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Hom-Sha-Bom

DD2 Dies On June 20th, Or Am I Crazy?

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In my experience, nothing signals the death of a game quite like being released before it's ready. FF14 is the only game I can think of that was able to survive a terrible launch and come back from it. All other examples I can think of just crawled off into a cave to die a lonely slow and painful death due to a bad launch.


Does anyone honestly believe this game is in a good place for launch?


"Early Access" can no longer be used as an excuse for plethora of bugs, balance issues, non-intuitive game systems, and patches like the one that was released on May 26th. When a game is "Launched" it is held to a higher standard than a game that is "Early Access". And I personally don't have confidence in Trendy's ability to fix as many bugs as possible in a patch before the 20th. Patches often introduce even worse bugs than they were meant to fix, for example, the patch to fix gear that was rolling with slightly lower stats than intended ended up turning AoE towers into single (or even zero) target. Or how about all the times we were told that stuck bosses were fixed, and yet it was still happening?

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Nice positive post

I am hopeful that incursions coming back will be a step towards having all maps back in all tiers. I would seriously like to play Wyvern Den C7, what's harbinger like.

I'd like Trendy to give us the choice on the map rotation in all tiers.

20th is obviously the date they have fixed with the Xbox launch.

Surely you want things to progress, it would be nice to see lots and lots of games instead of just a few each tier.

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Yes, I do want things to progress. But I don't think this is the way to make that happen. Releasing a game in a poor state usually does not end well, and 99% of the games i've followed have shown that to be the case. I think it is natural to use information from the past to try to predict the future.


And yeah, of course you want incursions back. Of course you want map choice. Everyone wants those things. The fact that everyone has been asking for those things ever since Trendy took them away and they havent given it back is kind of my point here. The game is not in a good place and a bad launch could permanently tarnish it for many people.


It's not a positive or a negative post. It's a warning of what we all know is true with so many games and yet developers and publishers constantly seem to ignore. It's short sighted. It's "we need a revenue boost right now" instead of "we want this game to succeed long term".

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YAY, hyperbole \o/. Worst part, is that your hyperbole detracts from otherwise useful post content.

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Not to be negative but the PS4 version needs some serious love. When you play alone frames drop to about 10 per second and when in public match it is not an exaggeration to say to 1 per second. I seriously love this game and want it to be a hit. But especially in console players where our focus span is a lot shorter than pc gamers, and a lot of games are judged by the first minutes of the games, I see it being a potential problem. I surely trust in Trendy and that they will deliver, it is just that I wouldn't let reach the final days to patch such major issues especially if you do not have enough time after to test them.


Anyway I am hoping for the best, I enjoy and love the game even with all it's problems I just do not want it to be shredded by reviewers who do not know how deep this game is and what ti can do.


I might be a bit more melodramatic and attached to this game due to DD1, but it is a game that's suits me.


Hope to a great launch.

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I don't know about it being the death but I also am a bit skeptical at this point. I mean there is still time to fix things I suppose. However things that i notice that I still bother me (and these maybe fixed on this next patch) what do the icons under the mystics health bar represent or the one that just popped up under the monks? How will it be explained to a new player what those mean?

So we are ok with the lavamancer's ability points being tied to DU and potentially preventing players from using him effectively in multiplayer?  

are pets going to be worth while addition or just a semi useful cosmetic?

Is balance where you want it to be really? I mean really looked at the base shards stats?

Those are just the latest things in addition to the already talked about bugs from other posts.

It might not seem like much but like the OP these are things that should be expected from a FULL release game. There was just two major updates and not much time has passed.  

I would have thought a cool release would have been this December 4th on the anniversary of the Pre-alpha release. That would give you some time to focus on bugs and balance now that major dev is done.


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Ill be honest here and say that the only bug I experience often that annoys me is stuck rollers. Yes a mini map vanishes from time to time, or i switch heroes once in a blue moon and get a funny glitch where i become two heroes... but on a daily bases of playing a lot.. i cant say I experience many bugs.

