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Noneya22

How to fix high DU cost towers

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Tower balance at the moment is probably the best it has been in the games history.  That is not to say there are not a few issues primarily with the higher DU cost towers.  Personally I think this issue is a result of the extremely low DU amounts maps have.  If we ignore DU costs being too low per map/DU costs being too high per some towers, can the higher DU cost towers be fixed by changing how they work instead of adjusting DU values?

Proposed Changes:

1. Ballista: I love the ballista, but the issue I have with it is its attack rate and how punishing one missed shot is for the towers sustained DPS.  The primary goal of the ballista over cannonball tower is to clear trash, while the cannonball tower is the god slayer.  I believe ballista per shot damage is wayyyy too high, while the attack rate is wayyyy too slow.  This one seems like an easy fix.  Greatly increase Ballista attack speed (2x,3x,4x?) but cut the attack damage in half.

2. Blaze Balloon: This one is tougher.  Blaze balloons concept is cool, but given EMP orcs, the cost cannot be justified.  Blaze balloon could regain some of it's glory if the "node" that you interact with (upgrade, repair, etc) was instead where the balloon sits in the air but even higher up, not on the ground.  Make that node un-targetable by EMP orcs.  This would allow blaze balloon to be the only aura/trap that can be placed without worry of EMP orc.  The higher cost justifies the gained safety. 

3. Earthshatter: Similar to Ballista, I would rather see the attack rate increased and damage reduced to be a better aoe/trash cleaner.

4. Volcano: Pre-trials this was my favorite tower.  I loved having 3 lavamancers and 3 volcanos.  Now they are incredibly underwhelming.  All stats are too low on them despite cost.  They are currently not an effective tower.  I would love it if they went back to non-stop spraying of balls with increased range even if it meant they halved the damage.  The volcano given price/DU cost should be a half map covering flamethrower tower (less damage than flamethrower obviously) with continuous fireballs and incredible range.  Damage does not need to be high at all.

Obelisk: I don't use this so will refrain from suggestions.

Nimbus: More range, better tracking.  Clean up the AI and it should be fine.  Another thing that I think should be added to all towers is a way to choose a priority.  In Bloonz Tower Defense you can set it so towers select (First, Last, Strong, Weak).  If nimbus (and all towers for that matter) could make this selction, I think it would make nimbus a much more useful tower.  Telling it to target the strongest monster in its range for example would be very helpful.


Or you could ignore all of the proposed changes above and increase DU limits on maps or decrease DU cost of the listed towers.


Another unrelated/somewhat related note:  The thing I miss most about Onslaught and DD1 was the ability to finally get all of my towers fully upgraded in a match.  This game will not let me scratch that itch in Trials as I am lucky to get a handful of my towers to level 3, or very few of them to max level.  More mana should drop to allow the maxing of tower upgrades.  The higher cost towers should also scale better when upgraded as a benefit of their cost.

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I think the Blaze Balloon would be amazing if instead of doing damage it would travel to a damaged tower (within radius or random) and heals it for 5% or maybe up to 18% of it's life.  One blaze balloon every 15 seconds.  Also, it would not target the most damaged tower.  One may be at 1.1m life left, out of 1.5m, the other has 400k life, and it randomly picked the one that doesn't need the healing - meaning it's useful but not OP.  The timer would need to be balanced from this quick rash idea.

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Decent. 

Once you have Ch6/7 gear, you can get the earth shatter down to 1s. So, tears fast enough for me. Ballista. Ugh this be able to as well. Or at least near 1s.


I think just reducing the DU cost for Said towers would be the simplest fix. That and maybe play with the #'s a little since the cost would be reduced....

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I think the inherited problem with high du towers is the power they need to have to be decent I.E. If I take 100du worth of defense (walls not counted) im on a pretty good way to be able to afk that lane this makes it so that the 100du tower need to be able to pretty much clear an entire lane on it self for it not to be garbage but if it is able to clear a lane by it self why would I build anything else than one of these in each lane?

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I love the feedback! I've sent this to our design team. We're working on some balance changes for high DU towers, especially the Obelisk. The Obelisk needs some major lovin'.

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I love Ballista. No need to change it.

@C7 w/Splody, +Piercing, Deadly Strikes + Oil Geyser = FTW (2+ mil dps)


Same with Volcano. No need to change. Love it.

