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Caimen0

A Look at the Lesser-Used DPS characters

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In the past, there have been several threads discussing DPS character imbalance, but not much has changed. (With a few exceptions, of course) Hopefully, we can change that in the next few updates. This first post will be my understanding of why each character is underused, and my ideas on how to change that will follow.

     Summoner
The summoner was never meant to be and never will be a pure DPS character. However, there are several problems that the summoner has that hold back both the character and the player from more effectively using what attributes the Summoner brings.

Beyond minions, the Summoner is primarily used for gathering armor in survivals and not much else. There are a few builds such as djinnlet + imp for an AFK/repair summoner and Monkey/Parrot/Chicken + Genie for an upgrade summoner, but the latter is thoroughly outclassed by Jester and the former has low enough HP that it can easily die while you switch windows. Furthermore, it is difficult to reach higher waves on survivals such as Embermount and Tinkerer's Lab due to the lack of the Summoner's ability to influence the map. You only have limited uses of Flash Heal, and this can oftentimes not be enough to salvage a situation. Once your mana from Flash Heal is used up, you have to reenter the map with a low HP character that can easily be killed while attempting to gather mana for future waves.

     Squire
The Squire suffers from existing in the same game as the Barbarian. Hawk stance scales better with stats, hits twice by default, scales better with Hero Boost, and doesn't have its damage reduced by Nightmare as much as Circular Slice. Furthermore, Tornado Stance allows the barbarian the same movement capability as the Squire for less mana and cooldown. The only thing the Squire has going for him is blocking, which the Barbarian can almost make up for with Turtle Stance. Almost.

     Countess
Countess is about as horrible a DPS class as you can get in Dungeon Defenders. Horrible mb1 damage, Joust is useless against bosses, and CtA is worse than Hero Boost in every conceivable fashion. Also doesn't get an SL skin for stat boosts. Not much else to say here.

     Initiate
The Initiate could be a fantastic support class... if Monk didn't exist and do everything better. Better melee swing pattern (ninja skin), better abilities, stat boosts (SL Monk). There are a few people with ab2 initiates, but they are rare and seldom used outside survivals.

     Apprentice/Adept
Apprentice and Adept were rightfully buffed but are still largely outclassed in several ways. Mana/Purity bomb has a practically unusable cooldown and lower overall damage output than Jester, who also performs the upgrader role more competently than both anyway.

Next post will be the suggestions I have come up with to improve the state of these characters.

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     Summoner
Due to Summoner’s godawful pet damage output, it’s pointless buffing it. There are better ways to approach the character.
As it stands, armor survivals in the hardest maps that can give you the best armor are hard to do because without Wheel of Fortune, your minions have a hard time killing 230m HP ogres. Furthermore, the damage output of these ogres can lead to many uses of Flash Heal being necessary. This can run you out of mana quickly due to the 7 second cooldown.

My proposals:

  • Remove minion movespeed from ability1 and make it scale directly with Summoner level rather than stats.
  • Replace ability1 with a hail of arrows that deal %HP per tick based on ab1 stat. (Basically give Summoner the Lightning Storm amulet from DDE) 30+ second CD depending on the %HP you want to let it reach.
  • Make Flash Heal restore mana to the summoner based on thenumber of targets healed; 50 mana per character healed and 15 mana per tower healed.
  • Only force the phase shift animation when entering and exiting Overlord; use a non-movement breaking animation/particle effect for entering and exiting Phase Shift

How the changes affect the character:

This will increase the ability of the Summoner to affect the outcome of a survival run. You won’t have to leave Phase Shift in order to keep your mana up, and have a way to significantly affect mobs that are causing issues near your minion lines. Furthermore, smoothing up the entrance animation to and from Phase Shift will allow Summoners to more fluidly affect battle scenarios that do not allow them to be in Overlord – effectively allowing them to take a more active role as a support healing class.


     Squire
Squire simply needs more damage to be relevant. That or new abilities.

My proposals:

  • Buff spin scaling to be closer to par with Hawk
  • Bring damage reduction in Nightmare to 85% instead of 87%

If anyone has better ideas, please put them out there because Squire needs them.


     Countess

Garbage tier character. Nuiff said.