I know others with less gear will experience wall climbing as probably their main gripe, then stuck rollers but its not as bad as people are making out in my view. 

I have been contributing quite a lot to the bug reporting website, so I am not blind to many many bugs, but as far as experiencing them and being frustrated by them I cant say its that bad at all right now, with the caveat of the 2 main ones I mentioned above.

Do I agree with all the design choices? No.. but that doesn't make it a bad game just a slightly different game to my romantic  and very subjective view of what DD2 should be.

Sure the concept of hard counters might need changing and pet collection and leveling as well as their influence to gear/game play needs improve (pet abilities are pretty decent), but other then that and a few other things I am pretty happy with the game to be "released".

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I still prefer the pre-Trials game to the current incarnation we have. But I put that mostly down to choice and simplicity. The choice of maps and game styles and the simplicity of gearing up.

That said, I don't know the roadmap for the game and whether or not I will like future content. iamisom has already stated that incursions are coming back soon so at least one of my conditions for fun will be met.

I really don't see why so much stock is being put into the game being "released" by players.

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You need a long vacation [[131681,users]]-Sha-whatever.... focus your attention on something that makes you feel good inside. Bon voyage warrior.png





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@malf quote:

YAY, hyperbole \o/. Worst part, is that your hyperbole detracts from otherwise useful post content.

Actually, it's not hyperbole. I'm being honest and sincere. This game is not in what I would consider a releasable state and that is never a good thing. When people see on steam, ps4, or xbox that this game has launched and they give it a try and they experience all the issues that we've been pointing out for months that haven't been fixed, they will turn away from the game.

And sure some of them will give it a try later on if these issues are fixed, but many people will just move on and never look back. You only get 1 shot at launch and if it gives everyone terrible first impression, the game is doomed to fail. I am not being hyperbolic at all.


@MamaTata quote:

You need a long vacation Hom-Sha-whatever.... focus your attention on something that makes you feel good inside. Bon voyage warrior.png


Uhh... OK? That doesn't even make sense. If you think all I'm doing is *** posting on this forum then you need to focus your attention somewhere else because this is the only thing I've posted in over a week and before that the last thing I posted was letting someone know that Shielding Guard is not a required shard for blockades. If seeing my name triggers you so bad, perhaps it's you that needs to take a break? Or at least do some self-reflecting and figure out what the real reason is.

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i agree with hom-sha really. The game is not ready for a launch. Launching now with as many issues as it has will just destroy a lot of their potential playerbase to be. Cause like hom-sha said, people wil lsee launch, try it, find all the horrible issues with it, and bail, a good bit of them never bothering to look back.

And the launch details dont give enough details to be secure about it. What I seen they are doing with launch said absolutely nothing about some of the bigger issues. Like Hard-Counters, badly imbalanced shards, imbalanced towers/tower upgrades(poor ramster only getting 8% stronger per upgrade T^T), and other things.

The only, posibly, "possibly" good thing the launch is doing, is bringing back a bit of choice to players by bringing in incursion. If the incursions are done right, provide an alternative way to progress, at least gear wise, then at least we FINALLY get some of our choice brought back and we get to pick what map we get to play, to an extent mind you but it's something at least. We've essentially lost all choice as a player, from hard-counters to play modes we dont really get to decide what we can do, the game does it for us. We need our choices back, our exploration back.

The bug fixes they are doing, could be nice, if they get them fixed, cause they said they are working on some of the big ones, like wall ignoring mobs, which will be nice to have that fixed finally. It still doesnt fix some of the bigger, core mechanics of the game that will run people off though.

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@rawrifficus quote:

The game has been officially launched since they started selling gems. This is just another patch.

Yup, there will be a small player spike that will wear off a week later and then its back to the usual.

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@geo981010 quote:


-Snip-

The Steam Summer sale is supposed to start on the 22nd, so maybe Trendy hurried the release date for that? Having it newly released and presumably with some new DLC could get some new blood, and I really do hope it works out.

