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Survey: How do you define player skill?


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We've created a new survey! In this survey, we want to know what you believe defines player skill in Dungeon Defenders 2. This survey should only take a minute to fill out! 

If you'd like to discuss this survey more, please do so here!

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I just want to add, i was really unhelpful on this survey and for that I apologize. My concept of skill seems to not be very tangible. 

Best expressed by saying:

"A simple (3-4 tower types involved) build that can beat every map and mode in the game with vastly differing requirements in active hero involvement while not dying or losing defenses. 

So to bullet point that:

  • A simple build that works on every map.
  • Not dying
  • Not losing any defenses
  • Removing RNG losses by intelligent building placement and tower choices 
  • Being able to make unique strategies or hero builds to counter new challenges before there is a meta to deal with it. 
  • Being able to pick up the slack on maps where your build is weaker with hero involvement
  • Good DPS heroes to make easy work of bosses or incursion requirements (speed/mobility/burst dps/ tankability)
  • High game knowledge (from min maxing on upgrading, to pets and builds)
  • Not requiring meta guides to win (some guy with a mental and complex build for C7 out skills the guy who copy pasted WM or FA META)

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@Zimmermann quote:
  • A simple build that works on every map.
  • Removing RNG losses by intelligent building placement and tower choices 

I think those points contradict each other. Intelligent tower choices and using the same build on every map. That would mean that the types of enemies and the layout of the map has zero impact on "intelligent tower choice" because you're using the same towers for everything instead of saying ok this map has long narrow straight lanes with enemies that counter traps so Tower X is an intelligent choice to use here, but that other map has short winding lanes with enemies that counter projectiles so Defense Y is the intelligent choice to use there. By saying "a simple build that works on every map" you're saying use the same set of defenses for every situation without any decision making process to determine what is the most intelligent tower choice under the current circumstances.


If you were saying figure out which one tower is the best tower to use in all situations, that would essentially mean figure out what the most OP tower is and spam that on every map. I don't think that would be a good measure of "skill".

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:
@Zimmermann quote:
  • A simple build that works on every map.
  • Removing RNG losses by intelligent building placement and tower choices 

I think those points contradict each other. Intelligent tower choices and using the same build on every map. That would mean that the types of enemies and the layout of the map has zero impact on "intelligent tower choice" because you're using the same towers for everything instead of saying ok this map has long narrow straight lanes with enemies that counter traps so Tower X is an intelligent choice to use here, but that other map has short winding lanes with enemies that counter projectiles so Defense Y is the intelligent choice to use there. By saying "a simple build that works on every map" you're saying use the same defenses for every situation without any decision making process to determine what is the most intelligent tower choices.

Knowing how to place blockades doesn't require a more complex build, knowing at what place on a lane to build to reduce damage to your blockades or even remove damage completely requires intelligent placement.

Intelligent placement does not mean intelligent tower picks. Thats my clear distinction here.

A simple build is about being able to learn how it performs on every map and against every monster type and being able to up your game when your build does poorly, maybe against its hard counter. The skill I am speaking about is being able to prove a map can be beaten with XYZ, its not the skill or rather knowledge of knowing what counters it. I took massive pride in beating Catacombs NM4 solo with Lightning auras, Sky Guards and frosties shortly after the Abyss Lord was released for example. My humble opinion of course here.

There was a community challenge back in the day, the challenge was to simply beat the Altar incursion with just blockades and not dying, I also did it without dragolitch as back then it was incredibly overpowered. The skill/knowledge was learning how many blockades per lane, which should be upgraded, and how to effectively "save mana through good upgrade investment". I was using squire blockades that had a broken shard (shielding) at the time and they were very under powered with damage too at the time.

Now I am not saying this was the most skillful thing anyone has ever done^^ far from it.. but it was skill+intelligent placement + a simple build nevertheless, and no contradictions involved :)



Hope this clears up my definition a little more for you Hom.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:
@Zimmermann quote:
  • A simple build that works on every map.
  • Removing RNG losses by intelligent building placement and tower choices 

I think those points contradict each other. Intelligent tower choices and using the same build on every map. That would mean that the types of enemies and the layout of the map has zero impact on "intelligent tower choice" because you're using the same towers for everything instead of saying ok this map has long narrow straight lanes with enemies that counter traps so Tower X is an intelligent choice to use here, but that other map has short winding lanes with enemies that counter projectiles so Defense Y is the intelligent choice to use there. By saying "a simple build that works on every map" you're saying use the same set of defenses for every situation without any decision making process to determine what is the most intelligent tower choice under the current circumstances.


