the current meta and on top of all of that, buying gold with starter packs to directly influence how much gear i can upgrade, thereby increasing my stats/ipwr and the gear drops for me. 

Loot Drops: DD1: When a piece of gear dropped, you immediately know if its an upgrade or not. Also, you know which games you have to play to get gear upgrades and increase to the next level or difficulty. 

DD2: I have no rational explanation or theory as to why they broke what was already perfect. My only hypothesis is that they valued getting rid of leechers jumping into C7 over having a game with a half-decent loot system. The claim to want you to have a hero that can build and DPS via the ascension system to cut down on how many characters you have, while simultaneously having you require a useless dummy toon that just equips the highest ipwr (not necessarily the best) gear. 


Anyone else feel the same way? Or am i just a creature of habit wanting to play revamped DD1? 


Despite your disclaimer it really doesn't seem like you're fully taking into account that DD1 is an old game that had gone through several iterations.  DD2 may feel that way due to the fact that every game company basically does a paid beta for fifty or sixty decades, but officially the game has only been out for less than a month so you're going to need to dial back your expectations a bit.

I imagine pets are a work in progress.  DD1 pets were not as fleshed out in the beginning as they were towards the end.  I agree that the current pet system in DD2 is very minimal and needs to be improved greatly.  I also don't think it should be a top priority for them.

This sort of ties in to your last point, but personally I prefer less RNG in my games as opposed to more.  I don't think grinding for an identical item just because it has +3 extra upgrade levels if compelling gameplay for an endgame Hero/Tower Defense game.  So while I'm going to disagree here this is a preference option that I don't think is worth discussing.  I do think you also gloss over the C1-C7 grind, but I'll get back to that later.

That being said a critique of something related to gear is that the current shard system is awful, but again we may not agree on this because it seems you prefer RNG.  Personally I would have preferred a dusting/currency system so we could do something with our useless shards.  It's especially a gut punch for budget/F2P players to get a shard for a hero you do not currently own.

I don't think the game is as bland as you claim, but I will concede that it's pretty stale and needs quite a bit of balancing.  This has been addressed and it seems to be a top priority for them as recently as today at 9 something AM PST.  Many games are a constant balancing work in progress and this game is no different.

I cannot comment on the console front as I play on PC, but I'm sorry for any issues you might have.  While I wish there was cross platform play the truth is that consoles are almost always behind (I'm an avid Payday 2 player as an example) and as a result issues like the split screen and even just the general connectivity problems will tend to plague consoles for longer.  If at all possible I'd encourage anyone to play on PC.  It's not a solve or a fix or an excuse.  Just a piece of advice.

The grind to 50 is so short I don't think it's particularly relevant.  I also think new players have information overload and delaying stats until you are 50/paragon'd is fine to me.  I agree that the Ascension system could use some work though.  They don't feel very satisfying to me either.  That said DD1 stats weren't particularly interesting either.  Early on speed was pretty vital and a very short time into the game you could cap it without issue.  DD2 is also slowly attempting to solve the builder/hero DPS issue (Offense/Defense Acensions are a good start, but the Utility tree is questionable in it's current state since it has stats for both).  DD1 forced the choice there.  Perhaps that was something you preferred, but I for one would prefer the hybrid option.  Having a dedicated builder only amounts to more character swapping for min maxers so it only creates a hassle at the high end and hurts low end/casual players.

I'm going to address the last point about loot before the F2P issue due to length.  Your point about Ipwr progression is one that many players myself included have complained about.  I have the same suspicion you do and while I think it's good for the game overall to prevent players from simply leeching a few max level games and having BiS gear I also think they could have done a vastly better job with how they went about it.  For one thing Ipwr should be displayed so players don't have to go to great lengths to figure out which gear is considered better.

As for the more technical issues I would have definitely preferred if each account had some kind of internal tracker so that a mule character was not necessary.  I have no idea how difficult this would be for them to implement, but I'm guessing it would be a pain.  Essentially putting the burden of proof on the game to determine if a player should be earning C1 gear vs C4 gear vs C7 gear based on their waves/games completed whereas right now the burden of proof is on the player to have acquired the correct items from each of those waves/games in order to be properly vetted.  In addition to that the system is not well explained in-game and many casual players will become frustrated at such a system.  There's also the obvious point that the mule character is forced because you have to equip highest Ipwr regardless of actual use whereas in a "normal" game you should simply be equipping whatever you feel is best for your character.  From a player perspective it feels awful equipping a green over a legendary simply because the green is 1 Ipwr higher and you want to progress as quickly as possible.

