Super slow gear progression is quickly burning me out.

Long time dungeon defender player. Played the crap out of DD1, gave Trendy around $150 total between alpha then launch for various stuff "supporter" packages. Stopped playing for at least half a year, then came back just before launch.

So far, it's been frustrating how slow it is to progress. Next to no progress seems to be made from solo grinding. Getting a carry for a chaos tier 1 or 2 above where I'm geared gives me very minor upgrades, at best. Even after throwing around 20 million gold at gear upgrades and buying a crapload of higher level shards, I feel pretty damn wimpy, only being able to solo chaos three maps if I do everything just perfect (mostly due to my barricades being limited in health by my relics capping out around 3k tower health stat, putting my barricades around 600k health.) 

I'm just under 100 ascension now, and feel like I'm about where I was when I was at 30 ascension. To make matters worse, there's seldom folks appropriately geared in public chaos matches, and/or everyone is expecting a carry and doesn't grasp basic concepts like "repair the barricade brightly glowing and being hit on by a big ass ogre."

Maybe tweak the gear drop algorithms or something? 60 ascension levels worth of grinding with almost no progress in gear is pretty nuts.

Well, there's no "carrying" anymore - gear that drops is based off of your best geared hero in your deck. You're simply stuck because you have no idea how the system works (which is basically the problem with the system - it's too complex and isn't explained whatsoever).

Grab a mule character, always keep it in your deck while you're playing. Every wave you play, pick up everything and throw the best drops onto it (highest main stat on the items - or items with higher sell value within the same rarity). If you do this every wave you'll quickly progress - it'll take maybe 10 maps of each chaos tier to be at the gear level of breaking into the next. 

Yeah. There's a lot of grinding to this game. It really feels like 1 step forward, 2 steps back game design. Its fun, don't get me wrong. But Diablo III, Borderlands 2 and so many other gear grind games were grindy as heck, too, but still loads of fun, and made sure it felt like you always progressed. 

I've been trying various takes on the mule thing. No clear winner as to how to advance gear progression in a reasonable fashion. In Borderlands, there's obvious noteworthy progression. Not so much in DD2. It's very very slow, at best. 

In other grinding games, you can grind for an evening and get at least a decent upgrade. In DD2, you can grind a week and only get a minor upgrade. :/

Heck, even in DD1, get on a nightmare endless, and you could get numerous upgrades per run if you had a decent build. I feel like I'm fortunate to get a minor upgrade in a level that's appropriate to my gear 1 out of 10 runs. It seems like I have a slightly better chance at upgrades in chaos maps above my level, but only slightly.

knowing what shards/towers are good and buying those shard packs for medals would be the fastest way to progress.
And the progression with items is HORRIBLE, because there is no ipower to items so its really hard to know if you are equipping a upgrade or not due to random stats. As its not based on stats but a hidden ipower of a item.  Its been something that has been complained about for a long time yet they still have not done anything about it.

@TheInternal quote:

I've been trying various takes on the mule thing. No clear winner as to how to advance gear progression in a reasonable fashion. In Borderlands, there's obvious noteworthy progression. Not so much in DD2. It's very very slow, at best. 

In other grinding games, you can grind for an evening and get at least a decent upgrade. In DD2, you can grind a week and only get a minor upgrade. :/

Heck, even in DD1, get on a nightmare endless, and you could get numerous upgrades per run if you had a decent build. I feel like I'm fortunate to get a minor upgrade in a level that's appropriate to my gear 1 out of 10 runs. It seems like I have a slightly better chance at upgrades in chaos maps above my level, but only slightly.

I literally told you how to do it, lol. Every drop that occurs will be a couple of % higher than your current best equipped heros average gear level until you reach the cap for that chaos tier. 

The only way you can grind for a week without getting an upgrade is if you've completely peaked at the tier or aren't gearing properly. 

@Cuddles quote:

Well, there's no "carrying" anymore - gear that drops is based off of your best geared hero in your deck. You're simply stuck because you have no idea how the system works (which is basically the problem with the system - it's too complex and isn't explained whatsoever).

Grab a mule character, always keep it in your deck while you're playing. Every wave you play, pick up everything and throw the best drops onto it (highest main stat on the items - or items with higher sell value within the same rarity). If you do this every wave you'll quickly progress - it'll take maybe 10 maps of each chaos tier to be at the gear level of breaking into the next. 

It takes 10 in chaos 1-3  because the growth ranges are so small in low chaos; It takes 30ish for chaos 4+ because the ranges skyrocket.