If you were saying figure out which one tower is the best tower to use in all situations, that would essentially mean figure out what the most OP tower is and spam that on every map. I don't think that would be a good measure of "skill".


How about instead of arguing over his suggestion, you ACTUALLY add to the conversation and talk about what you think defines player skills? That would be a MUCH better use of your time & Trendy's time. 


Here are some thoughts I had on the subject:

1 example would be is when defenses fail & a boss starts walking over to the core & is standing next to it, a player is able to successfully keep the boss from ever hitting the core & focus attacks on the player util the boss is dead. That takes some mad skill!


Another example would be is knowing how to properly use skills in the right moments & stay alive. i.e. You see a large group of kobolds heading down a lane & you do not want them touching your walls. So you provoke them all to explode on either you, without dying, or on each other.


Being able to use defenses "properly." By properly, I mean knowing that proton beam will cause flying kobolds to dive bomb & so you use PB in lanes with flying kobolds. You know that Oil geysers hit flyers as well & are able to place them in the correct spots to hit flyers. In short, Properly means knowing when & where to use defenses in ways that others don't always think about. 


Doing a "wall-less" build where other defenses effectively act as a wall for most enemies. Maybe turn Cannons into walls but still be effective DPS. Maybe turn Oil geysers into walls, but still be effective DPS.

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@SpiderDanX quote:

Another example would be is knowing how to properly use skills in the right moments & stay alive. i.e. You see a large group of kobolds heading down a lane & you do not want them touching your walls. So you provoke them all to explode on either you, without dying, or on each other.


Pfft... Always trying to stay alive is overrated. Real skill comes with knowing when dieing is worth it.

(If you're unsure if this is meant to be sarcastic, it's okay; so am I.)

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@CollectorOfBolts quote:


@SpiderDanX quote:

Another example would be is knowing how to properly use skills in the right moments & stay alive. i.e. You see a large group of kobolds heading down a lane & you do not want them touching your walls. So you provoke them all to explode on either you, without dying, or on each other.


Pfft... Always trying to stay alive is overrated. Real skill comes with knowing when dieing is worth it.

(If you're unsure if this is meant to be sarcastic, it's okay; so am I.)

Don't worry, I laughed. :-) You have a good point, tho! Sometimes using a hero to provoke all the kobolds into you& causing you to die is worth the sacrifice. better you than your walls!

Other times, you think you're about to die, but you somehow manage to make it through the end of the wave by the skin of your teeth due to awesome maneuvering & using abilities at the right moments. When the wave is over you & everyone else is like "THAT WAS AWESOME!!"


I remember back when Temple of the Necrotic was newish, but out long enough for players to know how to build it good. I was playing as Squire DPS. They had setup for the spooky heroes to stay in the doorway (they put a wall near the spawner).

One of the spooky heroes spawn out & I go run right into the maw & start whacking away at him. Everyone else (4 player game) was telling me to jump out before I die. 

I ignored them. I kept mashing my skills and auto attacking. 
Just when everyone thought I was gonna die, I kill the spooky hero (do skeletons actually die???) and everyone was like "WHOA!!!! THAT! WAS! AWESOME!" 

To this day, that is still the best & most memorable DD2 moment I have had! I have had other fun & exciting moments. But, this stands out & still feels fresh in my mind. I don't know if that was pure skill or just dumb luck...or both! Either way, it was awesome!! I still have at least 1 of those guys remind of that  once in a while. 

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@SpiderDanX quote:

How about instead of arguing over his suggestion, you ACTUALLY add to the conversation and talk about what you think defines player skills? That would be a MUCH better use of your time & Trendy's time. 

Oh, forums are not for discussing ideas, only for shouting out your own answers to questions. Got it. Didn't realize that. Thanks for clearing that up. Maybe you can clear up something else for me: What exactly makes that comment not a waste of time, but mine is a waste of time? Is it just because you're you and I'm me so anything I say is inherently a waste of time and everything you say is inherently a good use of time?

