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LineDrill

Cheap healing dulls player's skill

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   When i read the last survey (defining player skill) i think this game's healing system.Because of being able to easily heal yourself this game does not punish players enough for being careless.For example;

  You play huntress and have 20000 hp and you plunge into kobolts and take 15000 damage.you can heal yourself at full hp in 5 seconds for free and you can do it again.Or place healing fountain with abyss lord you can heal yourself forever for free.

I have an example balance for healing system.

  • Respawn time increase 5 seconds each time you die.(reset at and of wave)
  • Pet abilities cooldown does not refresh when you die.
  • Heal self have 10 sec cooldown and cost 10 mana per second(for EV2 generate 15 heat per second)
  • As Abyss lord casting abyss fountain open healing fountain .This cost 15 mana each second.casting second time closes fountain(can work like dryad's blessing)
  • Serpent coil's bubbles healing you for %300 defense power not %60 of your total hp.(in c7 you can easily have 20k defense power medalion this means 60k heal and you can increase this heal with shards.)
  • Submerge/Emerge healing cost 10 molten power each second.(If lavamancer has full hp this skill cost nothing.)
  • Vroom Broom cost 10 broom power each second.(If Gunwitch has full hp this skill cost nothing.)
    I think vroom broom and submerge/emerge has cooldown too but it will become a little bit anti-fun change. This way people can play as healer in this game and defining player's skill is much more possible.

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tbh dd2 "skill" is more about knowledge then anything else, the more I think about this the more its really obvious to me. 

To me this is a game of skill: 


arguably one of the best skill games out their other then maybe SC1 and SC2.

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@Zimmermann quote:

tbh dd2 "skill" is more about knowledge then anything else, the more I think about this the more its really obvious to me. 

To me this is a game of skill: 


arguably one of the best skill games out their other then maybe SC1 and SC2.

of course 'knowledge' is the most important thing to define player skill in dd2.When i see this questions;

6. The less a player's heroes die during all waves of a map, the more skill he/she has.

7. The less damage a player's heroes take from enemies, the more skill he/she has.

i think this kind of system is more useful to answer these question.

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@Zimmermann quote:

tbh dd2 "skill" is more about knowledge

All skill is realistically "knowledge". You cannot really perform what you do not know exists or works (well, sometimes seemingly impossible things happen due to crazy luck - but that's kinda different, it's not intentional).

What's considered high skill level gameplay for most games is just a combination of experience and knowledge. This is why in general playtime relates pretty heavily to how good someone is - they have more experience and are more aware and knowledgeable about what could/will happen. 

With that aside, DD2 is not really a very "skilled" game (or at least the skill ceiling is incredibly low) - we're effectively just playing against dumb, straight line walking AI after all.



@LineDrill quote:

6. The less a player's heroes die during all waves of a map, the more skill he/she has.

7. The less damage a player's heroes take from enemies, the more skill he/she has.


So what you're saying is someone that sits behind their wall as a ranged hero is more skilled than someone that's playing a melee hero. 

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One life per combat wave is the way any skilful player would want it.

The reward being 5% buff to loot, both quantity and quality.

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I get your point but discussing the power of healing to me as an end-game player feels wrong because of our gear relative to the content we have. I rarely ever bother with heals because I tend to live until wave completed which fully heals you. The only times I take serious damage / die is from Siege Roller missiles and Ogre farts if I'm particularly reckless or lag infested.

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@Fozzie quote:

One life per combat wave is the way any skilful player would want it.

The reward being 5% buff to loot, both quantity and quality.

I would agree only if this is something that can be enabled/disabled(which I think is what you mean) otherwise progression would be a pain.

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@Cuddles quote:


@Zimmermann quote:

tbh dd2 "skill" is more about knowledge

All skill is realistically "knowledge". You cannot really perform what you do not know exists or works (well, sometimes seemingly impossible things happen due to crazy luck - but that's kinda different, it's not intentional).

What's considered high skill level gameplay for most games is just a combination of experience and knowledge. This is why in general playtime relates pretty heavily to how good someone is - they have more experience and are more aware and knowledgeable about what could/will happen. 

With that aside, DD2 is not really a very "skilled" game (or at least the skill ceiling is incredibly low) - we're effectively just playing against dumb, straight line walking AI after all.



@LineDrill quote:

6. The less a player's heroes die during all waves of a map, the more skill he/she has.

7. The less damage a player's heroes take from enemies, the more skill he/she has.


So what you're saying is someone that sits behind their wall as a ranged hero is more skilled than someone that's playing a melee hero. 

thats survey's questions. i m not try to say something like that.I say with current healh system player can act carelessly without a high cost.

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Thats how envision DD2 Skills too.

To win without killing any goblins, gobu. By simple holding out without killing until all enemys are despawnt.

The less you kill and still win, the better skilled you are, gobu.

Emoji_Goblin.pngEmoji_GobHuntress.pngEmoji_Kobalt.png~(don't kill us, gobu!)

@whaaaah quote:

..




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@LineDrill quote:

   When i read the last survey (defining player skill) i think this game's healing system.Because of being able to easily heal yourself this game does not punish players enough for being careless.For example;

  You play huntress and have 20000 hp and you plunge into kobolts and take 15000 damage.you can heal yourself at full hp in 5 seconds for free and you can do it again.Or place healing fountain with abyss lord you can heal yourself forever for free.