For the Pay2Win point.  This is a complex subject as each person usually has a difference of opinion here.  First of all it's a pretty bad phrase because a lot of folks will confuse/conflate Pay2Win or Pay2Grind or Pay4Power etc.  I tend to rank mine in tiers.

The highest bar (or lowest bar in terms of morality I guess) are set by games that have exclusive features that can only be purchased via $$$.  No amount of in-game grinding/play will allow you to earn these features.  Furthermore these features give some kind of significant power increase to a player that is unavailable to other players who do not spend $$$.  There are many cash grab games that fit this feature.  Take pretty much anything from Perfect World as an example..

For some folks the above is the only type of Pay2Win game.

The middle tier is pretty muddy, but a lot of players would call this Pay2Skip or Pay2Grind or whatever.  Essentially this tier allows you to skip certain aspects of the game by paying real $$$.  The important distinction here is that a player with more time or perhaps even infinite time can acquire the same items or powers that you can.  Depending on the game (Neverwinter Online is a good example) the amount of in-game time necessary to acquire even 1$ worth of items might be so great that it's effectively placed in the tier I typed above, but that's where the equation gets really muddy.

There's also paying for convenience which I would argue falls into this tier, but probably at a lower level/degree.  Very often this involves things like inventory space that are generally one of the ways F2P games cash in with an almost predatory level of bag space for F2P players.  I would argue that DD2 is this type of game.  As another example the Asian versions of D3 allowed purchasing stash tabs rather than just earning them via achievements like the US versions.  In-game this is a minor bonus, but it still helps in both games because it allows you to sort items more efficiently leading to improved game time that you can spend progressing.

Paying to skip a certain aspect of a grind is definitely a power increase no matter how you want to slice it so we agree there.  What level of skip you are comfortable with is based on personal preference.  In WoW I can buy a boost to close to max level right now which would considerably cut down my grind time if I were a brand new player.  It means I can start raiding or doing M+ that much sooner which is effectively a power increase.  That's a level I'm fine with myself or other players having because it's a far cry from something like buying a Rez Scroll in NWO that allows my group to beat a boss for $$$ that we would otherwise have wiped to).  Both are paying for power, it's just the exclusivity of said power that separates the two.

I feel I should also mention that there are tiers of games that only sell vanity items.  While I don't think anyone would ever accuse those games of being Pay2Win many games often have both vanity/transmog only items in addition to Pay2Grind skips.  For example League of Legends makes most of their money off of skins and hero purchases rather than things like Boosts or Runes, but a new player could still buy their way into some power early on if they desired.  Personally, I am okay with that level of purchased power gain, but you may not be.

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If trendy knows what's good for them.

they better start pumping out new content in a hurry or it's going to be GG nn. 

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@Spectear quote:

Despite your disclaimer it really doesn't seem like you're fully taking into account that DD1 is an old game that had gone through several iterations.  DD2 may feel that way due to the fact that every game company basically does a paid beta for fifty or sixty decades, but officially the game has only been out for less than a month so you're going to need to dial back your expectations a bit.

I imagine pets are a work in progress.  DD1 pets were not as fleshed out in the beginning as they were towards the end.  I agree that the current pet system in DD2 is very minimal and needs to be improved greatly.  I also don't think it should be a top priority for them.

This sort of ties in to your last point, but personally I prefer less RNG in my games as opposed to more.  I don't think grinding for an identical item just because it has +3 extra upgrade levels if compelling gameplay for an endgame Hero/Tower Defense game.  So while I'm going to disagree here this is a preference option that I don't think is worth discussing.  I do think you also gloss over the C1-C7 grind, but I'll get back to that later.

That being said a critique of something related to gear is that the current shard system is awful, but again we may not agree on this because it seems you prefer RNG.  Personally I would have preferred a dusting/currency system so we could do something with our useless shards.  It's especially a gut punch for budget/F2P players to get a shard for a hero you do not currently own.

I don't think the game is as bland as you claim, but I will concede that it's pretty stale and needs quite a bit of balancing.  This has been addressed and it seems to be a top priority for them as recently as today at 9 something AM PST.  Many games are a constant balancing work in progress and this game is no different.

