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Hom-Sha-Bom

DD2 Dies On June 20th, Or Am I Crazy?

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@ram1024 quote:

just think they would have ended up with a better game had they simply sat some DD1 players down and asked them "what do you enjoy about this game"

I don't necessarily agree with that, especially depending on what you consider a DD1 player.  I played the game, but quit after breaking into NM because it was just a wholly unpleasant experience that I don't care to go into detail over.  I bought DDE when it came out, and enjoyed it significantly more than the original, but when they abandoned it I had to drop it as well (I ended up having more hours spent in the short time I had DDE than the entirety of DD1's lifespan).  Then comes DD2, it's been a pendulum for me.  Some patches I've loved, others I've hated.  Where we sit now leaves me incredibly optimistic about the future of it, despite it being rough around the edges (to put it lightly).

But I wouldn't be considered a "DD1" player.  And frankly, a lot of the things the traditional DD1 players say are almost completely opposite of what I would find fun.  If DD2 just did the things DD1 players wanted, then it would only appeal to DD1 players.  What DD2 is working towards now is far more accessible to both DD1 players and people who never played it.  I don't think that's a bad thing.

Yes, there are definitely things that need to be changed, there are plenty of things that DD1 needed to change but didn't.  Even though the community team working on DD1 is incredibly talented and work very hard, their focus is on what current DD1 players want, not what players who left it like I did want.  It's not intended to be an insult to them mind you, far from it, but what I'm getting at is that it's just one group of players that could potentially like DD2.

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@ram1024 quote:

we'd have endless survival modes, pure strategy, a huge stable of powerful pets giving a wide variety of utility, a giant selection of weapons whose effects dramatically influence your playstyles, trading/shops/economy, super rare accessories that customize your character's appearance

i mean really, who told them that the players don't want lightsabers, chainswords, machine guns, and space blasters?

and treadmill giraffes

and freaking GIANT hammers :P

Completely agree with this. Many awesome things about DD1 are missing from DD2, and would have a dramatic impact if they made a return. I especially relate to the comment about weapons. They have tried to make cool weapons in DD2, but haven't come close to the coolness factor of DD1 weapons.

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Well said, Val.  Sometimes you hear the "please re-skin DD1" type conversation.  I think overall we just want the game to be the quality we know it can be as we DD is something we love and therefore are passionate about seeing it become great and not mediocre.

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@Valthejean quote:

quit after breaking into NM 

that's the thing.  nightmare was basically DD1's version of "here comes the hard counters!"

spiders were basically the same thing as assassins in DD2.  they keep you from being useful on the map.  djinns are basically siege rollers if you don't go deal with them you lose. sharkens you have to kill before they get to your walls, sounds a lot like how you can't let kobolts near your dps towers :P

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@ram1024 quote:


@Valthejean quote:

quit after breaking into NM 

that's the thing.  nightmare was basically DD1's version of "here comes the hard counters!"

spiders were basically the same thing as assassins in DD2.  they keep you from being useful on the map.  djinns are basically siege rollers if you don't go deal with them you lose. sharkens you have to kill before they get to your walls, sounds a lot like how you can't let kobolts near your dps towers :P

The only hard counter in dd1 was the stupid elemental immune which made every one spam harpoons.

I could afk most maps in dd1 with correct placement after maxing everything in like wave 2 and an occasional jester map heal.


The interesting/fun part was getting past wave 1 and being able to build everything in time. 

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@Pegazul quote:

The only hard counter in dd1 was the stupid elemental immune which made every one spam harpoons

did you quit playing before they added the ability to strip immunities or something? :P

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@ram1024 quote:


@Pegazul quote:

The only hard counter in dd1 was the stupid elemental immune which made every one spam harpoons

did you quit playing before they added the ability to strip immunities or something? :P

Probably.

I think strength drain might have stripped it. I don't remember. Its been a while :) but pretty much all builds used harpoons and archers when i quit.

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@Pegazul quote:


@ram1024 quote:


@Pegazul quote:

The only hard counter in dd1 was the stupid elemental immune which made every one spam harpoons

did you quit playing before they added the ability to strip immunities or something? :P

Probably.

