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SpiderDanX

Poll time about hard counters.

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I was talk with Jojozityjo and she gave me a great idea! Let's do a poll about the hard counters and see what the results are. No need to explain why you vote theynwaynyou do, but no one is stopping you. However, would love to get just the vote without an explanation as there are plenty of other posts with opinions and explanations about the hard counter enemies.

For those of you who may be newer, "hard counters" include the following:

1. Vanguard Goblins

2. Geode shields

3. Cybork EMP Orcs

4. Lady Orcs 

5. Dark Assassins

6. Hex Throwers

7. Kobolts 


Now the poll to answer is this:

Hard counters, do you:

A: Like them

B: Hate them

C: Somewhere in between.


In asking this I realize we have different thoughts/feelings about each one. So, let's do this - Just answer for each mob with A, B or C. 

Example:

1A

2B

3C

4B

5C

6A

7C


This way, the results will be more accurate. Thanks and happy voting! :-)


*edit*

After some feedback, I will clarify the "True hard counters," which are vanguards, geodes, cyborgs and kind of Assassins. But, continue to vote on all the new mobs. Please and thank you! :-)


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okay, few things actually. This should be a poll for wanting the hard-counters replaced with actual challenging mobs that dont render entire tower categories worthless.

and, not all of those mobs are hard-counters and that may make a huge source of confusion.

Hard-Counter mobs are mobs that render entire tower categories completely useless not just for them, but for every mob. Official Hard-Counters are ...

Geode

Cyborc/EMP Orcs

and at the bottom of the list we have ... Vanguards.


The others are not official hard-counters as any tower can work on, or with them, they do not make using any particular tower a complete waste of DU. You can use any tower or hero to kill any of those mobs or at least the mobs around them.

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1A

2A

3A

4C: They have pathing issues and sometimes run over your walls

5A

6A I don't like how long their range is but they're designed that way to make you adapt and that's fine

7C: They go straight for your core at times and ignore your other towers, they also love to ruin my day by blowing up sub objectives, ignoring all my defenses in front


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i might use that if i wanna make a more defined poll, cause i wanted to make a poll but dan kinda snuck it out from under me and worded it WAY different than i would have lol

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Most of them are no hard counters. 

1:A  - doesn't hard counter anything. Facing defenses into a different direction is not a hard counter.

2:B - A real hard counter. Anti fun.

3:B - same as geodes to a lesser extend

4:C - Not really a hard counter. But needs to be tuned down some.

5:A - not a hard counter to anything. Other than the C5 spam, a few assassins just make things more interesting.

6:A - not a hard counter at all not even a thread.

7:B - relative hard counter to towers. Needs its dmg taken away since the silence and the insane dmg are redundant.

8: BBBBB siege rollers are the hardest counter of them all. They hard counter all of the defenses and are the dumbest thing introduced to any tower defense game i've ever played.

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@Jojozityjo quote:

i might use that if i wanna make a more defined poll, cause i wanted to make a poll but dan kinda snuck it out from under me and worded it WAY different than i would have lol

Make one and I will vote. Dan is trying to help Trendy with our opinions. I will gladly participate in a poll if you make one. :)

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GEODES

GEODES

GEODES

B B B   .....hate hate hate.

This hard counter takes away so many fun builds.

The rest I can deal with. At least make it so Geodes don't reflect your shot and kill defenses and crystals :(

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1-A

2-A

3-A

4-A

5-B

6-A

7-B

Basically, I don't mind the hard counters at all.  My only issue, which I am assuming will be addressed by release, is that there's not a "master mode" where every tier is a possibility for a lane.  At least then every character will be worth gearing because they will have some measure of use in a game.  However, I absolutely hate the assassins and the kobold fliers.  They're way too disruptive and I just don't have fun when they exist.

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so, so far, what im seeing is, no one really likes the hard-counter mobs, and those that do, only do so because they assume something unique or "fair" will be done about them in the future. Which, still, essentially leads to no one legitimately liking them as they are, in this game state right now.


Also, side note, Vanguards are, in technicality, a hard counter, small hard counter yes, but they are. Cause they dont only block projectiles from the front, but from back too, they take dmg from the back but they protect the other mobs from any side. Prime Example, piercing projectiles, like Ballista, or certain hero attacks. No matter what side those piercing projectiles fly from, the vanguards completely stop them from reaching other mobs. So a minor hard-counter, but one none the less.


The big baddies that i, and apparently every one here, feels something needs to be done about, replaced with better mobs or tweaked to be not hard-counters or introduced in a different way, are the Geodes and Cyborcs.

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A to all of them, now the assassin can't permasilence you it has lost it's huge annoyance factor.

They aren't really hard counters to anything, they render certain defences at certain tiers vastly less effective or even more dangerous to use (geodes and PDTs anyone). All players have access to the original four heroes and the game can be completed using just these.