@mindlessdefender quote:

knowing what shards/towers are good and buying those shard packs for medals would be the fastest way to progress.
And the progression with items is HORRIBLE, because there is no ipower to items so its really hard to know if you are equipping a upgrade or not due to random stats. As its not based on stats but a hidden ipower of a item.  Its been something that has been complained about for a long time yet they still have not done anything about it.

 As long as you stay out of legendary armor and weapons, you will 2-3 items that are better sell value and stats every match.  Legendary gear is for you dps, and they should easily make it through entire tiers of chaos with no upgrades at all.

@Cuddles quote:

Well, there's no "carrying" anymore - gear that drops is based off of your best geared hero in your deck. You're simply stuck because you have no idea how the system works (which is basically the problem with the system - it's too complex and isn't explained whatsoever).

Grab a mule character, always keep it in your deck while you're playing. Every wave you play, pick up everything and throw the best drops onto it (highest main stat on the items - or items with higher sell value within the same rarity). If you do this every wave you'll quickly progress - it'll take maybe 10 maps of each chaos tier to be at the gear level of breaking into the next. 

I'm doing this but somedays i get something that is +100 better on it's main stat but some other days i just get nothing (for example, 2 days playing C3 without any upgrade, then in the next day i got all gear +100-150 in just a single game and now i'm at 2 consec days on C4 without getting upgrades).

So, my question is: WHAT is an upgrade?

1. An item that has MORE main stat (for example, 5500 > 5400) even tho it has WORSE quality (for example, the 5500 being green and the 5400 being legendary).

2. An item that has MORE quality (Legendary > Green) even though it has WORSE main stat (5400 > 5500).

I've been always upgrading myself with the 1st option, but sometimes it seems it isn't working, so that's why i ask it.

@Master Teixi quote:

@Cuddles quote:

Well, there's no "carrying" anymore - gear that drops is based off of your best geared hero in your deck. You're simply stuck because you have no idea how the system works (which is basically the problem with the system - it's too complex and isn't explained whatsoever).

Grab a mule character, always keep it in your deck while you're playing. Every wave you play, pick up everything and throw the best drops onto it (highest main stat on the items - or items with higher sell value within the same rarity). If you do this every wave you'll quickly progress - it'll take maybe 10 maps of each chaos tier to be at the gear level of breaking into the next. 

I'm doing this but somedays i get something that is +100 better on it's main stat but some other days i just get nothing (for example, 2 days playing C3 without any upgrade, then in the next day i got all gear +100-150 in just a single game and now i'm at 2 consec days on C4 without getting upgrades).

So, my question is: WHAT is an upgrade?

1. An item that has MORE main stat (for example, 5500 > 5400) even tho it has WORSE quality (for example, the 5500 being green and the 5400 being legendary).

2. An item that has MORE quality (Legendary > Green) even though it has WORSE main stat (5400 > 5500).

I've been always upgrading myself with the 1st option, but sometimes it seems it isn't working, so that's why i ask it.

That is because upgrades are solely based on a hidden number(ipwr), where stats are rolled in a range associated with that ipwr. So,for example, an ipwr 500 item can have a stat range from 1000-2000, and an ipwr 550 could have a range of 1500-2500. The ipwr 550 will improve your average gear and keep you progressing but it could drop with a main stat of 1500 while the ipwr 500 item could drop with main stats of 2000 but be actually worse. There is no way to view this number but you can approximate it using sell value, unfortunately while ipwr doesnt care about rarity(a green and a legendary can both be the same ipwr and so equally count towards progression) sell value does. There are a few spreadsheets out there that will let you convert sell values you you can compare different rarities.

Guarantee you have either an old pre Trials bit of gear you are holding on to, just get rid of all pretrials gear, or you have a low sell value item that you are holding onto for its stats.

Build the map drop all heroes out of your deck that have lower sell value armour or relics. Play the wave. Replace any gear on your active heroes with higher sell value gear from drops. Repeat for all waves.

If you aren't the builder just have one hero in your deck with the best gear you have on, beat gear being highest sell value.

@redragon6466 quote:That is because upgrades are solely based on a hidden number(ipwr), where stats are rolled in a range associated with that ipwr. So,for example, an ipwr 500 item can have a stat range from 1000-2000, and an ipwr 550 could have a range of 1500-2500. The ipwr 550 will improve your average gear and keep you progressing but it could drop with a main stat of 1500 while the ipwr 500 item could drop with main stats of 2000 but be actually worse. There is no way to view this number but you can approximate it using sell value, unfortunately while ipwr doesnt care about rarity(a green and a legendary can both be the same ipwr and so equally count towards progression) sell value does. There are a few spreadsheets out there that will let you convert sell values you you can compare different rarities.