I think strength drain might have stripped it. I don't remember. Its been a while :) but pretty much all builds used harpoons and archers when i quit.

Strength Drain Aura, Magic Blockade and Darkness Trap stripped Elemental Affinities. Strength Drain Aura, in the DD1 end game, were pretty much a staple in every build.

Harpoons, for a huge amount of time (and probably now) are the strongest tower due to their incredible AoE and constant damage. They could hit multiple ogres at the same time, making them invaluable. Fireball Towers could also fit this role, but in DD1, infinite piercing was more efficient than AoE splash.

Summoner Towers (such as Archer) made the best walls, because they can be built to self repair, debuff and do incredible single target damage all in one (Archers and Sorc did tons of damage, Sorc did AoE Summoner Tower Heals, Spiders debuffed enemies attacking the walls... aka Ogres). In addition, they had their own resource separate from normal building (they used SU as opposed to DU, which was exclusive to summoner towers). Summoner was the hands down best hero in DD1.


...Just sayin'. ;p

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Lol yeah buff beam crammed full of archers with 1 mage standing on a spider used to be the wall meta xD

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From Hom Sha Bom 4 24

Not interested. Can't take any more of it. Uninstalled. Peace out. Rejoice, some of you.

I'm not sure what I'll do with my time now. Maybe get a decent amount of sleep? Maybe go outside more? Maybe get some exercise? Not likely. But my quality of life can only improve by no longer clicking that big magenta "PLAY" button any more.



So are you done with the game or not?  If so, let it go and move on. 

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I mean, you can say your done with a game, but if you truly like it, you will always eventually come back.  Like a lot of us did, before the loot update, we left and then saw it had a big update that changed how things work, so we come back to check it out and then a big announcement like the release hits shortly after.  Of course, you would show concern having returned after a break and seeing all the bugs that were there when you left and TE announcing they are releasing the game from EA. 


I mean, I've had a love/hate relationship with DD2 so far, love some things, hate others.  Hence the reason I take breaks from it, sometimes for weeks, sometimes for months.  When I see something big happening or just happened on DD2, I come back and see what's what.  So far, the shards have been my biggest disappointment when they released.  Took me all of 2 days to decide I didn't like the system and I complained about it, and then left.  When the loot was redone I came back and for the most part I didn't like what had happened.  I liked legends having unique modifiers that made them worth getting.  Now that is coming back with the release to I am hopeful.  I guess tbh, most of the recent changes from when they introduced the chaos stuff I have not been interested in or disliked in some way.  So while I am hopeful they can turn it around...I don't expect it.  That isn't saying I plan to quit.

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@paradiselost quote:

From Hom Sha Bom 4 24

Not interested. Can't take any more of it. Uninstalled. Peace out. Rejoice, some of you.

I'm not sure what I'll do with my time now. Maybe get a decent amount of sleep? Maybe go outside more? Maybe get some exercise? Not likely. But my quality of life can only improve by no longer clicking that big magenta "PLAY" button any more.



So are you done with the game or not?  If so, let it go and move on. 

Yeah, it's true. I did post that on 4/25. And I did uninstall the game on 4/25. And I haven't played it since. Haven't even reinstalled it. But it is conceivable that Trendy could Make Dungeon Defenders Great Again, so I check back periodically to see if any of the issues have been fixed. What's wrong with that?


So far the only thing that has happened was a questionable loot update. Not nearly enough to get me back in the game.


And if I was someone who knew nothing about Dungeon Defenders and just stumbled across it on Steam after its official launch, I would be gone forever and never look back. To keep new players you have to make a good first impression. If I didn't care about Dungeon Defenders at all, I would never give it another chance. Not everyone is going to give it a second look after a bad launch.

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I'll (politely) blow off some hot air, since that seems like what this thread is for.

The entire creative team at Trendy is outright amazing. The sounds, the animations, the visuals, the world-building, I am constantly floored by the high quality of stuff they put out. Consider me even jealous that they have such a talented creative team; what I would give to have those kinds of resources at my disposal!