I cannot comment on the console front as I play on PC, but I'm sorry for any issues you might have.  While I wish there was cross platform play the truth is that consoles are almost always behind (I'm an avid Payday 2 player as an example) and as a result issues like the split screen and even just the general connectivity problems will tend to plague consoles for longer.  If at all possible I'd encourage anyone to play on PC.  It's not a solve or a fix or an excuse.  Just a piece of advice.

The grind to 50 is so short I don't think it's particularly relevant.  I also think new players have information overload and delaying stats until you are 50/paragon'd is fine to me.  I agree that the Ascension system could use some work though.  They don't feel very satisfying to me either.  That said DD1 stats weren't particularly interesting either.  Early on speed was pretty vital and a very short time into the game you could cap it without issue.  DD2 is also slowly attempting to solve the builder/hero DPS issue (Offense/Defense Acensions are a good start, but the Utility tree is questionable in it's current state since it has stats for both).  DD1 forced the choice there.  Perhaps that was something you preferred, but I for one would prefer the hybrid option.  Having a dedicated builder only amounts to more character swapping for min maxers so it only creates a hassle at the high end and hurts low end/casual players.

I'm going to address the last point about loot before the F2P issue due to length.  Your point about Ipwr progression is one that many players myself included have complained about.  I have the same suspicion you do and while I think it's good for the game overall to prevent players from simply leeching a few max level games and having BiS gear I also think they could have done a vastly better job with how they went about it.  For one thing Ipwr should be displayed so players don't have to go to great lengths to figure out which gear is considered better.

As for the more technical issues I would have definitely preferred if each account had some kind of internal tracker so that a mule character was not necessary.  I have no idea how difficult this would be for them to implement, but I'm guessing it would be a pain.  Essentially putting the burden of proof on the game to determine if a player should be earning C1 gear vs C4 gear vs C7 gear based on their waves/games completed whereas right now the burden of proof is on the player to have acquired the correct items from each of those waves/games in order to be properly vetted.  In addition to that the system is not well explained in-game and many casual players will become frustrated at such a system.  There's also the obvious point that the mule character is forced because you have to equip highest Ipwr regardless of actual use whereas in a "normal" game you should simply be equipping whatever you feel is best for your character.  From a player perspective it feels awful equipping a green over a legendary simply because the green is 1 Ipwr higher and you want to progress as quickly as possible.

For the Pay2Win point.  This is a complex subject as each person usually has a difference of opinion here.  First of all it's a pretty bad phrase because a lot of folks will confuse/conflate Pay2Win or Pay2Grind or Pay4Power etc.  I tend to rank mine in tiers.

The highest bar (or lowest bar in terms of morality I guess) are set by games that have exclusive features that can only be purchased via $$$.  No amount of in-game grinding/play will allow you to earn these features.  Furthermore these features give some kind of significant power increase to a player that is unavailable to other players who do not spend $$$.  There are many cash grab games that fit this feature.  Take pretty much anything from Perfect World as an example..

For some folks the above is the only type of Pay2Win game.

The middle tier is pretty muddy, but a lot of players would call this Pay2Skip or Pay2Grind or whatever.  Essentially this tier allows you to skip certain aspects of the game by paying real $$$.  The important distinction here is that a player with more time or perhaps even infinite time can acquire the same items or powers that you can.  Depending on the game (Neverwinter Online is a good example) the amount of in-game time necessary to acquire even 1$ worth of items might be so great that it's effectively placed in the tier I typed above, but that's where the equation gets really muddy.

There's also paying for convenience which I would argue falls into this tier, but probably at a lower level/degree.  Very often this involves things like inventory space that are generally one of the ways F2P games cash in with an almost predatory level of bag space for F2P players.  I would argue that DD2 is this type of game.  As another example the Asian versions of D3 allowed purchasing stash tabs rather than just earning them via achievements like the US versions.  In-game this is a minor bonus, but it still helps in both games because it allows you to sort items more efficiently leading to improved game time that you can spend progressing.

Paying to skip a certain aspect of a grind is definitely a power increase no matter how you want to slice it so we agree there.  What level of skip you are comfortable with is based on personal preference.  In WoW I can buy a boost to close to max level right now which would considerably cut down my grind time if I were a brand new player.  It means I can start raiding or doing M+ that much sooner which is effectively a power increase.  That's a level I'm fine with myself or other players having because it's a far cry from something like buying a Rez Scroll in NWO that allows my group to beat a boss for $$$ that we would otherwise have wiped to).  Both are paying for power, it's just the exclusivity of said power that separates the two.