@C7 w/Deadly Strikes, +speed, +range gambit +Oil Geyser (and Balllista) = FTW (1+ mil DPS entire map!)

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We're actively working on updates to many of our high DU defenses. In our internal builds, we're currently testing a number of solutions, some of them similar to what's proposed here:

  1. Slow Rate of Fire - Most defenses that have extremely slow rates of fire (Earthshatter, Ballista) are seeing updates. They'll do less damage per hit, but fire faster. This is being done to help minimize both overkill issues (dealing useless excessive damage to a target) and to help minimize targeting failures.
  2. DU Cost - Most of our higher-DU-cost defenses have not worked out quite the way we'd hoped. We wanted to see more intelligent choice between low-cost and high-cost defenses, but what's actually happened is that the entire high-cost category is being underutilized. As a result, we're bringing down both the DU cost, and stats, of some of our higher-cost DU defenses. They'll still be on the upper range of DU cost, but in most cases, should fit into placement strategies with more versatility and with less risk of being disabled / destroyed and losing the whole lane.
  3. Obelisk - This one we're testing with some pretty massive balance changes. Functionally it's the same, but we're really trying to see what we can do to solve its usability issues.


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@Trendy Brett quote:

We're actively working on updates to many of our high DU defenses. In our internal builds, we're currently testing a number of solutions, some of them similar to what's proposed here:

  1. Slow Rate of Fire - Most defenses that have extremely slow rates of fire (Earthshatter, Ballista) are seeing updates. They'll do less damage per hit, but fire faster. This is being done to help minimize both overkill issues (dealing useless excessive damage to a target) and to help minimize targeting failures.
  2. DU Cost - Most of our higher-DU-cost defenses have not worked out quite the way we'd hoped. We wanted to see more intelligent choice between low-cost and high-cost defenses, but what's actually happened is that the entire high-cost category is being underutilized. As a result, we're bringing down both the DU cost, and stats, of some of our higher-cost DU defenses. They'll still be on the upper range of DU cost, but in most cases, should fit into placement strategies with more versatility and with less risk of being disabled / destroyed and losing the whole lane.
  3. Obelisk - This one we're testing with some pretty massive balance changes. Functionally it's the same, but we're really trying to see what we can do to solve its usability issues.


This is great news! I love the expensive towers, I use them a lot, but only because I don´t use walls, so I can afford the extra DU. Hopefully we´ll see them in public builds after you´re finished tweaking. 

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Obelisk is a pretty nice tower to play around once you have already mastered a map.

Like mentioned, unfortunately is really expensive to build and to get all the upgrade benefits is has to offer.

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@Trendy Brett quote:DU Cost - Most of our higher-DU-cost defenses have not worked out quite the way we'd hoped. We wanted to see more intelligent choice between low-cost and high-cost defenses, but what's actually happened is that the entire high-cost category is being underutilized. As a result, we're bringing down both the DU cost, and stats, of some of our higher-cost DU defenses. They'll still be on the upper range of DU cost, but in most cases, should fit into placement strategies with more versatility and with less risk of being disabled / destroyed and losing the whole lane.

That was the goal? Well, to take the tightest DU map for an example and to put it way over to my side of the argument, assault on throne room has six wide lanes and only 1100 DU. That's 180 DU per lane. Put in the 2 required walls and you get 120 DU. No one would use 80 DU of that for a very slow firing tower leaving 40 DU for CC no matter how powerful it was (well unless it cleared the whole lane with each shot).

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@Ubara-tutu quote:


@Trendy Brett quote:DU Cost - Most of our higher-DU-cost defenses have not worked out quite the way we'd hoped. We wanted to see more intelligent choice between low-cost and high-cost defenses, but what's actually happened is that the entire high-cost category is being underutilized. As a result, we're bringing down both the DU cost, and stats, of some of our higher-cost DU defenses. They'll still be on the upper range of DU cost, but in most cases, should fit into placement strategies with more versatility and with less risk of being disabled / destroyed and losing the whole lane.

That was the goal? Well, to take the tightest DU map for an example and to put it way over to my side of the argument, assault on throne room has six wide lanes and only 1100 DU. That's 180 DU per lane. Put in the 2 required walls and you get 120 DU. No one would use 80 DU of that for a very slow firing tower leaving 40 DU for CC no matter how powerful it was (well unless it cleared the whole lane with each shot).