The time of start game leech NM4 Inc Chrome Enemies, gain Toxic Shock and GG all maps is thankfully long long gone.

A better tutorial about loot ranges and progression is sorely needed along with game Minimum Armour restrictions too.

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not really the place for debate fozzie. Besides, we all know, by definition, they are hard-counters, otherwise it wouldnt be such an issue in the game with a lot of flare in topics. No one really says they aren't hard-counters, they are, we all just have different levels of tolerance for them and different ways of dealing with them and different things we want done to/with them. Even by your definition of rendering towers useless or dangerous (geodes vs PDTs) that is exactly what a hard-counter is.

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1. A

2. C

3. C

4. B

5. B

6. A

7. A

Hard counters have been an interesting addition to the game but it does take away some of the fun if you can't use your favorite tower to advance.

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  1. C
  2. C
  3. C
  4. C
  5. C
  6. C
  7. C

it's a challenge to overcome. As i've been either (i) lucky; or (ii) persistent enough to overcome the hurdles; I'm fairly ambivalent to the current state of the hard-counters. For everyone else:

(a) If the game gives you enough tools, they are ok.

(b) If the game fails at giving you the tools to overcome the challenges - or only makes the tools accessible to a small% of the player-base - then they are a PITA. 
Bugs can further exacerbate the issue (e.g. wall aggro and lady orcs).

Unfortunately, a fair few hard-counters fall into category (b), not by virtue of being a hard-counter, but because of lack of alternative tools / bugs. Fix this and hard-counters will be enjoyable to a larger % of the player-base.

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Next time you should actually use a real poll because as such it's impossible to read anything from it.

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@Fozzie quote:

They aren't really hard counters to anything, they render certain defences at certain tiers vastly less effective or even more dangerous to use (geodes and PDTs anyone).

You do realize that what you've described is exactly the definition of a hard counter, right?

Anyways, I actually don't mind the mechanics of any hard counter enemies; I just wish they were more diverse and less of them. For example, in C7 spread out through all 5 waves we'd see 1-2 groups of each chaos enemy. It wouldn't be enough to force you to use defenses that counter them back, but it would be enough to use your favorite build while personally addressing the threats that counter your build. We also need a counter to emitter defenses so people don't just revert to flamethrowers or ramsters (since they're currently not countered). For example, if you were using a PDT build, you'd want to watch out for the occasional vanguard group, shield geode, and EMP kobold - if you protect your defenses from these threat enemies that maybe spawn once per wave, your defenses will take care of the rest. If you leave them unchecked, you're going to have a bad time.

Prior to the segregation of chaos enemies into their own tiers, Trendy was on the right track - it was just bad design in that it was impossible for players to personally address the threats in every single lane since there were so freaking many of them. To get around that, we resorted to the only defenses that didn't have counters. A single hard counter can ruin a build if left unchecked, so if the numbers were drastically reduced we'd be able to personally deal with the few threat enemies while still using our favorite build(s).

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1A - They're cool.

2A - Why were their models negatively scaled? They look odd.

3C - Disable auras yes - it makes sense. Stop them disabling traps. That should be another mob (like a trapper).

4C - They're cool but I don't like the wall hopping (especially since half of the time, they go past the wall only to turn around and attack it from behind).

5C - I like that they're different. I don't like that they instantly heal. Assassins are meant to be unseen, fierce, yet fragile.

6B - I hated them in C6 because there were far too many of them and I had to rely on building reflect walls to deal with them. In C7 they die fast enough because they aren't so numerous.

7A - Only issue I have with these is the same as kobolds when in public - people aggroing them.

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#Cyborks are in C2 and Geodes are in C3, you might wanna edit that.



I'll make it easy for anybody that wants to deal with them only with the original 4's by putting their counter down below.

C1. Vanguard Goblins - A - (just a troop with a shield) - Flame Auras.

C2. Cyborks ( EMP Orcs ) - A - (interesting mechanic) - Flamethrowers + PTD's

C3. Geode Shields - C - (it takes the spam left click fun out of it) - Flame Auras

C4. Lady Orcs - C - (just because of the wall hopping bug) - Flame Auras

C5. Dark Assassins - C - (mhe, something to do other than to be a repair/upgrade robot) - same as C2 or you can use cannons with stun shard instead of Flamethrowers (throw some Frosties into the mix) also a pet with Dazzle Ability is good against Assassins. Always try to be in range of your AA when they attack you.

C6. Hex Throwers - B - (just because they are ***s and curse your defense and there's no workaround with original 4's other than kill them with overkill damage) - Flame Auras + Flamethrowers combo on them.

C7. Kobolts - can't say as im not there yet - but probably a good combo Flame Auras + Skyguards should do.


If you want to make it even easier for yourself and have the medals, a good EV2 build in C6 (reflect walls) and in C7 (weapon manufactures + reflect walls) will make those "hard counters" pretty much useless.

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