I mean, what does it matter that the steam summer sale is happening at all?  DD2 is F2P.  Not sure how you can have a sale on something F2P...

That being said, I don't think they are going to release new DLC within two days of their 'launch'...if they do it's kind of a blatant money grab...which I would probably be one to go for lol.

Also to throw it out there...I really do hope it works out well for them.  I have been a fan of Dungeon Defenders forever now and want them to succeed as much as the next DD fan.  I am just really worried about why they are rushing the release (although 2 years is not exactly rushing) with so many bugs and major issues still in the game.

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Not triggered by you (i'm sure you are a great person, sincerely), but with posts like this. It is just stupid and rude towards developers and the rest of community to use such heavy words.  Game is beautiful... if you don't appreciate what developers are doing with it you should move away, simple as that. Cheers!

@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:
blah-blah

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I dont think the game is gonna do so well releasing so soon.. there is many issues ive posted myself.. (but then declined by ConnorM for some reason even tho Javahawk requested i put a bug report on one of them...) Bug reporting in this game has kind of turned me off it..

I really hope the release does go well for Trendy.. i'd hate to see them disapear.. ive had many years of fun playing DD1/DD2 and some of the guys are really nice to chat with... the few chats ive had with Blacksmith on Discord he's got some really good ideas that are coming for the game and i really think some of those need to be implemented before going a full release

Overall tho i really think we will see a small spike in players then it will drop off to the regular hardcore players and we wont get much at all... The game is too unfriendly to new players.. without proper tutorials (in game) and better explanation of the mechanics we just will NOT hold new players... till those systems are in place it should never get a full release..


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@LJMjollnir quote:


Overall tho i really think we will see a small spike in players then it will drop off to the regular hardcore players and we wont get much at all... The game is too unfriendly to new players.. without proper tutorials (in game) and better explanation of the mechanics we just will NOT hold new players... till those systems are in place it should never get a full release..


This is exactly what I was talking about. You go full release but there are many portions of the game that all the pre-alpha/EA players take for granted as understanding them but are not explained in any way shape or form.  There are a lack of in game details about skills and towers for new players to learn from. Things show up on screen and you have no idea what they mean or why they are there. Maybe it's as simple as turning the old grumpy guy into a interactive person that gives you tips or plays a short video. For example you talk to him and a gui opens that lets you select a topic you want tips on, say combos. Then a short example clip about two towers types working together. This way it's an optional resource players can use if needed.

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The game won't die, it's not "dead" now, it won't be dead when it releases. I doubt there will be a huge influx of players, but releasing the game and removing the "early access" tag certainly won't do any harm.

Basically, it's a small game developed by a small company, releasing the game won't do much to help or hurt it.

Doomsaying like this certainly won't help, though.

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@TMTrainer quote:

The game won't die, it's not "dead" now, it won't be dead when it releases. I doubt there will be a huge influx of players, but releasing the game and removing the "early access" tag certainly won't do any harm.

Basically, it's a small game developed by a small company, releasing the game won't do much to help or hurt it.

Doomsaying like this certainly won't help, though.

Wrong. It can do A LOT of harm. You are pushing the product to the door and saying "this is our vision and we are happy with this" which is going to turn a lot of people off. It is also a lot of pressure to push the game out the door no matter what. This all likely stems from them making a deal with Microsoft to make a few dollars and I will bet you it is going to end up costing them a lot more than the few dollars are worth.

How do you also call Trendy that small of a company either? They would easily be considered mid-sized And  how does that matter to any end consumer who is not invested? You mention team size on scope of a game not quality.

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I am reminded of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. The game had amazing potential, but it was rushed out the door before it was ready. A lot of the issues were fixed many months after the game was released, but by then the overwhelming majority of players got sick of the problems plaguing the game and never gave it a second chance. It quickly went into maintenance mode and hung around clinging to life support hemorrhaging money for some years and now it no longer exists in any form.


This post is not stupid or rude. It is a warning about what is likely going to happen based on real-world past experiences, and clearly I'm not the only one worried about it.

