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MaJean

Broken weapon manufacturer kills creativity.

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Yeah just came off FlightPhoenix's game of protons, SGTs and earthshatters and another game with frost towers and sand vipers.

Both were more dangerous as far as we got some core damage but with a tweak here and there both are viable.

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@MaJean quote:

Ironically the first random pub I joined after writing this, was hosted by a kindred spirit naming the game  "trying new things" - so no FA or WM. Instead  protons and earthshatters:) That was amazing! So I´m not alone after all:)

Proton beam is another stupidly strong defense. The damage increase ratio of upgrading is the same as 20 DU defenses (100% per tier). With 110 DU and good building skills you can cover a very large area, and the whole series of nodes are treated as ONE defense for upgrading. Not to mention it can also slow (and freeze with shard). The only downside is being not able to hit air, especially the zappers in C7. 

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@Fozzie quote:

Yeah just came off FlightPhoenix's game of protons, SGTs and earthshatters and another game with frost towers and sand vipers.

Both were more dangerous as far as we got some core damage but with a tweak here and there both are viable.

Wow haven´t seen sand vipers in public.

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GL with WM on progression into future chaos or on Onslaught. Thats all I will say, I will stick to my flame auras and general conventional towers thank you :D

WM are great for farm when you are well geared, they are less effective when you are under geared or content gets much more brutal due to a lack of upgrade options.  They are however very strong in the first 2 rounds almost always.

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I agree with Majean.  The WM kills creativity and has an obviously broken shard bug.  They said they are going to work on a balance pass for each tower after release.  They are keeping track of the live statistics of each tower as well.  We should see unused towers come back to life and with it some meta changes.

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I like all the complaining about 1 single thing. dont look at flame auras and the 600 monks i see every day i never see WM just only FA from monks. but ok sure WM is broken.

Also before i go back to grinding out CTs with a FA monk : ^ ) if you dont like something then dont play it? DF2 legit iv soloed every CT so far. i only open to pub so randoms can leech off me. or for a good chat or to talk to new players. so i dont get why people are complaining about something being broken and they are tired of seeing it. you DONT have to see it. especially when you can solo everything in this game.  Lavamancers can put down a few walls and throw down some AOE and solo everything. i dont see you crying about that? or the fact that dryads can just put 50 trees down and a nimbus in each lane and solo. like i dont get why some of you are so salty about 1 tower : ^ ) Everything in this game is broken and op if you have the gear cough cough.

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If they leave WM like this, can we also get 4 shard slots for all other towers?

I would certainly like to add some gimmick shards to my builds.

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Reading this topic makes me smile and cry at the same time, cause i know what will happen.

First off my opinion:

WM is not broken and kills not creativity. It is a good decent tower which is not the strongest nor the weakest. It is set in it's power around Tier 2-3 towers. Meaning if you upgrade other towers 2-3 times they outshine WM by alot already. WM can't get stronger, and is pretty good for an early start in a round and if you want to save up mana for other defenses. But if you want more damage nearly all others are better at tier 3+.

Why is WM so used currently?

Mostly because of C7 is the chaos level against Towers in general, the emp goblins are designed to give players a hard time with towers. So ground defenses are very effective in this chaos lvl. Many people use either flames or WM because of this and this currently leads to that many other copy the system. This does not mean WM is broken nor that it kills creativity, it simple means its a tower exactly right for this chaos tier. With the range increase and strong gear players in C7 it is obviously that you can overpower lower chaos tiers so WM finds it ways downwards too, but it isnt that strong. Also the benefit generaly from aura is that you don't need to worry much about placement and about facing. This is a convinient reason and probably a underlining + for using them. Easy to place and use, you don't need to think much. This benefit is tho for all auras.

Where does the problem lies?