My proposals:

  • Joust does not immediately cancel upon colliding with a hitbox it cannot move through (3 or 4 extra ticks of the ability before canceling)
  • Joust damage against enemies ramps significantly upon taking consecutive ticks of damage – the more a sword goes through you, the more damage it does
  • Replace Call to Arms with a shield block. Acts as a normal block but allows for player movement and camera rotation. All (or only some) damage absorbed during the duration is added to the base damage of the sword during the next use of Joust. (Think Borderlands Pre-Sequel Athena)

How the changes affect the character:

These changes still allow Countess to run down long hallways massacring everything, but adds ways to significantly increase the damage output of the ability. Trapping an ogre against a wall will force the ogre to take the extra damage ticks that it might not have otherwise taken, all of which will be significantly stronger. The shield changes allow for massive damage boosting of Joust, and when compared with the ramping damage ticks and extra instances of damage against unmovable hitboxes (see: any boss), you can become a niche speed killer. (See Goblin Battlecruiser, Akatiti mech, potentially Old One)


     Initiate

Initiate lacks boss fight impact and ability1. Most people are for applying Ab2 to bosses to some degree, but nobody has yet proposed many changes to ab1. That I can recall, anyway.

My Proposals:

  • Apply Ab2 to bosses (Everyone already agrees with this anyway)
  • Replace Remote Tower Boost with a long cooldown “emergency boost” – very short, very potent buff applied directly to the final stats of the tower

How the changes affect the character:

The Ab2 has been discussed at length. You know what happens. The ability1 change would allow the Initiate to become a point defense character of sorts. Activating a local tower boost while stripping enemy resistances would effectively allow an initiate to stem bleeding on a falling or in danger choke. While Monk’s Tower Boost has a similar effect, some situations simply can’t be fixed with a minor heal and stat buff.


     Apprentice/Adept
Apprentice and adept are in an awkward spot. Mana Bomb and Purity Bomb are strong, but the cooldown is so prohibitively long that it isn’t usable in a meaningful way in most boss encounters. They are also in an unenviable position of being outclassed by the Jester in both staff damage output and ability to upgrade towers.

My proposals:

  • Bring the bomb cooldowns to 25s and 20s respectively
  • Allow SL skin damage boost to apply to Mana Bomb
  • Bring staff damage on par with Jester
  • Apprentice’s Overcharge increases staff charge rate; right + left click during overcharge = 100% staff charge damage

How the changes affect the character(s):

This firstly brings the Bombs into line with other abilities. (let’s remember than Mana Bomb is a 10 second cooldown in DD2, so we’re not in “broken” territory) This also gives the Apprentice an appealing reason to be used instead of Jester for DPS. Still closer to niche territory, but much improved over its current state.


     Series EV
Series EV is broken right now with Ember Staff, but I have a quick suggestion: give the Jetpacking Bounty Hunter the skin boosts that EV 1.5 gets so people can choose what skin they want on a DPS EV. (Don’t drop movespeed though)

   
When thinking about changes, keep in mind that the perfect is the enemy of the good. We will never have perfect class balance, so the best we can do is bring the outliers into line, which is what these changes are designed to do.

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on the squire you need to keep in mind when buffing spin that he does have the double spin glitch. So make sure you keep that in min when it comes to buffing the character. But i do agree he does need a buff. I have been working a lot on the EV lately testing stuff as i feel he is in a extremely good spot but super underrated. The second weapon also allows him to obtain very high stats. Countess needs a buff also i agree with you caimen. 

(mkjo would also agree on the countess i feel)

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Dammit Caimen, again beat me to making a character re-working thread(literally had 2 pages of stuff in MSWord written for something like this!). Anyways, time to copy paste some stuff.

