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Bad building not bugs

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So many people whinging about wall hopping mobs and cores dying for no reason.

Look at your builds before crying bug this bug that, fix this fix that.

Trendy can't fix people building badly.

Get good you slackers.


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True story, when a build works 99% of the time and then randomly a Kobold from across the entire map runs past everything, including you to hit a sub obj on another lane....that makes no sense.   Had this happen on Throne Room, a Kobold from the lower lane dashed past my barricade (to note, the other 9 kobolds went into the barricade) ran past both core crystals, past me cause I did see it and tried to get it, up one of the side lanes and hit the window control.  Like, I am glad it didn't hit a core, but wtf was it doing?  That is what I call a bug.


I went on to win the map, but it was about the wierdest thing I've seen a Kobold do.  That being said, I haven't changed my build at all on Throne room the following 3-4 runs on it and it's never happened again.  So kind of makes me think it was a fluke, aka a bug.

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Argonias that was a gap in your wall. Kobolds will aim to destroy other blockades or sub objectives if they get passed your blockade. Strangely they will not attempt to detonate on the same blockade from behind, and often will ignore your core in favour of defenses/subs miles away... I would class it as very strange mechanics but not a bug.

But I am pretty sure that was a case of there being a gap in your walls, its happened to me many times before I had OP towers. Always check your gaps, and even then sometimes gaps you cant get through some enemies can.

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It is absolutely an issue. The thing is that bad builds make it worse and more obvious.

If you're in c7 gear, do me a favor and try chaos 2 and only build walls without any damaging towers. Enemies will pile up and eventually push each other over them, especially if you've built on a slope in their favor. I have personally witnessed this several times. There are many maps where enemies only travel downhill, which makes it very difficult to build around. In case you don't remember, enemy pileup was quite common before we were overgeared.

Again, you're starting a thread that appears to have the sole intention of driving a wedge in the community, telling them to "git gud". Why? There are tons of better ways to express your opinion of this issue than by calling them slackers without any genuine advice to help them along.

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@gigazelle quote:

try chaos 2 and only build walls without any damaging towers. Enemies will pile up and eventually push each other over them, especially if you've built on a slope in their favor.

I feel like I am missing something here, because I see that as working as intended. You don't kill monsters fast enough your walls get destroyed or get literally over run, though realistically with C2 wall health they will get destroyed before they are climbed.

Regarding building at the bottom or on a slope in the enemies favour just makes no strategic sense.. I find it great that the game actually has this feature that walls are "lower" (which they would be in reality) when building on a slope in the favour of the oncoming enemies. Now maybe it was not designed that way, but neither was strafe jumping in Quake I to III and it was arguably the best feature in the game. I say keep it in!

Now I agree that just saying "get good and stop qqing" isnt constructive at all, but likewise i do understand the frustration when every thread on the forums is complaining about stuff that is avoidable and not a bug in many cases.

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We can argue till we're blue in the face whether it's intended or not - I would say wall hopping is absolutely not intended, you can say it is. It's a difference of opinions there, and I respect that.

I will say though that it is a significant detractor to the playing experience - a loss due to enemies shimmying around a wall is a great way to make players ragequit, and with so many enticing titles out there, negative playing experiences come at a pretty steep cost to Trendy. Due to the number of complaints about it, I would say it's a pretty high priority for Trendy to address.

Losses that I deserve due to using the wrong defenses or failing to properly maintain a lane invigorate me to try harder. Those are the losses that we want to encourage (well, not encourage losing, but encourage game design to where only fair losses occur). Right now DD2 has WAY too many unfair loss scenarios - I hope you can agree with me on that.

Strafe jumping in quake series was ultimately not a negative experience to the player. It was a quirk that players could use to their advantage. You can't use enemy wall hopping to your advantage.

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@gigazelle quote:

Losses that I deserve due to using the wrong defenses or failing to properly maintain a lane invigorate me to try harder. Those are the losses that we want to encourage (well, not encourage losing, but encourage game design to where only fair losses occur). Right now DD2 has WAY too many unfair loss scenarios - I hope you can agree with me on that.

This is really what it's about. Making losses actually fair. Losing due to a singular dude that hops over a wall and one-shots the core is nowhere near fair. It's essentially randomly punishing good positioning. You shouldn't have to plan around enemies glitching through your walls.

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@gigazelle quote:

I will say though that it is a significant detractor to the playing experience - a loss due to enemies shimmying around a wall is a great way to make players ragequit, and with so many enticing titles out there, negative playing experiences come at a pretty steep cost to Trendy. Due to the number of complaints about it, I would say it's a pretty high priority for Trendy to address.

I agree that losing to a single monster getting past your wall is a rage quit moment and that needs to be addressed to keep players happy. I would like to add however, my point about wall hopping was about monster build up on walls not individual monsters falling off edges.. then shimmying around to  your core, or climbing lamp posts (little horn) and getting over your walls to kill your core.

So in essence, wall hopping because of walls at bottoms of slopes or to many monsters building up on your wall is fine. Individual berserkers climbing over your walls or falling off ledges (summoned skeletons do this too) is not acceptable.