I feel I should also mention that there are tiers of games that only sell vanity items.  While I don't think anyone would ever accuse those games of being Pay2Win many games often have both vanity/transmog only items in addition to Pay2Grind skips.  For example League of Legends makes most of their money off of skins and hero purchases rather than things like Boosts or Runes, but a new player could still buy their way into some power early on if they desired.  Personally, I am okay with that level of purchased power gain, but you may not be.

I understand that DD1 wasn't a perfect game from the get-go, nor would i expect it to be. I imagine that many people came forward with their opinions and feedback to help Trendy shape DD1 what it was when i played it, I don't know if its coming off this way, but i don't expect Trendy to snap their fingers and add several hundred hours of content, fix pets, add onslaught, solve world hunger and take a shot at world peace before dinner. This is just my honest feedback that would make the game perfect for me, and hopefully several others. So if Trendy walks away from this and uses one point that i brought up, i feel that this would be a success. The C1-C7 grind is not sustainable and there is no specific motivation to replay these after you progress, aside from a shard or two. 

As for grinding, that's what this game is all about; grinding. You are correct, though, it is a matter of opinion. I enjoy min-maxxing and being the best at what i am trying to be the best at, so limiting my options and loot drops in an RPG is counter productive to my particular taste, but that may just be me, i don't speak for everyone. I just know that when i was Mythic raiding in WoW and progressing content, i would pay the 100k gold for a 2 item level upgrade piece of gear, i would run lower content on the 2% chance i would get a titan forged piece of gear out of plain luck, which is why i loved the old weapon/armor system so much. You might get knocked on your butt with excitement when you see a legendary chest at the end then low and behold, its drops a 170 upgrade level perfect weapon for your dps hero. 

Agreed with the shard dusting, but the reason 99% of games don't allow anything like that is because A: they want you to spend money on shards OR B: they want you to grind it out, play the game more and/or spend money to help progress. 

I definitely don't think the game is bland, geared towards certain builds, 100%. My main complaint right now is i love the concept of RPG/Tower Defense combination so much and i was a major fan of DD1, impatiently waiting for DD2 for what seemed like a life time-I finally get my hands on the full release, after testing pre-alpha, but i already see the light at the end of the tunnel, ie: me clearing all the content and putting the game down forever. I am yearning for that endless play-ability that made DD1 #1 in my book. 

Yeah, the console issues threw a wrench in my whole plan. I talked DD2 up to my fiance, a non gamer, for several months. When it finally came out, i couldn't log onto the game for a week and a half upon day of release. After i could log on, i would get kicked from every single game mid-way through, or if i was lucky, at the end when i tried to return to tavern. From that point until this day, i have not been able to successfully work split-screen once and my fiance has given up on the thought of playing together. But that is just me hopeless venting, as i imagine there are bigger fish to fry at the moment and connectivity issues are not something i would blame Trendy for, as i imagine its very difficult to predict the actual traffic of the game and support all of these players. 

The loot issue would be immediately fixed with at least a display of what ipwr a piece of gear is, so that you know its better. The idea of having  dummy toon in order for you to progress is just silly. Not to mention the fact that a seemingly 500 ipwr weapon does half the dps as a 250 ipwr weapon (made up example). Every RPG is going to have a form of powerleveling/loot leeching, it comes with the title. A good step towards ending that, at least for people who don't want to help leechers, is doing what Trendy already did- add ascension level requirements, or better yet, add ipwr requirements like they did in pre-alpha. I don't know what the reasoning was for changing that, but it seemed to function, from what i saw. 

As for the pay2win subject, i agree with you that the most dastardly form of pay2win is what you described-content that cannot be obtained without cash. However, just because that is the worst form, doesn't mean that its the only form of pay2win. Agreed 100% on the quality of life purchases, such as bag space and hero slots. That to me, is the line on pay2win games, as you don't get any farther ahead in the game, you just potentially save a little time with minor inconveniences. Another point that i didn't bring up is buying heroes-completely pay2win. I don't know about you, but i have been running on empty with defender medals every day and i do all of the dailies/special missions available to me. This is solely from trying to upgrade gear to progress, as the current system is completely flawed. I can't imagine saving up enough defender medals for the dacolich/any other pet, never mind buying heroes for 10,000. So if you buy gold/pets/heroes, that not only grants you access to the cheesemaster (EV2), but it also directly frees up all of your currency to use on upgrades, thereby progressing you further etc. 