Summoner.
-- I'd still stick by my stand of having a bit of pet damage buff.
-- Other than that -- currently Moonbase is the king for armor survival. Ember and the upcoming map may have a better multiplier, but the simple fact that Moonbase has upwards of 8k mobs in Survival waves -- simply means it has more "opportunities" to roll gear compared to Embermount, etc. Hence no one plays Ember Survival(at least not the mainstream playerbase). Or for that matter any-other survival.
-- Moreover, staying on the topic of survivals, once the next update arrive, I doubt those that have good enough stats will continue to use summoner for survivals. Currently there is an issue of armors being de-spawned more than weapons, but that's being fixed. So -- 3x Jesters and a Monk AFK = speed-running through survivals.
-- With all that said, I'm all for having a usable support-DPS summoner, so whatever makes it better(even if no pet damage buff), then why not.
-- The Ab1 should ideally scale with Summoner Tower Rate stat as it impacts minions(towers) directly. And its a Wasted AB1 slot wasted becasue who really moves their minions from buffs? I don't know of anyone as such.
-- Replacing AB1 with something like -- Phase Burst -- You can stay in Phase Mode but you are able to collect items/mana for say 3, 4 or 5 seconds(whichever is balanced). With a 40-45 sec cooldown. There are loads of times where you see something good drop on the map but can't go and immedieately pick it up(even if you have a Chicken+Fairy) becasue you'll get rekt. So this kind of ability helps in that aspect, plus often I've lost dropped loot due to random disconnects.


Squire.
-- So this is a bit tricky for me as I use a Squire DPS for Boss Rush quite a bit.
-- Personally for me the Spin could use a slight increase in damage, but we have to remember that this ability is literally spam-able to hell as you can execute it every 3 secs.
-- Therefore without seeing how much the buff will impact damage output, I can't, for now, commit to it. I may change my stance after seeing some sheer numbers.
-- Currently my (HP)Squire with 3000 H-DMG and 1880 Spin with a 2500 Blood Rage does about 12m spin damage with a 133k SoE, no cat and on SL Skin.
-- I've also noticed that Spin scales with H-DMG and its own stat, and not just either of the two. So I'd actually propose changing its scaling directly with the Spin stat to make it more meaningful.
-- Overall I think Squire is a well rounded character(great HP, can buff itself, quick ability execution, good pet damage scaling). IMO it just requires very minor tweaking rather than a total re-vamp.


Countess.

-- Just 3 letters -- L O L.
-- Objectively one of the worst DPS characters out there, despite having a lot of potential (and a great character design[read: looks]).
-- My suggestion to making it better will be -- CtA gets changed to Blood Rage like ability which simply increases damage output in a AoE, so affect others + retains speed bonus and everyone moves faster, and has a higher mana-cost ramp-up and cool-down. Those flimsy resistance boosts etc. are just wasteful and barely help.
-- As for Joust -- again a simple suggestion -- remove the auto-moving part of the ability, its very counter-productive. Rather, change it to something like EV's Proton Blast which gives the player full control of whom to target and where to move. Retain any sped bonuses and knockback while manually moving ploughing through enemies and the ability doesn't get cancelled unless you run out of mana or cancel it yourself.
-- That alone makes the ability more attractive IMO, becasue now you have total control of where to run through rather than randomly falling off the map(yes you can cancel, but really).
-- Therefore apart from a total re-vamp, I don't see much scope for the Countess given how the current abilities work.


Initiate.
-- I love Initiate, I use my AB2 booster Initiate actively on non-Boss maps, its fantastic for dealing with Ogres/Trash mobs. But for anything else, its terrible.
-- There was enough support for AB2 to work on Bosses, by how much that I'll keep up for debate. I'll just throw a random figure of 45% out there. Currently there is no way to see how much DPS impact it would have, so this'll something that'd require testing.
-- As to how they should be improved, I'll just link your thread where these abilities were discussed -- https://dungeondefenders.com/1/topic/139746/initiate-and-countess-ability-buffs
-- In summary:
------ RDB Changes to Monk Tower Boost like ability, but it increases Rate, Range & Resists of the Towers.
------ Enemy Drain Affects Bosses(by a lesser degree) and Heals All characters(including Initiate) who do deal damage while under the influence of Enemy Drain. I.E. in a true sense -- enemy drain(read more here and then some more on the next page).
------ Slightly more HP scaling. (Totally optional)