Oh ok. So, looking at the "main stat" is nearly useless. Looking at sell value is more accurate but still useless.
I'll take a look on google to try to find a spreadsheet of how more expensive a better quality item is, so i can compare (for example) a 120 green with a 350 legendary and still know wich of them is better.

By having a look at my gear, i can deduce (not accurate of course) that legendaries of equal ipwr are x3 sell value of a greenie relic and x2 on the other pieces, but i'll still take a look on google.

Thank you very much.

@Master Teixi quote:

@redragon6466 quote:That is because upgrades are solely based on a hidden number(ipwr), where stats are rolled in a range associated with that ipwr. So,for example, an ipwr 500 item can have a stat range from 1000-2000, and an ipwr 550 could have a range of 1500-2500. The ipwr 550 will improve your average gear and keep you progressing but it could drop with a main stat of 1500 while the ipwr 500 item could drop with main stats of 2000 but be actually worse. There is no way to view this number but you can approximate it using sell value, unfortunately while ipwr doesnt care about rarity(a green and a legendary can both be the same ipwr and so equally count towards progression) sell value does. There are a few spreadsheets out there that will let you convert sell values you you can compare different rarities.

Oh ok. So, looking at the "main stat" is nearly useless. Looking at sell value is more accurate but still useless.
I'll take a look on google to try to find a spreadsheet of how more expensive a better quality item is, so i can compare (for example) a 120 green with a 350 legendary and still know wich of them is better.

By having a look at my gear, i can deduce (not accurate of course) that legendaries of equal ipwr are x3 sell value of a greenie relic and x2 on the other pieces, but i'll still take a look on google.

Thank you very much.

Found the relevant links

This one shows max sell value per tier(although you def don't need to be there to progress, I went to c7 with 505 blue relics)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PNFslftU37q0KKEY-2EaxasXFpg2wkGr2kcu8UJ1XqQ/edit#gid=0

This on lets you convert from rarities(use File -> make a copy)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13DSkekP18QM2LbD11hyO192WNd8mGzgEnZCHDdszG_8/edit?usp=sharing

Keep in mind this is only really if you want to min max your progression or to help if your stuck, you can progress just by equipping upgrades because of how small the difference in Ipwr is per drop. I personally prefer to progress as fast as possibly, but you can still climb without doing all of this. If this becomes too annoying you can compromise by equipping literally everything onto your mule as soon as it drops or at the end of the wave and not worrying about if it is an upgrade or not.

I think you are doing something wrong, I started playing like 3 weeks ago with my GF and we can already duo C4.

Just equip the stuff with the highest price for its rarity at the end of every wave on your mule character and keep the stuff with the stats you want on the character you play regardless of the price and change them when you find better (stats), if you find stuff with different rarity use the sell value converter google sheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19D_V2MDf0d8GkLzPP2OHha8wY_6axtcU0t1s6AuGup0/edit#gid=0

Make a copy and you will be able to edit.

One of the main issues I encounter when talking about gear progression is many saying equip the highest sell value... which is ALWAYS legendaries, while many say don't equip legendaries... so... wtf?

It's not about the highest sell value unless you are limiting to a single rarity.  There is a nice spreadsheet you can use to compare Ipwr values to sell value between the different rarity types.   Though that is a pain in the ass.

Here is the easiest way to do it:  On your Loot dummy (or mule or whatever) ONLY equip blue gear.  Blue because you get more blues than other rarities.  Every single wave, if any blue dropped see if it is an upgrade (gold value wise only) over the current blue he is wearing in the slot (or slots).

I would recommend not leveling up your gear your gear cause it becomes a huge money sink and it is hard to tell when you hit the gear cap for a chaos tier...   but it does speed up the process.

I recently came back from a long hiatus and using that method the gear progression was perfect in my opinion.  I went from Campaign to C7 gear capped in about 5 weeks.   I do wish though that Trendy would just put the IPwr on the damn gear.

How long have you been in C3?

The bag filter sorts by ipwr.   So pick up all the loot in a match, go into filter mode for weapon, amour, relics and compare with your gear and be sure to upgrade at least one of your heros with the best stuff.   

Sometimes the best gear that drops is green with the wrong stats so some people have a hero just for upgrades that you can put all the junky green and blue stuff on.