If you do your defenses right, it only has 4 lanes.  

Not that this changes anything with high DU defenses. I've never found them to be efficient no matter where/how I placed them.  Sure you can win with them when you're overpowered, but if you're just breaking into a chaos or doing a c7 public match with the old enemy multiplier system, good luck with any build that uses Ballista/Blaze Balloon/Volcano etc :) 

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@Trendy Brett quote:

We're actively working on updates to many of our high DU defenses. In our internal builds, we're currently testing a number of solutions, some of them similar to what's proposed here:

  1. Slow Rate of Fire - Most defenses that have extremely slow rates of fire (Earthshatter, Ballista) are seeing updates. They'll do less damage per hit, but fire faster. This is being done to help minimize both overkill issues (dealing useless excessive damage to a target) and to help minimize targeting failures.
  2. DU Cost - Most of our higher-DU-cost defenses have not worked out quite the way we'd hoped. We wanted to see more intelligent choice between low-cost and high-cost defenses, but what's actually happened is that the entire high-cost category is being underutilized. As a result, we're bringing down both the DU cost, and stats, of some of our higher-cost DU defenses. They'll still be on the upper range of DU cost, but in most cases, should fit into placement strategies with more versatility and with less risk of being disabled / destroyed and losing the whole lane.
  3. Obelisk - This one we're testing with some pretty massive balance changes. Functionally it's the same, but we're really trying to see what we can do to solve its usability issues.


1 and 2 should come with a warning for you guys. Nerfing their cost could be fine but nerfing their cost AND stats? Cause let me as you this. Why are we not using the high DU cost towers? It's because their dps values quite suck, they dont do enough dps to merits their costs, we could just use two of any other tower that is half the DU cost and do significantly more dps than 1 of the high du cost tower.

SO please, PLEASE, be excruciatingly careful about nerfing their stats.

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@Ubara-tutu quote:
@iAndy quote:If you do your defenses right, it only has 4 lanes. 
I want to save all sub-objectives.

Yes believe it or not there are those of us that feel like losing a sub-objective is like losing the map.

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For the towers that cost 60 and up:

Ballista - Increasing the bolt's fire rate does help, but I also believe increasing the number of penetrations or making the bolt have a bit of a larger hit box for piercing would also help in harming multiple attackers. You wouldn't need the shard to increase the number of targets it can penetrate.

Earthshatter - It is honestly fine stat wise when you hit C6/C7 because it fires every second. However, 80 DU is indeed overkill. 60 is fine.

Blaze Balloon - Increase the radius it covers and make it cost 60 DU. The fact it can only get to 1000 with Deadly Strikes and Range Gambits and auras can cover 2x that is pretty sad. This is actually what got me through Chaos 4 before the Range nerfs.

Colossus - I think it is fine the way it is. Given it is mobile and has the life and sheer force of 2 walls

Weapon Manufacturer - This sadly needs a nerfing for obvious reasons. People aren't using it for the weapon construction but for the sheer and efficient damage it can cause. Also, we should be given control over what weapons it makes instead of alternating. The Atomic Launcher is far more devastating than the Mega Death Laser, especially when fired at bosses.

Volcano - Base damage increase wouldn't hurt, but by C7, you can optimally make it fire every 1.5 seconds and the orbs already pierce walls. A range increase to near global would make it worth the 100 without the need of a Deadly Strikes. The flight speed of the standard attack and especially Megarock would help greatly.

Obelisk - I think it is honestly fine the way it is in damage and the Smite is global The flamethrower effect is also fine provided you control the movement. However, the secondary effects are completely unreliable and sometimes either fire on you 3 times in a few seconds or don't even bother firing at all. 

Nimbus - It has pathing problems and cannot acquire certain targets (eg. under the tree) and completely lost effectiveness since its attack now only harms 1 person. If you are going to keep it on single targeting, it is best to reduce the DU cost of this one to 60 and reduce the damage instead.  The bugs need to be fixed for it to be effective.

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I often use 1 squire blockade , 1 fire tower from apprentice and 1 earth tower from apprentice too , and it hold nice each point , ofc earth tower have a slow rate , but also a high range , so it compensate that IMO.

Sry for my english.

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By the way , what is "DU" ?  usually when we use initials we put aleast the full name atleast once then after we use initials but i didnt found ^^'.