Apprentice/Adept.
-- IMO Adept cooldown is fine, use it actively in pubs etc. no complains. Good character overall.
-- Apprentice cooldown could be reduced by a few secs, like 5.
-- Already suggested in QoL thread to fix Apprentice/Adept hero/weapon-damage scaling(for normal skins) to be in line with Jester, currently its not. Which will also then make SL Apprentice do the intended 15/20%(keep forgetting numbers) damage more than the normal skins.
-- Additional suggestion would be -- Add an Instant Repair feature to the Adept ability(explaining more on this below). Currently once you max out all the towers, that ability of Adept is rendered useless for the entirety of the map. Whereas the Apprentice can still use the Overcharge to repair towers and heal.
-- So, Instant Repair and how it'll work(might be complex to implement but let's see) -- First and foremost -- Instant Upgrade does just that -- upgrades towers/minions. Once you point/hover over a tower that has been fully max upgraded -- then the ability instead of blacking out give you an opportunity to repair it instantly at a greatly increased mana cost(say 3x the normal charge just for the sake of it). Moreover, if you point/hover the ability on yourself, it then insta-heals you too, again at a greatly increased mana cost(say 2.5x the normal healing cost).
-- No comments on your suggestion regarding the Overcharge. IMO it should simply stay as repair, upgrade and healing, basically anything that requires casting should be affected, nothing else. But I'm not opposed to the inclusion of what you've suggested.

Series EV.
-- So this is a bit controversial territory for me. Way I see it, the Ember Staff multiplier has actually re-invigorated the usage of EV as a solid DPS.
-- Never liked the Bounty Hunter costume, so I don't care if its improved etc.


SOME MORE....

Ranger.
-- Mentioned most of these earlier and re-mentioning again:
------ Reduce mana cost ramp-up & Cooldown time.
------ Remove towers being invisible/affected by the AoE.
------ FIX AoE MAKING AN ALREADY INVISIBLE HUNTRESS AS VISIBLE, DUH!

Barbarian.
-- Lightning stance stun time increased by 2 secs, and doesn't make you lose HP.
-- Siphon Stance healing cost reduced, but you don't take more damage anymore.
-- Turtle Stance works as Squire/Countess 100%+ Block, i.e. no damage taken while under its affect, increase mana cost as a result of this change.


Jester.
-- Jester Move Tower can now cycle through auras/traps/towers stacked on top of each other. x_x
-- Jester Move Tower also has 20% more radius, and costs mana per tower moved instead of a one-time cost of 80 mana. If you take damage you can come out of the Move Tower mode, which wastes the mana. Also once you are in the Move Tower Mode, you take slightly less damage, and can't exit the mode unless you do it manually.
-- And well, this(click).



Phew, long one!

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Countess:

The main problem with CtA comes from trendy's inability / unwillingness to code it properly. It's a Hero Boost with different (worse) properties and only 1 status effect can be active at a time so it collides with monk's boost.

Joust is a joke and was already an obsolete concept when it got added to the game.


I wouldn't mind keeping countess as support class. just make CtA stack with boost, even if it's only a minimal effect (like how boost affects blood rage) it will be more appealing. Ideal would be a minimal boost stack and more significant blood rage stack (so squire+countess could be an alternative to barb+monk)

Joust should be a one-time higher impact attack with a much lower dmg than hawk/circular slice but more spammable. Balance-wise it wouldn't be a big issue if you set the mana consumption correctly. (ie. you'll run out of mana a lot faster and can kiss goodbye to CtA's team boost :)


App/Adept:

Jester is faster, has ***load of more hp and will have higher stats due to 2nd weapon. GL finding a way to make them comparable. Both app/adept rule in PvP but that's probably dd's least important part :)

(main reason I like the adept / countess is because they are so pathetic it's challenging to play them)


Squire:

Minor buff maybe, I don't have much problem with it as is. Keep in mind a squire Is a LOT harder to gear than barb due to both ab1+ab2 being useful for him.


Ranger:

I personally never use it but Invisibility Field suffers from the same problems as CtA (lousy coding)


Huntress:

Someone please explain to me WHY huntress and ranger have different pet dmg multipiler

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Summoner: I honestly see no reason to change the summoner. I feel that the mana cost/cooldown are well balanced for a strong AoE heal. I think the summoner is in a good place as a support type character and I feel that phase shift justifies the low HP perfectly. I've also never really had problems with collecting mana since you can exit phase shift overlord on top of a mana pile and instantly go into phase shift mode. You are invulnerable to damage and you can still collect the mana. If anything would be changed I guess the best course of action would be to do what Mamba said with the mana collection AB1. Although to reiterate I don't think anything should be changed with the summoner.


Squire: I think the squire will be fine with some small changes. I think if anything were to be done about the spin it should be making the nightmare modifier equal to that of the barb. I do think that blood rage should be buffed though. The mana drain on that spell is disgusting. It should be made on par with Hero Boost. Also the cooldown on it should be lowered to, say, 20 seconds.