@Kruntski quote:

The bag filter sorts by ipwr.   So pick up all the loot in a match, go into filter mode for weapon, amour, relics and compare with your gear and be sure to upgrade at least one of your heros with the best stuff.   

Sometimes the best gear that drops is green with the wrong stats so some people have a hero just for upgrades that you can put all the junky green and blue stuff on.

And that explains orbs at the end of the relic list, how?

@ndesse1 quote:

@Kruntski quote:

The bag filter sorts by ipwr.   So pick up all the loot in a match, go into filter mode for weapon, amour, relics and compare with your gear and be sure to upgrade at least one of your heros with the best stuff.   

Sometimes the best gear that drops is green with the wrong stats so some people have a hero just for upgrades that you can put all the junky green and blue stuff on.

And that explains orbs at the end of the relic list, how?

Good point.  I hadn't noticed that in a couple of days of testing with the spreadsheets but you are correct.  Orbs don't filter correctly probably because their maximum values are lower than the other relics.  

I'm probably not going to worry about that because orbs don't seem to drop very frequently and this method has gotten me legendary gear at 95% of the tier maximum for all my heroes fairly quickly.  Before doing this I was one of those who complained about lack of progression.

Kruntski,

Your method will work cause most of the time higher armor or higher relic primary (which is what it sorts by)  = higher IPWR...  but that only applies about 4 out of 5 pieces (in my experience) which means you will have higher IPWR items in your stash or that you sell.    You will still progress fairly quickly but about 10% to 20% slower than if you were equipping based on sell value within a single rarity.   Which is perfectly fine.

I did it this way as well C1-C5...  but when I dug into the system more I changed to a single rarity (all blue) on my mule and went off sell value alone.  I ended up getting upgrades almost every single wave.  They were only a couple gold at a time but I ended up maxing C5,  C6 and C7 what felt to me much quicker than C1-C4.

@tonyb quote:

Kruntski,

Your method will work cause most of the time higher armor or higher relic primary (which is what it sorts by)  = higher IPWR...  but that only applies about 4 out of 5 pieces (in my experience) which means you will have higher IPWR items in your stash or that you sell.    You will still progress fairly quickly but about 10% to 20% slower than if you were equipping based on sell value within a single rarity.   Which is perfectly fine.

I did it this way as well C1-C5...  but when I dug into the system more I changed to a single rarity (all blue) on my mule and went off sell value alone.  I ended up getting upgrades almost every single wave.  They were only a couple gold at a time but I ended up maxing C5,  C6 and C7 what felt to me much quicker than C1-C4.

Do you suggests not equiping strong legendaries and go for a complete blue set, in searching for upgrades?

@Tempei quote:

@tonyb quote:

Kruntski,

Your method will work cause most of the time higher armor or higher relic primary (which is what it sorts by)  = higher IPWR...  but that only applies about 4 out of 5 pieces (in my experience) which means you will have higher IPWR items in your stash or that you sell.    You will still progress fairly quickly but about 10% to 20% slower than if you were equipping based on sell value within a single rarity.   Which is perfectly fine.

I did it this way as well C1-C5...  but when I dug into the system more I changed to a single rarity (all blue) on my mule and went off sell value alone.  I ended up getting upgrades almost every single wave.  They were only a couple gold at a time but I ended up maxing C5,  C6 and C7 what felt to me much quicker than C1-C4.

Do you suggests not equiping strong legendaries and go for a complete blue set, in searching for upgrades?

Not sticking to 1 rarity will massively complicate you gearing cycle,  but you will get loot improvements faster and more consistently. your DPS and builders, on the other hand, should have whatever gives the most relevant stat points as possible.

yep progression problems like the ones i have stated over and over. with zero input from trendy. and with all the help the community has offered i can say there isnt a true way to progress. i can say i have had 1 drop since launch that was close to my gear. maybe -600 less then my maxxed gear. The progression and lack or content coupled with rotation and other issues are really killing this game. 4-6 month top this game is already dead.

Tbh progression is fine. i went from c1-c7 in roughly 10 days. which i find fair. and gear wise idk whats wrong with dd304 the entire communtiy has tried to help him i think hes just memeing at this point. but im already at 20k relics almost 21k relics i believe the max is 22k. protip just ignore dd304 ever since trendy betrayed him and gave xbox a map for dd2 that we get in the next update hes been.. well... rather upset.

lol butthurt much?

Not really because i can progress in the correct direction. aka not backwards. Also DD304 game isnt dead its actually gaining players maybe you should go look at the steam charts before you make claims.

DD2 Playerbase