Agreed with WoW boost. The boost is essentially skipping past content to get to the current expansion. It gives you no advantage other than saving time of playing through the older content, as any other player at max level would still one-shot you. WoW has kind of gotten close to pay2win as well, actually. In Legion (last expansion), i started hardcore raiding with the top guild on my server and it became part time job, which is why i eventually quit. We had item level requirements to meet by certain dates and what not, which means you have to do everything you can to get gear or get benched. With legion, came these crazy "bind on equip" world drops that had about a 1% chance to drop, but were basically on par stat-wise with heroic raid gear and you can sell them on the auction house. That was also the expansion WoW realized people were illegally buying gold, so they decided to allow you to buy gold based on market value for $20. That was when WoW became pay2win and about the time i broke free of their hold on me. I digress...

Yeah, my stance on pay2win is that its for sleazy smart phone games that want to piss off players and make a quick buck. Whoever the first person was to create a pay2win game forever ruined gaming. I would much rather pay $60 dollars for dungeon defenders than be tempted by game-advancing micro transactions. Cosmetics are a different animal, as some people just want to make their character look amazing and pay an extra $5 to do so. More power to them, but my personal opinion on pay2win/micro transactions other than cosmetic is that its a cancer on gaming. Not that my opinion will change anything on a very popular way to squeeze money out of people, but yeah..



@UNOWHO quote:

If trendy knows what's good for them.

they better start pumping out new content in a hurry or it's going to be GG nn. 

I think a great start for them would be pumping out onslaught with some map-specific rewards for completing certain milestones in onslaught, as well as golden eggs, unique weapons/pets and additional resources (gold/medals). Then, they can add in more chaos tiers to allow players to progress further and maybe add in challenge maps like in DD1 where you face all ogres or reverse the rolls and attack towers with your heroes etc. There is many directions they can go, hopefully it happens before the majority of players migrate to the next game. 

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@Derek564 quote:



I understand that DD1 wasn't a perfect game from the get-go, nor would i expect it to be. I imagine that many people came forward with their opinions and feedback to help Trendy shape DD1 what it was when i played it, I don't know if its coming off this way, but i don't expect Trendy to snap their fingers and add several hundred hours of content, fix pets, add onslaught, solve world hunger and take a shot at world peace before dinner. This is just my honest feedback that would make the game perfect for me, and hopefully several others. So if Trendy walks away from this and uses one point that i brought up, i feel that this would be a success. The C1-C7 grind is not sustainable and there is no specific motivation to replay these after you progress, aside from a shard or two. 

As for grinding, that's what this game is all about; grinding. You are correct, though, it is a matter of opinion. I enjoy min-maxxing and being the best at what i am trying to be the best at, so limiting my options and loot drops in an RPG is counter productive to my particular taste, but that may just be me, i don't speak for everyone. I just know that when i was Mythic raiding in WoW and progressing content, i would pay the 100k gold for a 2 item level upgrade piece of gear, i would run lower content on the 2% chance i would get a titan forged piece of gear out of plain luck, which is why i loved the old weapon/armor system so much. You might get knocked on your butt with excitement when you see a legendary chest at the end then low and behold, its drops a 170 upgrade level perfect weapon for your dps hero. 

Agreed with the shard dusting, but the reason 99% of games don't allow anything like that is because A: they want you to spend money on shards OR B: they want you to grind it out, play the game more and/or spend money to help progress. 

I definitely don't think the game is bland, geared towards certain builds, 100%. My main complaint right now is i love the concept of RPG/Tower Defense combination so much and i was a major fan of DD1, impatiently waiting for DD2 for what seemed like a life time-I finally get my hands on the full release, after testing pre-alpha, but i already see the light at the end of the tunnel, ie: me clearing all the content and putting the game down forever. I am yearning for that endless play-ability that made DD1 #1 in my book. 

Yeah, the console issues threw a wrench in my whole plan. I talked DD2 up to my fiance, a non gamer, for several months. When it finally came out, i couldn't log onto the game for a week and a half upon day of release. After i could log on, i would get kicked from every single game mid-way through, or if i was lucky, at the end when i tried to return to tavern. From that point until this day, i have not been able to successfully work split-screen once and my fiance has given up on the thought of playing together. But that is just me hopeless venting, as i imagine there are bigger fish to fry at the moment and connectivity issues are not something i would blame Trendy for, as i imagine its very difficult to predict the actual traffic of the game and support all of these players. 