Apprentace: Dear god lower the cooldown on mana bomb. That spell is very nice but only being able to use it like once or twice a wave is stupid. I think that the weapon scaling on apprentace should be higher than that of the jester. Since the apprentace only gets one weapon and doesn't have the god tier utility of the wheel I think it should get bonus weapon damage. Maybe only make the weapon scaling higher than jester with the SL skin, but definately make it stronger.


Series EV: Dear lord the ember scepters were a mistake. I am not quite sure how it was "intended" to have a weapon be oh so revoltingly stronger than any other weapon, but apparently it was. That being said, it is nice to see EV in a meta roll. I say we turn down ember scepters to a REASONABLE level, but straight up buff the ability. That way we get to have some variety in the weapon choice but still have the EV in a better place.


Barbarian: Please don't buff the reigning king of DPS. Leave it as it is.

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A few notes on Mambo's list-

No matter how much you increase pet damage, it is still undirectable damage that requires you to leave overlord with a tiny HP pool. It won't actually change anything about how strong Summoner is. I simply don't understand this desire.


While Squire's spin is every 3 seconds, Hawk stance has 2 second animation lock and 2 second cooldown. It's every bit as spammable as Circular Slice.


Removing the automovement on Joust seems like a mistake. The point of bareling sdown a hallway is that you're moving uncontrollably fast, like how medieval jousting worked. Furthermore, how would this work moving sideways? I guess my point here is that I'm having trouble visualizing how you want this to work.


The barbarian changes worry me at best. THe barbarian doesn't need buffs and adding invincibility with none of the drawbacks of squire blocking is a mistake waiting to be made.


@SupahMo quote:

Series EV: Dear lord the ember scepters were a mistake. I am not quite sure how it was "intended" to have a weapon be oh so revoltingly stronger than any other weapon, but apparently it was.

This wasn't intended. It's the accidental result of the way scalings work with single projectile staves. You'll see similar things next patch when the Elder Staff comes out.

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Elder staff is currently 3 projectiles, and it scales 1/3 of ember sceptre on EV beam.  A 120k elder staff does the same EV beam damage as a 200k pawn/moby, while a 120k ember sceptre does the same beam damage as a hypothetical 600k pawn/moby.

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Removing the automovement on Joust seems like a mistake. The point of bareling sdown a hallway is that you're moving uncontrollably fast, like how medieval jousting worked. Furthermore, how would this work moving sideways? I guess my point here is that I'm having trouble visualizing how you want this to work.

In its current state, even if Joust damage is buffed and hitbox issues fixed it'll still be a fairly unreliable ability simply because you have no control over it. Every other character has control over their ability, be it movement based or otherwise. I think hero abilities should be modeled so that they give players full control of the characters.
With the forward Joust, despite a buff of damage(which it dearly needs) there will still be a high enough unpredictability and danger of falling off in some maps. The way I was looking to visualize is that it literally works similar to EV Proton Blast, so your sword becomes the "proton beam", but if you move forward, you get the speed bonus and knockback and deal damage to enemies. In the current state you can't move sideways anyway. So rather than moving sideways(i.e. strafing) pone can simply turn the camera/cursor itself to aim sideways and then move forward, strafing would be pointless in this ability.
Essentially, giving control of Joust direction is what I'm suggesting, now how it is achieved is all on CDT, may use some other mechanic for it or what I suggested, doesn't matter. Point is need control on Joust for it to be attractive enough to be used.

One more alternate suggestion I can present is that Joust creates a Decoy of the Countess and that Decoy rushes forward ploughing through anyone and anything rather than the Countess itself rushing forward. So basically EV's Decoy + Huntress's Piercing Shot. Then I'd consider using Joust as at least the character itself isn't in any danger of falling off or getting stuck or whatever.

______________________________________________________________

Plane is correct. Elder/Water Staff doesn't have the same scaling as Ember Staff. 3 Projectiles, so internally the damage is 1/3 per projectile, hence 1/3rd scaling as Plane explained. Tried and tested it. I think this is good becasue compared to the Ember Staff, the new one is fairly easier to farm and rolls with pretty crazy stats consistently. That in a true sense would've been OP for EV DPS mains.