@gigazelle quote:

Strafe jumping in quake series was ultimately not a negative experience to the player. It was a quirk that players could use to their advantage. You can't use enemy wall hopping to your advantage.

Again this was a point to illustrate unintended game mechanics that make a game more interesting and in depth. I used this to illustrate how monster build up on walls causing wall hoppers or walls at the bottom of slopes being less effective is a good thing.  On the first count it causes players to use slows and better DPS towers to prevent monster build up, while on the second count it encourages players to think where on the terrain they place there walls.

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no.  if it was a bad idea to place walls on slopes you could simply not allow wall placement on slopes

it doesn't create emergent gameplay to force unpredictable failures on people.  "oh look i can totally wall right here and everything will be great, WELP I GUESS NOT because of something no one told me and there was no way i could possibly foresee and the result of which isn't even made clear to me so i have to fail in this manner multiple times to understand a problem exists because if it were PROGRAMMED and INTENTIONAL for this to happen, they would have done something to INFORM THE PLAYERS instead of letting them fail in order to learn"

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@Zimmermann quote:

I agree that losing to a single monster getting past your wall is a rage quit moment and that needs to be addressed to keep players happy. I would like to add however, my point about wall hopping was about monster build up on walls not individual monsters falling off edges.. then shimmying around to  your core, or climbing lamp posts (little horn) and getting over your walls to kill your core.

So in essence, wall hopping because of walls at bottoms of slopes or to many monsters building up on your wall is fine. Individual berserkers climbing over your walls or falling off ledges (summoned skeletons do this too) is not acceptable.

I hope you agree though that there is gray area there. You can think that hopping due to excessive enemy pile up is valid, but you also have to accept that others do not see it that way. And to be clear I can accept your opinion. In my eyes specifically your walls should only ever be walked around if you single wall a very obvious double-wall lane. Otherwise nothing should ever jump over your walls. Destroy the walls, not jump over them. If enemies build up, they should use their combined might to demolish you wall --- not fling and glitch off each other and jump over it.

Though it'd be another thing entirely if goblins had a mechanic where they climb on each other and make a bigger and bigger moving goblin tower and then get over your wall that way. Now that's some funny imagery Emoji_Kobalt.png

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ram1024 can you honestly say that when placing a wall at the bottom of a slope you didn't think "this must be a really bad place to build a wall?". In any war film or historical strategic analysis you never heard anyone say "hold the bottom of the hill!" no they said "hold the high ground" for obvious reasons :D

I love it, and its fantastic they clearly didn't even design it.. it just happened because of their core game physics.

Now to be a bit fesescious, they can always add a tutorial on the basics of "high ground advantage" for those wanting to climb into a pit to defend their core :D


[[19416,users]] yeah I think if there is a handful of monsters on your wall.. nothing should climb over. I am talking when you have a million monsters all crammed in and you are repairing... in these cases sure monsters should start overflowing... I had 2 ogres trying to get through one time.. one climbed over. That was in the old days of NM4 Catacombs incursion and I was using Lightning Auras and Frosties.

I am not advocating 5 Berserkers hitting your wall then 1 glitching over... I am purely talking about a huge mass of enemies where there is literally not enough space left without spilling over. However 9 times out of 10 the wall breaks before they climb over anyway.

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@Plasma quote:

Though it'd be another thing entirely if goblins had a mechanic where they climb on each other and make a bigger and bigger moving goblin tower and then get over your wall that way. Now that's some funny imagery Emoji_Kobalt.png

I... like in which direction the topic is going, gobu. Totaly approve.

Emoji_Goblin.pngEmoji_Huntress.pngEmoji_Kobalt.png~(We approve!!! Gobu)

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@ram1024 quote:

no.  if it was a bad idea to place walls on slopes you could simply not allow wall placement on slopes

it doesn't create emergent gameplay to force unpredictable failures on people.  "oh look i can totally wall right here and everything will be great, WELP I GUESS NOT because of something no one told me and there was no way i could possibly foresee and the result of which isn't even made clear to me so i have to fail in this manner multiple times to understand a problem exists because if it were PROGRAMMED and INTENTIONAL for this to happen, they would have done something to INFORM THE PLAYERS instead of letting them fail in order to learn"

I can almost accept enemies walking over your walls if you place a blockade on a downward slope, but it's too inconsistent. I have a specific example because it's still fresh in my mind from today's session. Little-horn Valley, Chaos 5, the lane with the East sub-objective I put a blockade on a downward slope to the core. It never gets jumped over. I can jump over it simply by walking but berserkers never do. Yet berserkers can hop over walls on the same level as them on other portions of the map. I just don't see how it is anything other than glitchy behavior. 

It could possibly even be a cool thing --- needing to use other, taller walls, to block downward slope lanes but because it's inconsistent I cannot see this. It's not like they always jump over it and not like they always don't. 

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@dreamanime quote:
@Plasma quote:

Though it'd be another thing entirely if goblins had a mechanic where they climb on each other and make a bigger and bigger moving goblin tower and then get over your wall that way. Now that's some funny imagery Emoji_Kobalt.png

I... like in which direction the topic is going, gobu. Totaly approve.