In case you hadn't noticed, there are two threads on this forum about this exact topic. I had already posted what I thought about it on the first thread. Which, by the way, did get a like by someone at Trendy. I don't mention that to say that my feedback is the best, but you want to say that I'm wasting Trendy's time, having someone at Trendy like my post would suggest that it's not a waste of their time. So I didn't want to just copy and paste the same thing in 2 different places.

Is that acceptable, God King SpiderDanX? Or, in the future, should I post the same thing in multiple threads?

If you must know, I suppose I can summarize it here. I don't believe that DD2 is a "skill" game. I believe it is a "knowledge" game. "Skill" and "Knowledge" are different things. Joseph Anderson on YouTube does a better job explaining the difference between Skill and Knowledge than I can in his review and critique of Darkest Dungeon.

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@Zimmermann quote:

Intelligent placement does not mean intelligent tower picks. Thats my clear distinction here.

OK, but, you didn't just say "intelligent placement". You said "intelligent building placement and tower choices". Maybe you didn't mean "tower picks", but you did say "tower choices". I'm not twisting your words or taking you out of context. If "tower choices" does not mean "tower picks" then I don't know what you meant when you said "tower choices."

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:
@Zimmermann quote:

Intelligent placement does not mean intelligent tower picks. Thats my clear distinction here.

OK, but, you didn't just say "intelligent placement". You said "intelligent building placement and tower choices". Maybe you didn't mean "tower picks", but you did say "tower choices". I'm not twisting your words or taking you out of context. If "tower choices" does not mean "tower picks" then I don't know what you meant when you said "tower choices."

Sorry that was specifically to do with RNG losses, in other words having enough of what you actually need (walls/ground lane dps/AA) to illiminate RNG losses from kobold fliers, Zappers (old version), EMP kobolds, berskerers mini skelies walking wrong way down lanes etc etc. My bad that was not very clear I guess.

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I like the fact you are using surveys for feedback.  I have found the posts in this forum tend to be more caustic than informative.  

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    I only try to tell what defines player skill in hero specific way at down below.At building side what defines player skill is adapt your build for old one new tricks ,its survival of fittest. We dont tell true skillful builds until chalenging onslaught comes.I hope onslaught won't be like build first 5 round then afk 2 hours just like before trials.

Using envorimental trap correctly (like pushing lady orcs off the edge far left side lane at temple of necrotic)

Repairing walls

Resource (like blue mana) menagement

Focusing enemies who close the objectives(core, gatelocks)

Dodging enemies attacks (jumping when ogres stomps etc.)

Hitting enemies weak spot

Skillshot accuracy

Using stuns to save allies from assasins

Using chi blast to push back enemies off the cliffs
Correctly use monk's left and right click combo with dragon and crane stance
Positioning wisely when using manabomb (taking less damage)
Dont waste piercing shot with hitting shield goblins front side
Only block enemies when they attack you as squire (only block when ogre swing his mace to you )
Taunt enemies to protect your allies and walls
Using abbys fountain to heal allies not just speedboost yourself
Using knight of abbys just before assasins attack you
Using call of madness to make kobolt kill themselves
Correctly place obelisk and serpent coil
Using ice needle to oneshot flyers
Using molten core like billiards master

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In many games, skill is having that "twitch", amazing aim, predicting enemy movement, and knowledge of game mechanics. DD2 does not have any of those, except one - knowledge of game mechanics.

Skill is knowledge in DD2. Knowing what defenses are most powerful in a given situation, knowing about the best shards for each defense, and which DPS hero puts out the highest damage for your build.

Some tidbits of knowledge can only be gained by playing this game through all its stages in development - for example, when activating poisonous tips, doing so right next to other players buffs them as well. This was part of the description when it was first introduced years ago, but the description makes no mention of it now.

For me, skill in DD2 would be the ability to complete difficult content with lower stats. For example, being able to complete C7 using only C4 gear - The lower your stats and the higher the content you can beat, I would consider that a very solid method to gauge skill. Anyone can plop down WM's and beat C7, but very few people can figure out effective builds in C7 with gear less than C6.

Even then, once someone figures out a build that works, people latch onto it and quickly establish it into a meta. The only way to counteract this is by frequent balance patches. While some of Trendy's balance changes are good, many of them are not, and more importantly, they are FAR too infrequent right now.

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If You place one anti air tower I say you are a god. 

Sharing your stupid green/blue stuff is being a team player and I say that is a good  sign. 

