Are we really getting the game released with 0 balancing whatsoever ?

Everything is in the title. The game is very clearly absolutely not balanced at all. Some heroes as dps are much more effective than others (Abyss Lord being the most obvious example of OP and Mystic of very underwhelming with her absurdly long animations and overall low damage output). But obviously the elephant in the room is the current "meta" defense-wise with the super domination of weapon manufacturer and some others such as flame aura.

I was fine-ish to have no balance for a few weeks but nothing has been done to seriously adress this since the trials update and now the game is being released in 3 weeks and there is no word whatsoever on balancing, is that a huge "woops we forgot to mention it" or are you really intending to release a game marketed as "finished" with absolutely no balance.

The PDT meta was far more balanced and back then everybody was saying the game should be balanced, at least back then it was simply one passive being ridiculously strong. Now it's most of defenses being completely nullified or simply having super underwhelming numbers to begin with. (Blaze baloon 80 Defense units is the black sheep everybody points out).

So please [[4370,users]] reassure us.

How much damage is abyss lord doing?

My pole smash monk handles rollers in a couple of hits with a low 3 million dps. My ranged monk can burst up to 16 million damage without any hero swapping or external buffs. People have Apprentices with sustained 18+ million DPS. Some classes like squire have much lower damage output, but have much much better survival which keeps them relevant.

Tower meta is based on hard counters so unless flame aura stays as a number 1 choice with EMP orcs then its a problem. But right now with EMP Kobolds who in their right mind would build conventional towers that can be disabled for 30+ seconds or destroyed out right. Now wither you like hard counters or not, the issue is them not the towers until towers like FA's and WM are being used vs their hard counter.

NM4 PDT Meta was not better in any reality :D

PDT meta was not just a case of being hard counters like now, but of doing about 1000% more damage then then most other towers. It was the go to tower for every difficulty, it was so powerful you didnt need anything else. Now we have a case of many towers being very powerful, but a few being clearly superior in utility. 

For example: Flame Aura can attack assassins floating and help with low fliers while Fissures cannot, but fissures can be more closely stacked to amp up Frosty power utility making them do insane damage to ground enemies and bosses.

You are making a case for defenses being imbalanced bast on Chaos 7 hard countering nearly all conventional towers, thats not a good argument in my eyes. If you are arguing about damage output rather then utility, you could at least build a case in that regard. I made that argument back with Flame Auras post update before they had there damage output and defense speed buffed.

Just my opinion anyway, but I just really disagree with the notion that the game is somehow worse off regarding balance and build diversity compared to late or mid Nightmare mode.

@Zimmermann quote:

How much damage is abyss lord doing?

My pole smash monk handles rollers in a couple of hits with a low 3 million dps. My ranged monk can burst up to 16 million damage without any hero swapping or external buffs. People have Apprentices with sustained 18+ million DPS. Some classes like squire have much lower damage output, but have much much better survival which keeps them relevant.

Tower meta is based on hard counters so unless flame aura stays as a number 1 choice with EMP orcs then its a problem. But right now with EMP Kobolds who in their right mind would build conventional towers that can be disabled for 30+ seconds or destroyed out right. Now wither you like hard counters or not, the issue is them not the towers until towers like FA's and WM are being used vs their hard counter.

NM4 PDT Meta was not better in any reality :D

PDT meta was not just a case of being hard counters like now, but of doing about 1000% more damage then then most other towers. It was the go to tower for every difficulty, it was so powerful you didnt need anything else. Now we have a case of many towers being very powerful, but a few being clearly superior in utility. 

For example: Flame Aura can attack assassins floating and help with low fliers while Fissures cannot, but fissures can be more closely stacked to amp up Frosty power utility making them do insane damage to ground enemies and bosses.

You are making a case for defenses being imbalanced bast on Chaos 7 hard countering nearly all conventional towers, thats not a good argument in my eyes. If you are arguing about damage output rather then utility, you could at least build a case in that regard. I made that argument back with Flame Auras post update before they had there damage output and defense speed buffed.

Just my opinion anyway, but I just really disagree with the notion that the game is somehow worse off regarding balance and build diversity compared to late or mid Nightmare mode.

Except the "aura" meta works in EVERY difficulty except Chaos 2 which is the only one containing enough Emp to be annoying.

So no, we have a worse meta than the PDT meta since the PDT meta you could effectively play the game you want it and not being forced to play the one defense that won't get rekt for no specific reason other than poor enemy design. And I'm not talking about towers or enemies, I'm talking about balance. The current balance is really abnoxious at the very best, I'm genuinely tired of peole full C7 gear who are saying "no no the game is really easy to play". I'm really happy for you guys that the game become easy after hundreds of hours of gameplay but it should be possible to have fun before that.

And for the record new players will start with only basic heroes and won't necessarily want to buy all the heroes in the game and at the moment many of those heroes are super strong for different reasons (EV for the weapon manufacturer is crazy op for instance).