I think it lies in some missunderstandings on how strong defenses really are and secondly through the bug with the nodes. Funny is, this bug also applies to more defenses then just EV2 WM. There are various shards which also do that on different towers, like reflect beam. Also effects for certain towers can be bugged that way too that they stay even through swapped out. I for my part don't see the swapping as an to huge increase of power for the WM, simple because even by using it you still end up at a regular damage average of an tier 3 tower. Still this is a bug and should be fixed but it has not as much influence as many think it has.

Another issue is the huge crit scaling on auras in general, making them one of the strongest towers (this is not an WM only issue, it is on all aoe towers). But then its an issue which also goes back and forth and something you can't please all players again, so it will be rage from one side or from another.

Where would the WM succ?

Auras (including WM), succ against emp Orcs, this is dimished on all auras kinda by their huge range, so i think if the range of the emp orcs is scaling also it would be balance it out within higher difficults. Another part of the game where it would succ is long rounds map. But then this is not in yet, we are still at only 5 round maps, but then onslaught is where they would truly fall off.


With that all said, who knows how the late chaos 8+ look like, depending on the enemy spawning and on what the new enemys do, you get a totaly other "broken fix kills creativity" setups, simple because they are good.

Plis trendy buff the legion! Plis! Gobu Emoji_Goblin.pngEmoji_GobHuntress.pngEmoji_Kobalt.png

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Agree. Get rid of the cheese. However, that won't change the meta. Swapping shards is completely unnecessary to make WM dominant. I use a WM build and have never used cheese. It still wrecks everything in C7 except rollers and air.

Also, keep in mind that there will ALWAYS be a meta. It may change based on balance changes, but there will always be a more preferred/effective tower or two. This doesn't mean other towers are not viable, just that some will have a slight edge, and therefore show up in more games.

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This isn't a question of overpoweres or meta currently. This is a concern that ascension has allowed players to become higher powered than the current content. Any player that I have run into farming c7 does not need to swap node shard it is just more effective with the swap. Currently only 2 shards are needed on WM besides node and thats crit damage and power transfer. The node increase swap is normally for deadly strikes but it is not needed to efficently farm. When new difficulties get released you will start to see builds vary again dependent on the chaos theme of special mobs. C5 case and point where a combo is needed or ramsters only. So my advice is play the game to which way best suits your needs and interests until new content is released.

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I just want to see more complex tower setups be more rewarding to use. As it stands there is no benefit to make complex builds, other than more fun. When you play so many maps over and over, it will for most players result in using the most effective setup. 

Imo the WM is too strong. It frees up so much mana which you can dump into support towers which makes the difficulty way easier than it should be.

I would start by simply fixing the shard issues and remove its ability to hit air units. That would let it still be a strong defense vs ground units but would require additional support towers.

Also I think it should be given upgrade levels like any other tower. 

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@PandynatorDD quote:

I just want to see more complex tower setups be more rewarding to use. As it stands there is no benefit to make complex builds, other than more fun. When you play so many maps over and over, it will for most players result in using the most effective setup. 

Imo the WM is too strong. It frees up so much mana which you can dump into support towers which makes the difficulty way easier than it should be.

I would start by simply fixing the shard issues and remove its ability to hit air units. That would let it still be a strong defense vs ground units but would require additional support towers.

Also I think it should be given upgrade levels like any other tower. 

Pretty much nailed what I´m talking about.

Another thing that kills creativity: Being stuck doing the same 4 maps over and over. Might be one of the reasons fast builds dominate pubs.

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@MaJean quote:

Another thing that kills creativity: Being stuck doing the same 4 maps over and over. Might be one of the reasons fast builds dominate pubs.

And... y'know... Basically being forced into using only certain towers for much of the current playtime the game has to offer.

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[[94093,users]] [[21159,users]] [[19416,users]]

If you genuinely believe weapon man is OP... Please listen to these 3... Dreamanime was especially thorough in her explination... And SpecialK even gave screen shots to show people what I've been saying forever about flame auras...

@MaJean quote:

I´m not asking for nerfs, I´m asking to remove cheese and promote diversity and creativity. People can read the thread how they like, I guess.