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KNOWLEDGE 

1. Knowing which lane will need the most help 

2. What/Who are the enemies coming out of which lanes

3. Which of my defenses are doing the most damage?

4. Am i supposed to be in this chaos tier?

5. Repair Repair Repair 24/7 

6. Read Read Read theres literary a chaos description in front of your face

7. Knowing which lane will need upgrades over the other lanes

8. Knowing WHEN to assist another lane. (There are 3 enemies left in the lane youre watching and the wall is fully repaired and 70 enemies in another lane....what do you do?)

9. What is that noise and flashing thing on my map around all the red dots?!?!?!? 

10. Awareness 

11. Knowing the attacks of the enemies & what they do

12. Am i supposed to be in this chaos tier? 

13. Am i supposed to be in this chaos tier?! 

A skilled player on this game, to me, knows ALL OF THE ABOVE. Could care less what your ascension is.

Precisely why i refuse to carry anymore. Ppl get carried too much and play pretty bad 4 a pretty easy game. If your rolling with me you are required to build and to watch just one lane of your choosing. If watching over JUST 1 LANE is too much for you to handle then youve got some work to do &/or not in the appropriate chaos of your equiped gear. The best way to help the community is not by carrying & i recommend the skilled players to do as I. It also makes it a lot more fun for everybody.

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You forgot one incredibly important one:

14. Am I supposed to be in this chaos tier?

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Player skill in DD2 is in my opinion two fold.  First would be knowledge, knowing what to use, when/where to use and/or how to use defenses or abilities to the best of their abilities.  Second would be the speed in which you can act or use that knowledge.   The second is harder to show imo, because you do not have to be quick in this game normally.  However, it shows when someone in your group hits the ready button before you have laid any defense and suddenly you have a timer in which to lay all your defenses properly to get through the first wave.  Or when something goes wrong and you lose a wall or all the dps towers on a lane or both and you have to cover that.  Or when the defenses fail for whatever reason and now all of a sudden your dealing with 6 lanes of minions instead of 4 because you lost sub-objectives and now have to re-build the defense.

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@gigazelle quote:

You forgot one incredibly important one:

14. Am I supposed to be in this chaos tier?

Lool 4real man i hate wen ppl create a room for a tier they cant evn build for. The expectancy of getting carried is real within the community & Im always down to help only if u help yourself along the way. Its jus making more trash players. Guys with 300+ ascension and can barely build for c3. I mean theres no real correlation but cmon lol

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@Argonias quote:

Player skill in DD2 is in my opinion two fold.  First would be knowledge, knowing what to use, when/where to use and/or how to use defenses or abilities to the best of their abilities.  Second would be the speed in which you can act or use that knowledge.   The second is harder to show imo, because you do not have to be quick in this game normally.  However, it shows when someone in your group hits the ready button before you have laid any defense and suddenly you have a timer in which to lay all your defenses properly to get through the first wave.  Or when something goes wrong and you lose a wall or all the dps towers on a lane or both and you have to cover that.  Or when the defenses fail for whatever reason and now all of a sudden your dealing with 6 lanes of minions instead of 4 because you lost sub-objectives and now have to re-build the defense.

Yup that applies as well. Building on nimbus reach or bastile in under 70 seconds can be a challenge lol i hate wen tht happens or wen someone accidental readys up & thn the other 2 ppl jus ready kuz they think the builder finished lol DU 250/1100. The struggle 

On sum maps i intentionally let the subobj break because its easier to manage all the lanes if i can see all the walls and reach them in a couple seconds. For ex. greystone plaza

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@CobraMate quote:

-Snip-

Yup that applies as well. Building on nimbus reach or bastile in under 70 seconds can be a challenge lol i hate wen tht happens or wen someone accidental readys up & thn the other 2 ppl jus ready kuz they think the builder finished lol DU 250/1100. The struggle 

On sum maps i intentionally let the subobj break because its easier to manage all the lanes if i can see all the walls and reach them in a couple seconds. For ex. greystone plaza

Yea, I've let the sub-objective fall on Necrotic Temple or w/e, the one on the right side that buffs the skeletons.  I can build one defense at that point instead of building three separate spots.  I did that when I first started C4, to make the build simpler and easier to complete.  Also let me manage the defenses easier because they all were within sight and I could run from spot to spot quicker.

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