However, the design and game mechanics in DD2 is missing something - that secret sauce that makes it so much fun to play that was present in DD1. I've done my best over the 3.5 years to give Trendy feedback on what that is, and a fraction of it has been implemented, but its still not quite there yet. It's still missing that scalability factor that enables us to walk the fine line between challenge, progression, and engagement.

I am very cautiously optimistic about DD2's launch. I will be genuinely surprised if we hit 10k concurrent players, and I will also be genuinely surprised if we retain any of that initial spike of players. However, that's not going to stop me from continuing to support them and their efforts to make an enjoyable game, and I truly hope Trendy lasts long enough to put the game in a state to where it consistently gets overwhelmingly positive reviews.

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I feel like the spirit of what OP Hom-Sham meant by "dd2-dies at launch", which I'll agree was overly negative hyperbole, is that the best possible opportunity for growth will be spent and ultimately not met with success. In that regard I think Hom is right. The game has many issues that average players will be turned away by. I'm not talking about the hardcore few of you who have overlooked them for ages or have no problem turning a blind eye.

Simply put launching your game is your first and best opportunity to capture people's attention. I had a mentor years ago that would say "First impressions are lasting impressions". When you're in the F2P market this is even more so true because there is no initial investment that keeps a player feeling tied to playing. If their early impressions are bad then it is even easier to walk away and never look back. This is why launching now is a mistake and may actually spell doom for DD2's future.

The fact of the matter is anyone posting here cares enough about the game to be here and be participating in the discussion. Say what you will about everyone in this thread but I think everyone here wishes the game could succeed. If they didn't they would have moved on to something else and wouldn't spend their time here posting their thoughts, whether they be positive or negative with regards to the outlook of the future.

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@gigazelle quote:

I'll (politely) blow off some hot air, since that seems like what this thread is for.

The entire creative team at Trendy is outright amazing. The sounds, the animations, the visuals, the world-building, I am constantly floored by the high quality of stuff they put out. Consider me even jealous that they have such a talented creative team; what I would give to have those kinds of resources at my disposal!

However, the design and game mechanics in DD2 is missing something - that secret sauce that makes it so much fun to play that was present in DD1. I've done my best over the 3.5 years to give Trendy feedback on what that is, and a fraction of it has been implemented, but its still not quite there yet. It's still missing that scalability factor that enables us to walk the fine line between challenge, progression, and engagement.

I am very cautiously optimistic about DD2's launch. I will be genuinely surprised if we hit 10k concurrent players, and I will also be genuinely surprised if we retain any of that initial spike of players. However, that's not going to stop me from continuing to support them and their efforts to make an enjoyable game, and I truly hope Trendy lasts long enough to put the game in a state to where it consistently gets overwhelmingly positive reviews.

Thank you for your post, I would really like to echo most of what you are saying particularly in regards to taking a second despite the negativity of this post to recognize the hard work and love the Trendy team has put into this game. There ARE good, great even things about the game. 

That being said I think releasing in its current state will not be met with success as there are just too many problems. The console experience is so awful I honestly don't know where to begin. If I had to I would say the multitude of sound bugs, including amidst them the inability to reliably mute the game sounds to mitigate all of the sound bugs or downright awful decisions. Who ever thought it was a good idea to create weapons with persistent sound files that BLARE at the player 24/7. Take for example the Infernal Combuster monk polearm with it's incessant piston noises "CUSH KOOOSH CUSHHH KOSSSH CUUSHHH KOOSHHHH" like a frantic mechanical heartbeating in your ear, to frost weapons that play what seem to be wind chimes producing this annoying ringing layer of sound that sits on top of anything else that's going on. And since you can't reliably mute the game sounds if you don't like them, too bad you're stuck with them! But that's intentional, that's not even speaking to the volume bugs which cause the volume to jump between very quiet and incredibly loud as you move around maps. Moving away from sound how about the frequent frame drops that can cause stuttering that can even cause players to run off maps and die, left to watch all of their hard work be for naught as their core is destroyed due to the resulting death timer. Just to throw out a few examples of why I believe new players will be turned away.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:
@paradiselost quote:

From Hom Sha Bom 4 24

Not interested. Can't take any more of it. Uninstalled. Peace out. Rejoice, some of you.