I really don't get the people that defend fanatically the game and using the argument of "yeah but I'm doing it my way and it works". Yes, superb, if 1% of the playerbase only can enjoy the game it surely gonna be a massive success at launch, it's surely how life works.

I was surprised at the announcement. I thought launch would be a longer-term plan. However, on reflection I don't see what difference being "launched" is going to make.

So long as TE continue to create, balance, break, and fix the game, I'm happy.

@Little Magic Hat quote:

I was surprised at the announcement. I thought launch would be a longer-term plan. However, on reflection I don't see what difference being "launched" is going to make.

So long as TE continue to create, balance, break, and fix the game, I'm happy.

hmm break and fix??? I thought they only ever broke the game :P. But I have to say I too was surprised its being released on the 20th when it still crashes and has such crappy bugs as wall glitching etc. I wouldnt be too bothered if Trendy actually had a good record for fixing bugs in a timely fashion oh well I guess it will be released as is and maybe next year they will of actually fixed something without breaking it more.

@Sombrero quote:

I really don't get the people that defend fanatically the game and using the argument of "yeah but I'm doing it my way and it works". Yes, superb, if 1% of the playerbase only can enjoy the game it surely gonna be a massive success at launch, it's surely how life works.

I guess this is kind of aimed at me, but no one is defending the game fanatically, its just reasonable to conclude that the game has far more diverse builds now, despite hard counters then it had during the NM4 days. In addition to that, tower damage output is far far better then it was then too.

Its just so far from reasonable to conclude that a time when 1 tower did 1000% more damage then all other towers had better balance... Now at least when your towers are not hard countered you can use almost any tower bar a few of really bad towers.

regarding the original 4, they are all great at the moment build wise, and apprentice, monk, huntress all do fantastic DPS. Squire is also really good. If I had to point at a problem, i would ask the question; are the shards available in the right chaos mode to make the progression challenging but not awful? Thats my biggest worry that the good shards are behind a wall of content that makes them almost impossible to gain.

Also disagreeing with you does not mean we want the game to be launched with glaring problems... If hard counters push players away from the game.. sure deal with them, if not keep them.

Well there is many posts about hard counter on the forums and we had 0 answer from the devteam so far so I think it's a common concern.

As for the meta, all defenses could be used in NM4, litterally all, some were less powerful ok. But right now many defenses are impossible to use.

And let's be real, 90% of players use the very same build not even because it is the best one, but simply because all the others are really really MUCH worse because of how hard the enemies counter everything.

I would love to use the Squire towers, but nope geodes.

@Sombrero quote:

Well there is many posts about hard counter on the forums and we had 0 answer from the devteam so far so I think it's a common concern.

As for the meta, all defenses could be used in NM4, litterally all, some were less powerful ok. But right now many defenses are impossible to use.

And let's be real, 90% of players use the very same build not even because it is the best one, but simply because all the others are really really MUCH worse because of how hard the enemies counter everything.

I would love to use the Squire towers, but nope geodes.

With all my godly NM4 gear back then I could almost never build public games with my Frosty/LA/Blockade/SGT build. On solo I often lost SGT's, On some incursions if i didn't do upgrades in a perfect way and actively DPS i would lose. If I used my PDT's then I could AFK 4 man public. Thats not balance, You cannot say "you could use all towers in NM4" and call that balance. PDT's did 1200% more damage then LA's... A rank 1 PDT did 3 times more damage then a rank 5 LA. I was so annoyed by the state of balance back then it wasnt even funny.

Random Geodes on maps where you are supposed to build projectile towers are the worst I agree with that.

@Zimmermann quote:

@Sombrero quote:

Well there is many posts about hard counter on the forums and we had 0 answer from the devteam so far so I think it's a common concern.

As for the meta, all defenses could be used in NM4, litterally all, some were less powerful ok. But right now many defenses are impossible to use.

And let's be real, 90% of players use the very same build not even because it is the best one, but simply because all the others are really really MUCH worse because of how hard the enemies counter everything.

I would love to use the Squire towers, but nope geodes.

With all my godly NM4 gear back then I could almost never build public games with my Frosty/LA/Blockade/SGT build. On solo I often lost SGT's, On some incursions if i didn't do upgrades in a perfect way and actively DPS i would lose. If I used my PDT's then I could AFK 4 man public. Thats not balance, You cannot say "you could use all towers in NM4" and call that balance. PDT's did 1200% more damage then LA's... A rank 1 PDT did 3 times more damage then a rank 5 LA. I was so annoyed by the state of balance back then it wasnt even funny.

Random Geodes on maps where you are supposed to build projectile towers are the worst I agree with that.

it's public knowledge that Lighting Aura was the weakest defense in the game and a pure aura based build shouldn't work in a healthy meta anyway (funnily at the moment it's the most effective).