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@Infernotez quote:


@TMTrainer quote:

The game won't die, it's not "dead" now, it won't be dead when it releases. I doubt there will be a huge influx of players, but releasing the game and removing the "early access" tag certainly won't do any harm.

Basically, it's a small game developed by a small company, releasing the game won't do much to help or hurt it.

Doomsaying like this certainly won't help, though.

Wrong. It can do A LOT of harm. You are pushing the product to the door and saying "this is our vision and we are happy with this" which is going to turn a lot of people off. It is also a lot of pressure to push the game out the door no matter what. This all likely stems from them making a deal with Microsoft to make a few dollars and I will bet you it is going to end up costing them a lot more than the few dollars are worth.

How do you also call Trendy that small of a company either? They would easily be considered mid-sized And  how does that matter to any end consumer who is not invested? You mention team size on scope of a game not quality.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time arguing this, I could spend hours trying to debate this so I'm just going to leave this here.

In a day and age where every developer and their dog puts their game in 'early access', and 'closed' or 'open' and 'alpha' or 'beta' as a buzzwords to attract attention to their game, these terms have become nothing more than either a) "we know it's barely playable, but come play and spend money on gems/coins/tickets/currency/founder'sedition then come back in 5 years when what you played is unrecognizable" or b) "we know our game is practically done, but hey, early access with exclusive benefits has a good ring to it".

If DD2 sinks because they released a premature game, then congrats, they did pretty much everything wrong. There are numerous issues that coincide with dozens of other 'released' games that ultimately failed. I unironically see tons of parallels to the reason why DD2 is failing... with Firefall (wow, who remembers THAT game!?).

The reason why I say that releasing the game now won't hurt them is because the damage is already done. They have a deadline that they have to meet and they probably won't make the bug fixing and balance cut. Going from Early Access -> Live means almost nothing now-a-days, unless you have a large following. The damage was done when they gave themselves a timeline to release the game (which probably existed in the development pipeline as early as when they announced Trials). They never had a clear and concise design plan for DD2. Synergies and no Synergies, Passives and No Passives, Map balance and Mob Design and How much can we control and How much freedom we want to give the players. They dug themselves a hole when they conceived the development timeline for trials and release and then they didn't give themselves enough time to dig themselves out of it. They never stuck to their guns and just balanced the game when it was fun, they constantly flipped entire balance tables when balancing and never got the game to some place healthy where they could build from.

tl;dr It won't do harm, because the harm has already been done even if the wounds haven't fully shown themselves yet. I promise you they had the 'June 20th' date probably before they released Trials and they just didn't make the deadlines and rushed the game. It's happened so many times now, it's a story that falls a mostly deaf ears.

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@TMTrainer quote:


@Infernotez quote:


@TMTrainer quote:

The game won't die, it's not "dead" now, it won't be dead when it releases. I doubt there will be a huge influx of players, but releasing the game and removing the "early access" tag certainly won't do any harm.

Basically, it's a small game developed by a small company, releasing the game won't do much to help or hurt it.

Doomsaying like this certainly won't help, though.

Wrong. It can do A LOT of harm. You are pushing the product to the door and saying "this is our vision and we are happy with this" which is going to turn a lot of people off. It is also a lot of pressure to push the game out the door no matter what. This all likely stems from them making a deal with Microsoft to make a few dollars and I will bet you it is going to end up costing them a lot more than the few dollars are worth.

How do you also call Trendy that small of a company either? They would easily be considered mid-sized And  how does that matter to any end consumer who is not invested? You mention team size on scope of a game not quality.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time arguing this, I could spend hours trying to debate this so I'm just going to leave this here.

In a day and age where every developer and their dog puts their game in 'early access', and 'closed' or 'open' and 'alpha' or 'beta' as a buzzwords to attract attention to their game, these terms have become nothing more than either a) "we know it's barely playable, but come play and spend money on gems/coins/tickets/currency/founder'sedition then come back in 5 years when what you played is unrecognizable" or b) "we know our game is practically done, but hey, early access with exclusive benefits has a good ring to it".