The loot issue would be immediately fixed with at least a display of what ipwr a piece of gear is, so that you know its better. The idea of having  dummy toon in order for you to progress is just silly. Not to mention the fact that a seemingly 500 ipwr weapon does half the dps as a 250 ipwr weapon (made up example). Every RPG is going to have a form of powerleveling/loot leeching, it comes with the title. A good step towards ending that, at least for people who don't want to help leechers, is doing what Trendy already did- add ascension level requirements, or better yet, add ipwr requirements like they did in pre-alpha. I don't know what the reasoning was for changing that, but it seemed to function, from what i saw. 

As for the pay2win subject, i agree with you that the most dastardly form of pay2win is what you described-content that cannot be obtained without cash. However, just because that is the worst form, doesn't mean that its the only form of pay2win. Agreed 100% on the quality of life purchases, such as bag space and hero slots. That to me, is the line on pay2win games, as you don't get any farther ahead in the game, you just potentially save a little time with minor inconveniences. Another point that i didn't bring up is buying heroes-completely pay2win. I don't know about you, but i have been running on empty with defender medals every day and i do all of the dailies/special missions available to me. This is solely from trying to upgrade gear to progress, as the current system is completely flawed. I can't imagine saving up enough defender medals for the dacolich/any other pet, never mind buying heroes for 10,000. So if you buy gold/pets/heroes, that not only grants you access to the cheesemaster (EV2), but it also directly frees up all of your currency to use on upgrades, thereby progressing you further etc. 

Agreed with WoW boost. The boost is essentially skipping past content to get to the current expansion. It gives you no advantage other than saving time of playing through the older content, as any other player at max level would still one-shot you. WoW has kind of gotten close to pay2win as well, actually. In Legion (last expansion), i started hardcore raiding with the top guild on my server and it became part time job, which is why i eventually quit. We had item level requirements to meet by certain dates and what not, which means you have to do everything you can to get gear or get benched. With legion, came these crazy "bind on equip" world drops that had about a 1% chance to drop, but were basically on par stat-wise with heroic raid gear and you can sell them on the auction house. That was also the expansion WoW realized people were illegally buying gold, so they decided to allow you to buy gold based on market value for $20. That was when WoW became pay2win and about the time i broke free of their hold on me. I digress...

Yeah, my stance on pay2win is that its for sleazy smart phone games that want to piss off players and make a quick buck. Whoever the first person was to create a pay2win game forever ruined gaming. I would much rather pay $60 dollars for dungeon defenders than be tempted by game-advancing micro transactions. Cosmetics are a different animal, as some people just want to make their character look amazing and pay an extra $5 to do so. More power to them, but my personal opinion on pay2win/micro transactions other than cosmetic is that its a cancer on gaming. Not that my opinion will change anything on a very popular way to squeeze money out of people, but yeah..

Your first point is fair.  I to hope that at least some of the criticism and suggestions on here are taken into consideration.  I believe they are and it's obvious several of them very actively read the forums despite the fact that it would probably drive me completely insane after a few days.

The min maxing point is about how you want to go about your gear acquisition.  I offered someone in my LFG a very large sum just to get the 900 Arcano that dropped for him.  I would always pay 100k for a small upgrade (I even ran GDKP back in the day), but that doesn't mean I want heavy RNG in my games.  Gold in WoW is trivial to acquire for a veteran player, but even if it wasn't the point is that you can grind it out and have something to show for it at the end of the day.  Every single gold is an incremental gain towards your eventual goal of a 930 BoE Belt or whatever.

To your other point this is why I don't mind that there are BoE world drops or even that you can sell Mythic EN/NH/ToS BoE's on the AH.  In a way it is paying for power and now that you don't even need to use third party channels to purchase WoW gold you can pretty much compare that exactly to what TE has done with DD2.  You pay for power, but it's not power that is unattainable by a college kid with a load of free time and 0$ to their name.

I'm glad you brought up the hero thing though.  I didn't spend any of my medals on upgrades or shard packs (didn't buy a single one even after a week of farming for a Deadly Strikes and the Attack Speed one).  I've only purchased the EV2 and Dragolich so far, but I'm also halfway to my next hero (haven't decided on what yet).  I've been playing again for about 2 weeks.  Prior to that I had not played in 2 years so I didn't have any medals banked when the game was officially released.  Just a few heroes at 50 with gear from when Betsy was the most difficult boss.