I personally think EV is now a very good formidable character, intended or not. Prior to the Ember Staff "discovery", there weren't very many mainstream EV DPS chars. I had one just for ***s and giggles becasue even after putting a Cat and a stat-stick and then a 200k Pawnshot, the EV was still somewhat lackluster. I think Ember Staff does help promote a mainstream EV DPS similar to Barbarians as a Boss-Killer. I'd strongly reject and oppose any changes to this. Besides getting a good usable Ember Staff for the EV to be "so-called" OP is still a challenge in itself. Therefore I think its justified that the Ember Staff scales that high on EV Proton Blast compared to anything else, even if that wasn't the intent and slipped the radar due to lack of testing. Doesn't matter, the character offers a decent incentive to be played as Boss-Killer now. Its not game-breaking anyways.

______________________________________________________________

Pjtor 

(main reason I like the adept / countess is because they are so pathetic it's challenging to play them)

I think Adept is pretty easy to play for experienced players, ask Plane or me! :P
Put on a Rfit/Classic/Ember Staff with a Chicken(or a Seahores, ew!), gear up with AB2 and boom -- you got a better secondary upgrader(i.e. one that relies on mana feeding) than a Jester and an instant high intensity AoE damage with great movement speeds. She is pretty squishy, but that's ok.
Can't say the same about Countess sadly, still not challenging to play as, more like -- just annoying and not fun! Which sucks becasue Countess has tons of potential to be a good secondary DPS in a team or even a solo/primary DPS in most maps.

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@Plane quote:

Elder staff is currently 3 projectiles, and it scales 1/3 of ember sceptre on EV beam.

I am well aware. That is why I said "similar", not "the same"


@Black Mamba quote:The way I was looking to visualize is that it literally works similar to EV Proton Blast, so your sword becomes the "proton beam", but if you move forward, you get the speed bonus and knockback and deal damage to enemies. In the current state you can't move sideways anyway. So rather than moving sideways(i.e. strafing) pone can simply turn the camera/cursor itself to aim sideways and then move forward, strafing would be pointless in this ability.

Essentially, giving control of Joust direction is what I'm suggesting, now how it is achieved is all on CDT, may use some other mechanic for it or what I suggested, doesn't matter. Point is need control on Joust for it to be attractive enough to be used.

If the idea is to simply give the ability a better turning radius (what I think I'm getting from this), then I'm all in favor. But using the sword as a "proton beam" sounds asinine. You can't just walk sideways, hit something with the flat edge of a sword, and deal several million damage. Well you can, it's just hard to justify. (though I guess you covered that with you strafing comment)


Furthermore I completely disagree that you have to be able to turn to be "attractive" to use. You can turn all you want, if it does no damage it won't be attractive. What is attractive is being able to actually kill things, and simply adding the ability to turn or strafe doesn't improve the viability of Joust.

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Actually what I'm saying is that to make it usable, it has to be able to do both -- i.e. more damage, and the ability to turn/control the charge itself. So better control/turning radius, etc.  and more damage. Although for me, simply "better control" doesn't cut it, it has to be full control.
Either that, or the 2nd alternative which I gave seems somewhat better -- pop a decoy, and the decoy charges ahead while dealing damage to whatever comes in between.

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Summoner:

I'd support the flash heal restoring mana per unit healed, as I do find having to unphase to collect mana quite annoying.

Changing AB1 to a hail of (crystal if I might add) arrows also sounds quite cool, as it would give the summoner an 'attack' from the crystalline realm, and would fit into the character imo.

I'm not too bothered about the phase shift animation, but it would be nice if it only forced the animation going into overlord :)

I'm completely against buffing pet dps on summoner, as I feel its useful enough already. All of the arguments I'd add to this statement are generally what Wootton has already explained in the other thread already (lore, general premise of the character being a builder in the first place etc.).


Squire:

I don't understand why the damage reduction for squire would be different than any other character, so I'd support bringing it in line with others at 85% (I seem to remember hearing other characters are at 85% already, correct me if I'm wrong).

Spin already deals a decent amount of damage from what I've seen, as well as the fact that you can hit twice with hit quite consistently, especially with a slower weapon.

While blood rage is strong, the mana cost increases so rapidly, so I wouldn't mind if the mana cost ramped up slightly slower.