With your example all you're saying is that you like this meta better because it uses your favorite defense the most. It's not because Lightning aura was bad that nothing else than PDT could work. There is many players that stopped using PDT entirely to have fun and it was working well (so well that we could entirely afk). At the moment there is very few combos that are effective enough to simply survive.

Try to have a fresh account and go all the way to Chaos 7 without weapon manufacturer and flame aura. Good luck with that.

@Sombrero quote:

it's public knowledge that Lighting Aura was the weakest defense in the game and a pure aura based build shouldn't work in a healthy meta anyway (funnily at the moment it's the most effective).

With your example all you're saying is that you like this meta better because it uses your favorite defense the most. It's not because Lightning aura was bad that nothing else than PDT could work. There is many players that stopped using PDT entirely to have fun and it was working well (so well that we could entirely afk). At the moment there is very few combos that are effective enough to simply survive.

Try to have a fresh account and go all the way to Chaos 7 without weapon manufacturer and flame aura. Good luck with that.

Why shouldnt it work, when u have highest ipwr? The game should be easy then. Also who says that u have to clear the whole game with 1-2 towers? I dont know why there are more and more people like sombrero and ram are coming out and think they know in which direction the game should go, purely based on their experience, but judging people when they talk about their experience. i really hope trendy will continue not responding to them and do their own thing. Because thats such a inmature and toxic behavior and will make the game boring and bad.

@Samoth quote:

@Sombrero quote:

it's public knowledge that Lighting Aura was the weakest defense in the game and a pure aura based build shouldn't work in a healthy meta anyway (funnily at the moment it's the most effective).

With your example all you're saying is that you like this meta better because it uses your favorite defense the most. It's not because Lightning aura was bad that nothing else than PDT could work. There is many players that stopped using PDT entirely to have fun and it was working well (so well that we could entirely afk). At the moment there is very few combos that are effective enough to simply survive.

Try to have a fresh account and go all the way to Chaos 7 without weapon manufacturer and flame aura. Good luck with that.

Why shouldnt it work, when u have highest ipwr? The game should be easy then. Also who says that u have to clear the whole game with 1-2 towers? I dont know why there are more and more people like sombrero and ram are coming out and think they know in which direction the game should go, purely based on their experience, but judging people when they talk about their experience. i really hope trendy will continue not responding to them and do their own thing. Because thats such a inmature and toxic behavior and will make the game boring and bad.

Just an FYI public naming/shaming is not cool. Love the irony of your post.

Sombrero quote:

Except the "aura" meta works in EVERY difficulty except Chaos 2 which is the only one containing enough Emp to be annoying.

All "metas" work in every chaos difficulty, some just work better than others. It's mostly about your relative power to the difficulty whether it will win (along with other factors that can contribute to a win even if you're at the current difficulty). 

Sombrero quote:

Try to have a fresh account and go all the way to Chaos 7 without weapon manufacturer and flame aura. Good luck with that.

This isn't impossible at all.  I'm not gonna mention what would work cuz I don't want it to become the next target of the day. 

@Sombrero quote:

Try to have a fresh account and go all the way to Chaos 7 without weapon manufacturer and flame aura. Good luck with that.

C1 pdt - flamethrower

C2 pdt - flamethrower

C3 flamethrower - frosty

C4 same as 3

C5 pdt

C6 pdt

C7 the only place where WM and FA are op due to hitting air and ground. Just use tank frostys or well placed trees to eat the emp kobolts then you can use anything to take care of the rest.

@Pegazul quote:

@Sombrero quote:

Try to have a fresh account and go all the way to Chaos 7 without weapon manufacturer and flame aura. Good luck with that.

C1 pdt - flamethrower

C2 pdt - flamethrower

C3 flamethrower - frosty

C4 same as 3

C5 pdt

C6 pdt

C7 the only place where WM and FA are op due to hitting air and ground. Just use tank frostys or well placed trees to eat the emp kobolts then you can use anything to take care of the rest.

Those aren't the only ones that work well either.  I never used a single WM or FA until I was well geared out in C7, and I was having an easy time long before that, and I suck at the game. 

@iAndy quote:

@Pegazul quote:

@Sombrero quote:

Try to have a fresh account and go all the way to Chaos 7 without weapon manufacturer and flame aura. Good luck with that.

C1 pdt - flamethrower

C2 pdt - flamethrower

C3 flamethrower - frosty

C4 same as 3

C5 pdt

C6 pdt

C7 the only place where WM and FA are op due to hitting air and ground. Just use tank frostys or well placed trees to eat the emp kobolts then you can use anything to take care of the rest.

Those aren't the only ones that work well either.  I never used a single WM or FA until I was well geared out in C7, and I was having an easy time long before that, and I suck at the game. 

same ^_^

Much as it pains to me admit this, I am also questioning having an official release at this point.  I feel like Trendy's developmental efforts have been seriously misplaced this past year.  Course, I'm also of the belief that Combos were removed in an effort to cater to the casual/console players, so maybe I'm just cynical.