Again, that just means that if I paid money into the game I would effectively have more gold.  I did spend some gold towards the end of C7 just to speed up my gear acquisition and I also upgraded a middle legendary medallion so 14k damage in order to make the jump from C6-C7.  Otherwise I didn't spend any gold and it certainly would have been easier/faster/more powerful if I had.

Overall I'm actually quite happy with the medal system.  I think the weekly could maybe be a tad harder and give a bit more medals, but that's really nitpicky.  On the whole I think the idea of dailies/weeklies and the 25 per Chaos Trial is perfectly fine (I've been told there is a daily cap on those, but it's apparently extremely high unless you play all day).  I certainly like it much better than the shard system since I gain a currency and can works towards a goal rather than being at the mercy of RNG.  They could have just said after 15 dailies you get a random new hero, but wait it can also be a duplicate of your current roster.  I doubt that would have gone over well, but part of that is also the difference between the value of the shard system compared to the value of a brand new hero.

As I said before it's what you are comfortable with on a payment scale.  You noted your own grievance with the above WRT WoW.  As I grew older I just cared less about what younger me would have viewed as the integrity of the game.  Using say Vanilla WoW as more of an example I no longer care if someone doesn't have time to farm reagents and consumables.  A lawyer working 80 hours a week would rather pay someone to farm NDB's and Tubers if he could do so and spend what little free time raiding instead of grinding.  I also don't feel anymore skilled for having oodles of free time to farm gold simply because I have no children and my wife and I play an excessive amount of video games.

The gray area in my previous post is a very important scale for me, but I believe it will be different for each player.

Finally, while I agree with your point about a 60$ box game that's probably never going to happen again.  The F2P model vastly outweighs the old box pricing both in terms of getting new players interested while also milking your whales much harder than you ever would with just a 60$ entry fee.  I just don't blame TE or any company for doing that now because it's either that or no game at all these days.  You are entitled of course to your stance, but I think you would find it very hard indeed to find an RPG game that doesn't have these issues now.  RPG games will by their very nature require grinding and if the company doesn't offer a solution directly at least some of the playerbase will look for other ways.

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That's the thing, i'm not complaining about the grind being too tough, i am commenting on just the opposite. I feel everything can be bought/easily ran through without the grind that RPG's should maintain. Also, the min-maxing isn't just about gear acquisition, the primary complain of mine is getting no stat points to allocate from levels 1-50, and once you hit level 50, you get the disappointment of the ascension system which forces you to equally distribute stat points, rather than focusing on the ones you actually want for that particular hero. 

Unfortunately, you are right about where many games are heading, which i understand from their perspective. Milking the whales while offering free to play versions for everyone else is great for the developers and free2play folks, but not so much for the whales. As i said before, i don't blame Trendy at all for doing this, they are a business trying to make money. I just hate the direction video games are heading. Maybe i'm just salty about video games and their predatory money sink designs. Few good games these days are one time purchases anymore, they want to get their fangs in you for the long haul by getting you with micro-transactions and seemingly great deals on season passes for content they should have released upon launch of the original game. 

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The truly sad part about it is that none of these borderline P2W shenanigans would be necessary If they just had some long term vision.

People will gladly give you their money if you just provide constant progress and variation.

  

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I can really only say this; DD1 at release did not have everything it does now.  It took time and through several releases.  Am certain, over time, we can easily expect to receive the same fleshed out content giving us a great variety of activities.

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DD1 had variety at the start that DD2 does not. If for nothing else, because we needed MORE gear in DD1 to be effective.

1. Pets were useful in DD1, and many hours were spent delving into that aspect of the game. In DD2, they're a footnote...at best. Except for a couple of abilities, they offer zero utility or DPS.

2. You needed DPS Gear AND tower building gear. In DD2, you literally need RNG to hand you a decent relic for your Flame Aura or Weapon Manufacturer, and you are good to go.

3. DD1 offered difficulty levels on EVERY map. Even before the cool gimmick maps, we had multiple difficulty levels AND challenges for every map. DD2 offers C7, one of a few maps chosen randomly.

4. The loot system is terrible. Seriously. The fact that multiple page long guides have been written about how to progress shows you that some serious love is needed. Or an Item Power Level stat, perhaps? Put a stop to the Alt+Tab spreadsheets please!

DD2 has ridiculous potential. Trendy just has to get some content/variety into place before the playerbase moves on. Fingers crossed.

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