Countess:

I like the proposals Caimen has come up with, as current dps countess is next to useless from what I've tried and the fact Pjtor has gone on about it multiple times. I mentioned dps countess being weak in my thread on lightning stance for barb, so I'd support these changes. I wouldn't mind keeping CTA and just fine tuning it to stack lightly with hero boost (as in Pj's post), although buffing hero speed in the aura could be fun to play around with as well (as in Mambo's post).

I don't like the idea of changing joust to be another 1 hit burst ability (as described in pj's post) though, as we already have a lot of burst abilities, so a constant dps abilitiy as it is currently is a nice change from the norm.


Initiate:

I went over this in my other post. I'd support enemy drain affecting bosses, but the extent to which it does affect bosses will need to be balanced. I like Mambo's suggestion of enemy drain being a siphon aura to fit the 'drain' aspect, and I'd support changes proposed in that earlier thread discussing initiate abilities. Honestly, I wouldn't miss remote defense boost though, so changing it to an emergency boost as Caimen suggested could be a nice idea.


Apprentice/Adept:

Reducing bomb cooldowns. Yes. The cooldown is a bit long to work with at the moment imo.

I'm in favour of bringing the weapon scaling on par with jesters, but I don't like the idea of buffing it past them. Apprentice has an SL skin which buffs damage by 20% iirc, so increasing the base weapon scaling past jesters would be a bit too strong imo.

I like Caimen's suggestions for overcharge.


Series EV:

I feel like ember sceptres gave DPS EVs a breath of life, as I don't remember seeing that many dps EVs before the discovery. I don't really have an opinion on the bounty hunter skin being buffed, as I prefer the EV 1.75 skin anyway :)


Ranger:

Fixes as in Mambo's post plox.


Barbarian:

I made a post on the lightning stance, just going to drop a link: Lightning stance pls

Turtle stance being another block? No thanks, that's taking another one of the unique points from squire dps away and placing it in barbarian's repertoire. I feel like siphon stance is a decently useful stance already, even with the risk of lower resistances.


Jester:
I've voiced my concerns over the changes proposed in Mambo's wheel thread already, but honestly I'm veering against those changes suggested in the thread still, as I don't see why a hero (key word) ability should have so many negative effects.

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Posted a response and got this. Oh well... I will re-post at a later time!
Absolutely need to move over to Steam Discussions. Frustrating as hell. Worst forums ever.
oHZ6Vhg.png

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@Black Mamba quote:

Posted a response and got this. Oh well... I will re-post at a later time!
Absolutely need to move over to Steam Discussions. Frustrating as hell. Worst forums ever.
oHZ6Vhg.png

i hate that. why i always copy my posts into a notepad before posting them.

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Usually I copy when its like 4-5 paragraphs long, this time I didn't because I had literally just signed-in to the site LOL.
Oh well, still not the solution for this though, haha! These forums need to die already.

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Summoner

I feel summoner is in a really good position support-wise.  You can flash heal + repair at the same time, all while in phase shift and immune to damage.  I have no issues at all getting mana during the combat phase - just make sure you have resists and a decent amount of health, same as any other character you would use in combat phase.


Squire

I have to admit I haven't played squire that much recently, but in my opinion the issue with squire is 100% on Blood Rage.  Squire needs Blood Rage active just to deal DPS around that of barb (without any abilities active).  As well, barb can get monk's full hero boost on top of his damage, while squire only gets ~1/3 (not sure on the numbers, but it's pretty bad) of the effect.  And add to that a crazy mana upkeep and cooldown.

Please reduce the mana upkeep and/or cooldown of Blood Rage, and there's no need to buff his damage or BR/HB stacking.


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I disagree with the summoner getting an active attack (hail of arrows) style ability, it kinda undermines what the character is intended for.

Instead I'd suggest the pet damage being buffed a bit and as a second ability a minion buff.

I see this working either like flash heal, all minions within range when (where) are affected, or it could be slightly more precise where the player can select which minions to affect with the mana cost scaling per selected minion/MU.  

Whichever activation method is selected affected minions will be buffed (made golden perhaps) for a short period (10-30 secs) making their resists go really high and damage output quadruple (based on stats, scaling balance etc)

This ability allows the summoner character to impact the battle in a meaningful way while personally remaining passive. 

To solve the issue with gathering mana, perhaps allow the summoner to gather mana while phased (not overlord) but have 50% of the mana lost when this happens so picking up a 500 crystal only gives the summoner 250 mana to use.


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