I have an example balance for healing system.

  • Respawn time increase 5 seconds each time you die.(reset at and of wave)
  • Pet abilities cooldown does not refresh when you die.
  • Heal self have 10 sec cooldown and cost 10 mana per second(for EV2 generate 15 heat per second)
  • As Abyss lord casting abyss fountain open healing fountain .This cost 15 mana each second.casting second time closes fountain(can work like dryad's blessing)
  • Serpent coil's bubbles healing you for %300 defense power not %60 of your total hp.(in c7 you can easily have 20k defense power medalion this means 60k heal and you can increase this heal with shards.)
  • Submerge/Emerge healing cost 10 molten power each second.(If lavamancer has full hp this skill cost nothing.)
  • Vroom Broom cost 10 broom power each second.(If Gunwitch has full hp this skill cost nothing.)
    I think vroom broom and submerge/emerge has cooldown too but it will become a little bit anti-fun change. This way people can play as healer in this game and defining player's skill is much more possible.

you must be a beast to only take 15k hp on c7. I'm barely on c3-4 and I often die playing a dryad because the bombers do at least 20k hp on me and my hp is around 33k. 5 seconds is a lot to sit on the sideline if your towers aren't that good. I die at least a few times per match even with the dryad tree healing me and healing myself with mushrooms.

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@super_slayan quote:

you must be a beast to only take 15k hp on c7. I'm barely on c3-4 and I often die playing a dryad because the bombers do at least 20k hp on me and my hp is around 33k. 5 seconds is a lot to sit on the sideline if your towers aren't that good. I die at least a few times per match even with the dryad tree healing me and healing myself with mushrooms.

You play huntress and have 20000 hp and you plunge into kobolts and take 15000 damage

i say that for example( numbers are just random) ,of course kobolts dont deal 15k in c7. and having 20k hp in c7 is suicide too

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https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/853845996710439524/04B8A9695017F4C72895CBED73B6438754D84765/

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/853845996710437915/E8CA14AE80D1C9D4EC55C21A2827F3B565AB773E/


i will make you proud Emoji_Goblin.pngEmoji_GobHuntress.pngEmoji_Kobalt.png

(flyers are not goblins gobu)

@dreamanime quote:

Thats how envision DD2 Skills too.

To win without killing any goblins, gobu. By simple holding out without killing until all enemys are despawnt.

The less you kill and still win, the better skilled you are, gobu.

Emoji_Goblin.pngEmoji_GobHuntress.pngEmoji_Kobalt.png~(don't kill us, gobu!)

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Making the respawn time after each death longer until the wave ends sounds pretty terrible. As someone that very recently capped out on gear in C4 and went into C5, my first few runs were an absolute nightmare, largely in part to the fact that at points there was literally nothing I could do to survive when 4+ assassins jumped on my face. 

If the respawn timer went up by 5 seconds every death, my early runs would have resulted in a 30+ second respawn timer, which would guaranteed give even the weakest enemy time to kill all my defences. That would have effectively halted the entirety of my progress. I wouldn't have been able to learn to deal with the enemies, and I would never get gear to forcibly progress.


That being beside the point though, DD2 is a skill game based on knowledge and understanding of towers and enemies. It's not an action beat-em-up. Although you have a character with abilities and attacks, it's a secondary element not a primary one.

Having played hundreds of skill games, I enjoy the fact that DD2's combat isn't heavily punishing and instead just supplements the tower defence aspect of the game.

Perhaps rather than nerfing every single characters healing abilities, suggest making a character that has much higher standards of skill required for play, such as more requirements for healing, with a bigger payoff in exchange for the added difficulty.

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Cuddles LineDrill The issue I have with talking about player skill in DD2 regarding technical ability to aim, move and jump is two fold. One thats really not taht important in DD2, while knowledge is all consuming. Two the physics and requirements for aiming, moving and jump are extremely limited in this game, unlike the example I gave.

Computer gamers when thinking of skill generally think of technical ability to shoot in FPS's for example, in other words fast twitch accurate hand eye coordination. We don't think of the insane amounts of knowledge one might need in some video games as skill, though its just as valid.

So with all that said, I think skill in dd2 is more about knowledge then technical ability, though that's hard to measure and even harder to create challenges for but not impossible (POE did it).

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dang Zimmermann you just took me way back. I was and still am in clan pF. we helped Arqon make cpma. I have not seen that video in ages. I would love to see a survival mode in DD2. beating all the maps in a chaos tier unlocks it , maybe a 20 wave run. If u die u dont respawn till the end of the wave. only manna you get is from killed mobs besides your first chest. with better loot chances every 5 waves. I just recently signed up for these forums and would love to have some serious but layed back cool people to play with . none of my pF. buddies will play it even though some of us have 1500 hours in dd1. feel free to add me on steam if you wanna play(pF.nels). I am ascension lvl 540ish with maxed out c7 gear. hopefully Trendy will be adding more content soon!

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While I wouldn't probably enjoy it myself, I think DD2 should bring back DD1 style challenge modes where they can have different rules and game dynamics.  However I recall they weren't the most popular matches on the pub servers so perhaps this style of play is only interesting to a a niche group.

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