This is extremely vague, and with your wording in the original post it was very suggestive that you just wanted weapon man's flat out nerfed. If by cheese you are refering to the shard bug... yeah, it kinda needs to be fixed, but people that use that bug mostly don't even realize that mixing in utility towers is more effective... And this will not fix the diversity issue, if it's even solvable at all. There will always be a vast majority of people that imitate success without understanding the why...

Look at how many people in this thread that genuinely think weapon mans are the strongest tower atm? Not realizing most of us just use them for farming speed, not their strength... Or how many people actually thought fissures were OP before. I'm afraid not everyone has the creativity you do, or the analytics that SpecialK does, so no matter how balanced we make towers (not that they are atm...) the community majority will just spam whatever build they see the most... regardless if it's the best. While your goal is admirable, I'm afraid your answer isn't in the weapon mans.

@strapalap quote:

This isn't a question of overpoweres or meta currently. This is a concern that ascension has allowed players to become higher powered than the current content.

I've been AFK C7 since before ascension level 100, and I played solo all the way to get there. Ascension doesn't really matter. Only Ascension you really need is crit chance, and only cause Trendy over balanced it.

@PandynatorDD quote:

I would start by simply fixing the shard issues and remove its ability to hit air units. That would let it still be a strong defense vs ground units but would require additional support towers.

Also I think it should be given upgrade levels like any other tower. 

I could accept the first nerf to hitting air. Though it would almost guarantee that weapon man's are never placed again in C7, except by people like [[83204,users]] that just wanna try weird things for fun.

I strongly disagree with the second though. I think the fact that it is basically an expensive T2.5 tower that can't be upgraded is kind of a cool unique trait to it. I'd really not like to see that go. If costs weren't directly tied to DU though, I'd of loved if the weapon man cost like 50% more mana for its current DU cost, to strengthen the concept.


As far as diversity goes though... I think our biggest issue is just our crappy DU limits. I think if monsters had like 30% more HP (NOT LEVELS TRENDY... I know what you did last time >.>) in exchange for about 50% more DU you'd see more insanely diverse builds.

PS. sorry for a long one...

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@xArcAngel quote:


As far as diversity goes though... I think our biggest issue is just our crappy DU limits. I think if monsters had like 30% more HP (NOT LEVELS TRENDY... I know what you did last time >.>) in exchange for about 50% more DU you'd see more insanely diverse builds.


I absolutely agree. I don't like the DU limit in most of the maps, I feel like it forces you to spam cheap AoE traps to kill everything. Plus, some towers cost 80/100, and they are not worth that much. I think AoE Traps should either cost more (because 30 DU for 1 Flame Aura is not enough for the range it can cover + AoE damage) or cost less but do way less damage and only act as support to other Towers. Sometimes I'd like to use stuff like Boost Auras, Earthshatters or Blaze Balloons, but i realize that the DU is not enough and i have to sell everything and go back to WMs. i feel like we are too dependent on cheap AoEs that can do well against Lady Orcs as much as Goblins.

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I can agree that the DU limits are insanely limiting on choices of defenses.  I do not think the WM is OP, FA can and does outperform WM for the DU costs.  I do think the Node swap bug if I am understanding it correctly (build seven nodes, then swap the Node Increase shard out for something like Destruction, and keep the 7 nodes) should be corrected as soon as possible.  If you swap the shard out it should correct the defenses and so the 7 nodes should drop to 3 nodes, imo the first three built or last three built would be easiest.  Alternatively it could just deconstruct the defense and refund when you swap a shard like that.  Overall though I do not think the WM should be nerfed, the shard swap should be fixxed, but the defense otherwise should not be nerfed.