I'm not sure what I'll do with my time now. Maybe get a decent amount of sleep? Maybe go outside more? Maybe get some exercise? Not likely. But my quality of life can only improve by no longer clicking that big magenta "PLAY" button any more.



So are you done with the game or not?  If so, let it go and move on. 

Yeah, it's true. I did post that on 4/25. And I did uninstall the game on 4/25. And I haven't played it since. Haven't even reinstalled it. But it is conceivable that Trendy could Make Dungeon Defenders Great Again, so I check back periodically to see if any of the issues have been fixed. What's wrong with that?


So far the only thing that has happened was a questionable loot update. Not nearly enough to get me back in the game.


And if I was someone who knew nothing about Dungeon Defenders and just stumbled across it on Steam after its official launch, I would be gone forever and never look back. To keep new players you have to make a good first impression. If I didn't care about Dungeon Defenders at all, I would never give it another chance. Not everyone is going to give it a second look after a bad launch.

Makes sense to me  

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Everyone is saying how bad the game is for new players and all that, but have you guys thought back to your progression into the game first? I joined after knowing what dd1 was, having played up to te 5th map at a friends house and enjoying it, and when I saw dd2 for free I immediately grabbed it and jumped in. The tutorial was in the same place it is now, the inventory Was much  wose, and the passive system was an endless grind. Now, there was a lot to learn, and it took me 4 months to beat nm4. But I was never discouraged about the state of information - maybe the fact that I love to research things, to problem solve, but I watched juices tutorials on life root and and made it to nm4. Feeling amazing about myself, the grind I had completed.


Yes, this game needs some more ui tweaks and qual change, but to me, dd2 is about figuring out how to do things, not just having the game tell you how. It isn't a download and play right to the finish game, you actually need to try, fail, try again, tweak your build, get better gear, learn though YouTube and guides, not just blaze though the the game like its nothing. (Like the pdt fase right before all these players quit). I didn't enjoy the pdt phase, I didn't really do anything except get hyped and play the game more when chaos was annouced. If I was to leave the game it was then, there was no point to playing a broken game where someone who had played for 5 hours could solo the highest difficulty with the right luck and help. Now, at least there is a challenge and people start leaving. I just don't get it. 


This is something of a rant as well, please forgive me and any spelling mistakes(mobile ftl) :P

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The only thing that is driving me away sometimes, is the community. I can understand the flaws of the game, because it is made by people. When you put a goal you cannot reach it within a day, you try and you fail and you fail again. But you get up every morning and try again. This is what the game is for me, an ongoing process. It will never be perfect, but if you enjoy it you play it.

However as a community being a ***, is something I cannot forgive or look past. 

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@MamaTata quote:

Not triggered by you (i'm sure you are a great person, sincerely), but with posts like this. It is just stupid and rude towards developers and the rest of community to use such heavy words.  Game is beautiful... if you don't appreciate what developers are doing with it you should move away, simple as that. Cheers!

@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:
blah-blah

I think you're very wrong here. Everyone that plays this (or any) game is entitled to give their opinion on what they think is wrong and right about the game. Just leaving the developers to their own devices is a terrible idea - because they often don't experience the game the same way the player base does. This is very much evidenced by the complete overhauls this game has had already - pretty much all the result of players giving feedback about the wrongs and rights of the game, or how they feel it could be improved.

In this day and age feedback is pretty integral. It is why Diablo will continue to crumble to dust and Path of Exile will continue being one of the most profitable free games on the market. Blizzard does not listen, GGG does nothing but listen.

If the solution to players not liking what developers were doing was to just "move away" then this game itself would have pretty much died quite a while back. 

Yes, DD2 is currently not a bad game. But in my opinion it still has a long way to go. There will almost certainly be a lot of people put off of the game forever if it launches with this current state. I'm personally hoping there a lot of fixes and changes that go up with the launch.

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Diablo is a good game, but you're absolutely right in that they don't listen to the playerbase AT ALL

i think the real problem is they don't even listen to stuff about their game internally, like their own metrics.  like they HAVE to know which sets are underperforming and useless but you get season after season of neglect

just like how dryad defenses are buggy as hell and huntress traps are pretty much garbage >:|

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