Sry for my english.

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@[✚] Dr.Shadox quote:

By the way , what is "DU" ?  usually when we use initials we put aleast the full name atleast once then after we use initials but i didnt found ^^'.

Sry for my english.

Defense Unit : its like a defense limit on how many defense towers you could build.

It basically scale on the price of the Green Mana.

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Obelisk is pretty strong (unless it was heavily nerfed since I last played) the only problem with it is that it requires a DPS Mystic to be effective and DPS Mystic sucks so nobody wants to play that. Improve the Mystic DPS playstyle and Obelisk will be used more.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

Obelisk is pretty strong (unless it was heavily nerfed since I last played) the only problem with it is that it requires a DPS Mystic to be effective and DPS Mystic sucks so nobody wants to play that. Improve the Mystic DPS playstyle and Obelisk will be used more.

My 400K HP HD/HCD Mystic build begs to differ:) Have you even seen the AOE on her heavy weapons?

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

Obelisk is pretty strong (unless it was heavily nerfed since I last played) the only problem with it is that it requires a DPS Mystic to be effective and DPS Mystic sucks so nobody wants to play that. Improve the Mystic DPS playstyle and Obelisk will be used more.

My Mystic on C7 is vicious, especially given the amount of Dark Torments and Lash Outs I can stack in a short time. Even the Obelisk is helpful for speed killing Siege Rollers from behind. She is an AP DPSer more than anything. 

HD and HCDs are better off for the Huntress, EV, Apprentice, Squire or even Dryad.

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@ChrisH36 quote:

For the towers that cost 60 and up:

1) Ballista - Increasing the bolt's fire rate does help, but I also believe increasing the number of penetrations or making the bolt have a bit of a larger hit box for piercing would also help in harming multiple attackers. You wouldn't need the shard to increase the number of targets it can penetrate.

2) Earthshatter - It is honestly fine stat wise when you hit C6/C7 because it fires every second. However, 80 DU is indeed overkill. 60 is fine.

3) Blaze Balloon - Increase the radius it covers and make it cost 60 DU. The fact it can only get to 1000 with Deadly Strikes and Range Gambits and auras can cover 2x that is pretty sad. This is actually what got me through Chaos 4 before the Range nerfs.

4) Colossus - I think it is fine the way it is. Given it is mobile and has the life and sheer force of 2 walls

5) Weapon Manufacturer - This sadly needs a nerfing for obvious reasons. People aren't using it for the weapon construction but for the sheer and efficient damage it can cause. Also, we should be given control over what weapons it makes instead of alternating. The Atomic Launcher is far more devastating than the Mega Death Laser, especially when fired at bosses.

6) Volcano - Base damage increase wouldn't hurt, but by C7, you can optimally make it fire every 1.5 seconds and the orbs already pierce walls. A range increase to near global would make it worth the 100 without the need of a Deadly Strikes. The flight speed of the standard attack and especially Megarock would help greatly.

7) Obelisk - I think it is honestly fine the way it is in damage and the Smite is global The flamethrower effect is also fine provided you control the movement. However, the secondary effects are completely unreliable and sometimes either fire on you 3 times in a few seconds or don't even bother firing at all. 

8) Nimbus - It has pathing problems and cannot acquire certain targets (eg. under the tree) and completely lost effectiveness since its attack now only harms 1 person. If you are going to keep it on single targeting, it is best to reduce the DU cost of this one to 60 and reduce the damage instead.  The bugs need to be fixed for it to be effective.

1) Dude, phrasing. I agree with it, though. Ballista should straight up pierce everything. Every. Thing. Go straight through vanguards, 394876 little gobus and/or maybe even geode shields. If so, the cost and fire rate could stay the same, and it'd be an awesome addition to any build.

2) Just give it AoE already.

3) Delete and rework it. You have better, more useful examples like a gas trap, not another AoE fire-elemental thingy.

4) Remove the damage weakness it has.

5) It's fine as it is. Just needs the node shard to be fixed.

6) Yes. Make it 100% global and fire faster (given its random targetting and slow projectiles which often reach already-dead targets). Also, buff its health.

7) I don't even know how the mystic works, and I've been using her for a month already.

8) I wouldn't use it even with a DU cost of 60. I'd bring it back to pre-patch values with lowered damage + increased cost, or make it single-use only (like volcanoes or obelisks).

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