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@FlightPhoenix718 quote:

I absolutely agree. I don't like the DU limit in most of the maps, I feel like it forces you to spam cheap AoE traps to kill everything. Plus, some towers cost 80/100, and they are not worth that much. I think AoE Traps should either cost more (because 30 DU for 1 Flame Aura is not enough for the range it can cover + AoE damage) or cost less but do way less damage and only act as support to other Towers. Sometimes I'd like to use stuff like Boost Auras, Earthshatters or Blaze Balloons, but i realize that the DU is not enough and i have to sell everything and go back to WMs. i feel like we are too dependent on cheap AoEs that can do well against Lady Orcs as much as Goblins.

I can only speak for myself but most of the maps in trials have decent DU limits. Generally it is low enough to challenge you to make sure you get yourself a good defense going with what you have, but also not high enough to spam tons of things. Of course some maps could do for a DU change. Don't think any actually deserve a DU reduction. Attack on Throne Room immediately comes to mind when I think about maps with too tight DU. However I do think that many defenses need a DU cost assessment. Volcano, Nimbus, Blaze Balloon, Earthshatter, Boost Aura --- these things do not deserve such high DU costs. Either buff them or reduce the amount of DU they require.

I've given my thoughts on why WM is overused before but there is no harm bringing it up again. I feel it's only natural to use the defenses that the game encourages you to use because of the presence of specific chaos mobs. In C7 specifically the ideal defense is something that can hit ground and air and cannot be disabled by a kobolt. FA and WM have everything you want for that. It's no wonder that they end up being the most used and the most favorable by players. Cheese aside.

Most of us share the intention that we just want other defenses and builds to be viable. Well I firmly believe that you cannot achieve that by nerfing what we use now. Instead I think the best solution is to alter some of the mobs. Most of the reasons you won't use a defense is because a Cybork will disable it, or a Kobolt can easily dive it, or a Geode can reflect it, etc. Sure any buff you give to a countered defense would be nice but it's also kind of a diminishing return. You'd have to give huge enough buffs so that they can overcome being disabled, absorbed, or reflected. Potentially in this situation the defense would also be OP in lower difficulties. 

It's just my thoughts that some DU reduction for some defenses and small changes to counter mobs would be the best way to achieve more diversity.

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I dont do the cheese thing for WM, it doesnt need it. To do so is just to overboard it completely. I will say the tower could benefit and be more ... how you guys keep saying .. fair? If it were ugradable just like every other atack tower. That way it starts with T1 stats(meaner weaker than it is now) and by T3(which is what other towers need to be to equal to WM's power) it has the same power it does now. Then you can upgrade it further if you have the mana to spare or need the extra dmg to deal with thicker mob counts.


I stand for the diversity too. Just we cant get any diversity cause of the 3 hard-counter mobs and trials being the only thing we can do and it forces us to play whatever map trendy picks for us.Change those things, and we should be seeing a lot of diversity as well as a very good player count rise.

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@xArcAngel quote:

As far as diversity goes though... I think our biggest issue is just our crappy DU limits. I think if monsters had like 30% more HP (NOT LEVELS TRENDY... I know what you did last time >.>) in exchange for about 50% more DU you'd see more insanely diverse builds.

PS. sorry for a long one...

I welcome more DU. But 30% more HP for 50% more DU? 

Thats crazy talk. 

Current multiplayer scaling is 75% more HP. It was pre patch 150% or so. 

So you would basically gain ALOT OF DU for LESS HP on monsters than it was pre "fix/nerf". 

30% more HP is a joke compared to 50% more DU. 

Would let you place 4 barricades per lane almost with the extra DU alone.... Assuming its a 900 DU map. 


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@Plasma quote:

I can only speak for myself but most of the maps in trials have decent DU limits. Generally it is low enough to challenge you to make sure you get yourself a good defense going with what you have, but also not high enough to spam tons of things. Of course some maps could do for a DU change. Don't think any actually deserve a DU reduction. Attack on Throne Room immediately comes to mind when I think about maps with too tight DU. However I do think that many defenses need a DU cost assessment. Volcano, Nimbus, Blaze Balloon, Earthshatter, Boost Aura --- these things do not deserve such high DU costs. Either buff them or reduce the amount of DU they require.