Emoji_Goblin.pngEmoji_Huntress.pngEmoji_Kobalt.png~(We approve!!! Gobu)

Goblin Pyramid Schemes

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Y'all complaining about enemies climbing walls, and I'm sitting here trying to defend with my World Trees because I refuse to admit maws are better.

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I understand the frustration, but failure is the best way to learn, beserkers and sometimes the slekeleon wall ignoring is definitely not intended, but mob buildup/pushing is just the game imo, we should have thinned out the herd before they've made it to your walls, and double walling a lane shouldn't be disregarded in certain maps either.


Saying 'get good', and really any thread like this is useless to the community for the most part, I agree. I will end with saying that I started at C2 with somewhat bad gear and after some failures and learning which walls and where would suffice, I haven't had a single wall-related issue. 

That's about 320 hours (yes I am a loser) with this 'bug' not affected a single game, from C2-C7. And I am nothing special, just learnt from a bunch of failures and experiments, Just like a lot of us did back in DD1. The frequency of this problem discussed is enormous and I think it will be sorted in time.


Personally, I just want another bloody map to play to keep my sanity Emoji_Skeleton.png

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a good game doesn't have "learn from failure".  you are presented with information you need to tackle whatever challenge you face

having hidden mechanics does not make good gameplay.  people THINK that it should be considered good gameplay because they remember this tactic from NES-SEGA days where you would habitually play a level 20 times to learn all the GOTCHA effects that were thrown in and that was considered the actual game.  rote memorization of programmed fail points :P

evolution moves forward.  early gaming wasn't GOOD gaming, it was just the best we had at the time.  nowadays we realize that presenting an unexpected fail point is not FUN, it doesn't present a real challenge.  it just adds a point of frustration.  a bottleneck to how the player is allowed to experience the game

being a GLITCH and not intentional makes this even more annoying.  there's no explanation in the game where the devs tell you that zerkers will hop walls, javelins will occasionally go through them, and skeletons will res on the other sides.  they don't tell you that the mages will sometimes MISS their intended target and shoot bolts that have infinite range and can hit your core from across the map.  

furthermore it's impossible to preventatively act to not suffer through this.  there isn't enough DU to mount a defense everywhere and then back each lane up with 2 extra walls that would 100% guarantee leaks did not cause losses.  you simply can't do this when you're pushing progression.  it only works when you've vastly outgeared the content and you don't need full power to handle each lane

anyways enough ranting sorry

TLDR - forcing people to fail first is not good design

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In my (not so) humble opinion one of the main issues is that the wall jumping mobs bug exists, thus when people do bad builds such as leaving large gaps in the walls they instantly shout bug instead of looking at what they did. It might not be instantly clear what you did wrong and as such you instead believe it to be the bug causing leaks.

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@[UMF] Filthylopez quote:

That's about 320 hours (yes I am a loser) with this 'bug' not affected a single game, from C2-C7. And I am nothing special, just learnt from a bunch of failures and experiments, Just like a lot of us did back in DD1. The frequency of this problem discussed is enormous and I think it will be sorted in time.


Maybe next time try it without crazy stats. With 150 asc and the best of c4 gear you can't build anything in c5 that could even be close to killing the berserkers before they pile up on your double walls. GL repairing while watching out for glitching mobs and assassins. But even 2 or 3 berserkers can glitch through the walls. I always have to finish my waves by going to my walls and killing the berserkers that are hitting it from behind

It was told a thousand times, it is not intended, they are not supposed to glitch through it, they are not supposed to climb it. This is simply a bug that they can't or don't bother to fix.


And just because someone farmed c1 maps till they got 500 ascension and therefore can do everything without walls doesn't make this problem less valid. 

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i usually don't catch the leak to see how it happened, but i seem to die with all walls intact.
however i've seen plenty of times mages summon skeletons on the 'back of my wall'.. More often than not, they'll hit the wall.. but once in a blue moon they'll snipe your crystal

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Personally I remember in DD1 that the wall didn't even have to cover the entire gap to perform its function.  As long as it covered a majority of the gap it was fine.  Creatures never glitched past, once you knew the spots to put the walls to cover the lanes properly, and that is single walls on every lane pretty much.  Very few times did you need to use multiple walls to cover a lane.  Granted I also remember I used the EV walls alot once I got her leveled which her walls were amazing.

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If you don't put in a post that provokes discussion it quickly disappears.

Some people want walls with a higher aggro than the core so mobs will stick to it until it is destroyed.

Maybe w need a shard for sticky walls, or provoking walls.

I've lost countless times to wtf moments in DD2 many due to poor building, some I couldn't explain.

C5 is definitely the biggest chance of losing to bored orcs as their aggro timer runs out and they look for the next target. I layered my walls when I first came to C5 so they moved on to another wall not the core but sometimes this also wasn't enough.

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[[9836,users]] looking at the pic the blockade is on a downhill which is not great, it's taken a hammering so it could have been aggro timer had xpired, you had multiple players so it had lots more health to survive the aura.

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