If DD2 sinks because they released a premature game, then congrats, they did pretty much everything wrong. There are numerous issues that coincide with dozens of other 'released' games that ultimately failed. I unironically see tons of parallels to the reason why DD2 is failing... with Firefall (wow, who remembers THAT game!?).

The reason why I say that releasing the game now won't hurt them is because the damage is already done. They have a deadline that they have to meet and they probably won't make the bug fixing and balance cut. Going from Early Access -> Live means almost nothing now-a-days, unless you have a large following. The damage was done when they gave themselves a timeline to release the game (which probably existed in the development pipeline as early as when they announced Trials). They never had a clear and concise design plan for DD2. Synergies and no Synergies, Passives and No Passives, Map balance and Mob Design and How much can we control and How much freedom we want to give the players. They dug themselves a hole when they conceived the development timeline for trials and release and then they didn't give themselves enough time to dig themselves out of it. They never stuck to their guns and just balanced the game when it was fun, they constantly flipped entire balance tables when balancing and never got the game to some place healthy where they could build from.

tl;dr It won't do harm, because the harm has already been done even if the wounds haven't fully shown themselves yet. I promise you they had the 'June 20th' date probably before they released Trials and they just didn't make the deadlines and rushed the game. It's happened so many times now, it's a story that falls a mostly deaf ears.

That was the proper argument to be had there. I guess my point was fixing the game was their only hope of going anywhere and now they are just going nowhere fast. The only hope they have is if by some miracle some random foreign market latches on and has lots of money to spend(not likely). I also suggest all who even think of dropping a cent on this game going forward to play until chaos 1 at a minimum before spending.

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The only thing I can see making this game ready for any launch (going from alpha/early access, skipping beta, to full release) is the horrible imbalance of towers at the moment.  Completely horrible.

Bugs I have run into very few.  Character models invisible.  Map disappears.  

Worst part of DD2 is the towers.


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@TMTrainer quote:

The game won't die, it's not "dead" now, it won't be dead when it releases. I doubt there will be a huge influx of players, but releasing the game and removing the "early access" tag certainly won't do any harm.

Basically, it's a small game developed by a small company, releasing the game won't do much to help or hurt it.

Doomsaying like this certainly won't help, though.

Couldn't it be that they are (like most f2p games in early access afaik?) operating on a loss throughout their alpha/beta/kappa stages and if they have their final ace in the hole (full release) flop they would be in their death throes?  

How long do they pay for the studio space, server space, employees, etc when the game isn't able to pay for all of it?

And if they're planning on adding enough thoughtful dev time to make the game actually good then they'd save release for after that to get the most sticky boost in playerbase.. right?


If I were optimistic I'd see this as an admission it just wont get much better and ultimately this is a hail mary hoping the boost in players will be more sticky than it has been the other times DD2 moved into new "development phases"

But I'm a cynic when it comes to this game and I think the intent of a release now is much more heartless

I think it's reasonable to think this marks the end, in a way


but they could also just be making bank off of current purchases and just be laughing at the people who think this game is failing

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@Pachipachio quote:

but they could also just be making bank off of current purchases and just be laughing at the people who think this game is failing

I thought about this too but every once and a while I check out the dev streams and it looks like for a lack of a better term  "the production" value has dropped. 


Anyways for me I keep coming back and trying the games after the major patch release and then I find myself losing interest quickly. This time around I was actually enjoying it for longer than normal and really do like the concept but it got to grindy with the gold and the map rotation bit made playing annoying since I was reloading so much I spend 4 mins reloading maps until I get one I can play than I set it up and a reflected projectile one shots my core then I spend another 4 mins reloading maps. I only get 23k gold per map so I progress like a slug. Grinding content is one thing but when you have to drop down to almost AFK difficulty just to grind it makes for boring game play that feels like a waist of time. 


Now put all that on a new person that wants to try the game out and when they hit the first trials wall they will probably just leave.

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