I am not at all saying that the DU limits atm are bad. You are correct, that with current monster HP and count, for most maps the DU limit is pretty generally low enough to challenge, without being too cruel. However, that same feel can easily be obtained with a higher DU limit so long as monsters are adjusted to go with it. I simply feel that the DU limits are too low in the sense that it feels way too hard to find room to throw in anything past a wall and your main DPS towers. Let alone the expensive ones you listed.

And as far as buffing those towers by reducing their DU... I think that's a perfectly viable solution, but ultimately one that I think would be boring compared to the alternative of upping DU and balancing around their high cost. Especially for single target towers, that frankly struggle to have a purpose because we're out of DU by the time we put down the AOE towers for the trash mobs. But I've always been biased towards more tower defense aspects for DD2, so I suppose that is my own opinion.

@PandynatorDD quote:

I welcome more DU. But 30% more HP for 50% more DU? 

Thats crazy talk. 

Current multiplayer scaling is 75% more HP. It was pre patch 150% or so. 

So you would basically gain ALOT OF DU for LESS HP on monsters than it was pre "fix/nerf". 

30% more HP is a joke compared to 50% more DU. 

Would let you place 4 barricades per lane almost with the extra DU alone.... Assuming its a 900 DU map. 

I'll admit, I didn't put a whole lot of thought into those numbers, and looking at it more, I can see you are entirely right lol. I was trying to be conservative in my numbers (always preferring to end up too easy and increase difficulty later), but I think I definitely undershot too much.

When I consider the fact that currently walls take up about 20% of the DU per lane, a 50% DU buff really ends up being about a 65% DPS buff... So maybe 60% more HP? Either way, I was more supporting the principle than my random numbers.

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I'd play more if DU limits went up a bit and if more maps were available. It's boring to build the same thing over and over. Tight limits make it too hard to play around with different builds. Spending a lot of time making compromises and trying to squeeze every penny feels too much like real life.

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I really would like to play more with dryad but the DU cost for her towers are way too much.

I don't really think WM shard is an issue. Currently there is nothing left for me besides gold and medal pharming. And I got really tired of building. I really appreciate it that there is a tower who is doing decent enough damage to do the job without any maintenance. In order to speedpharm wm is a nice tool. If you don't want to play with those towers than don't build them. For me it's sadly the case that I mostly gotten lazy in this game. I don't wanna build, don't wanna maintenance. Why is that?!

Not entirely sure but I think there are some points which drove me down that road. Some assumptions:

==> playing the same maps 5-6 times in a row

==> limited amount of maps available for c7

==> rewards for c7 are not good enough in my opinion so I want to finish it as fast as possible (no maintenance is saving a lot of time) in order to pharm faster.



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Agree with you Simon I'm very close to doing daily and log off territory.

Incursions need to drop loot properly and a shard for that Chaos tier, then people could add those to reply. As they are harder by definition they could drop loot in the higher range for that tier.

Please add at least another 2 maps to each rotation. We know you are working on Onslaught 2.0 but how hard would it be to patch in a map or two?

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What I don't understand is why they changed the weapon manufacturer to overlap with exactly what the flame aura does. It has changed from an amazing concept of a defense whose pickup needed some tuning to a bland AoE defense with the pickup as a legacy afterthought.

I really liked the original design of the weapon manufacturer - the pickup just needed a huge buff to make it worth spending DU on. I would not mind the nuke or mega death laser one-shotting almost everything, including ogres.

Everyone's opinion is going to be different on the subject, but I disagree with the direction they've taken the WM and I would much rather have it go back to its roots of being a pickup defense and not flame aura 2.0. 

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Yep mega death laser and the nuke need a real looking at, as you say on shotting ogres would make them actually a tactical use.

Trouble is if they get adjusted down people would then just spam FAs or fissures as was mentioned.

If you restricted people to x number of a defence type per map, would that be any better, and that was a conversation for early access, not now.

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