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I am unhappy. I am angry.... I am something.... Another post about Hard counters


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You should definitely get that on video and either post it here or on the bug site. That would be a really annoying bug. I have seen one warp glitch and it was a long time ago and I caught the little bugger before he got to the core (it was one of those side-skipping goblins). I even saw it happen, he just *poofed* appeared behind the wall and started his little clockwork-orange skip towards the core. It was way back before the new chaos levels were introduced so that particular bug may have been fixed by now. 

If you have a nvidia graphics card, they have a thing that lets you playback the last 5 minutes of gameplay, you just save the file and upload it to youtube.  With how frequently they're happening to you, you could get a lot of stuff fixed. 

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@iAndy quote:

You should definitely get that on video and either post it here or on the bug site. That would be a really annoying bug. I have seen one warp glitch and it was a long time ago and I caught the little bugger before he got to the core (it was one of those side-skipping goblins). I even saw it happen, he just *poofed* appeared behind the wall and started his little clockwork-orange skip towards the core. It was way back before the new chaos levels were introduced so that particular bug may have been fixed by now. 

If you have a nvidia graphics card, they have a thing that lets you playback the last 5 minutes of gameplay, you just save the file and upload it to youtube.  With how frequently they're happening to you, you could get a lot of stuff fixed. 

This has been reported several times and it's a common occurrence for more than just me. I'm also playing on PS4.

They're aware of it, but instead of fixing this shiat, they keep pooping out chaos Tier levels instead of focusing on the core game.

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An easy way to alleviate it would be to increase the core HP so that the player at least has some time to react to it and fix the situation.  But nope, Trendy wants a decreased margin of error for high chaos tiers.

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1st off, thanks for your responses everyone! This helps me understand a bit better. :-)

Now to respond....in no particular order:

@Elyssae quote:

This is the pure definition of a Troll Post. Or at least Bait post

I'm constantly refraining from posting but your posts do get me aggravated for some reason. Go figure.

/golfclap

You got me! ;-) I normally don't make troll post tag lines as many on this forum know. I was just in a cheeky mood.


[[130078,users]] - Good suggestions. I'd especially still enjoy the options you laid out for geodes and Vanguards.


[[168598,users]] - Thanks for the links to other posts. Good reads.


@n8hfx quote:


@SpiderDanX quote:Thanks for reading. Let's be civil and grown up here please! Thanks! :-)


Yeah. You just threw any credibility you had into the street with that troll tag line and nonsense post bud. SpiderDanX, never to be taken seriously again.

If you say so.... I still like you. :-)


[[146531,users]] - constructive and well put in your 1st post. Your 2nd post you talk about the Skellies and lady orcs that sneak past walls. The WAY that they make it past (not making it past in and of itself) are 1 part intended game design and 1 part bug, as far as I understand. Certain Skelliy mini bosses die and resurrect. That is of course intended. But, when I see a skelly mini boss die on one side of my wall and sure thing on the other, it makes me sad. If I am paying attention, I can stop it. Doesn't mean it should happen, tho. Keep it on the side of the it dies on, please Trendy.

Lady orcs  - Trendy has gone on record to say that when enough enemies pile up on walls /defenses then other enemies will walk past walls/defenses to find another close by target, with the highest priority being on the crystal/objective. Lady orcs follow this rule.....to the extreme...way too often. To the point that it seems they have their own rules that they , themselves, made up. 

Once I had 1 lady orc and then 2 lady orcs bypass my well laid out wall (or so I thought) in ONE WAVE (maybe it was two)! I killed the 1st one with auto attacks, then I killed the other 2 with a nuke (Atomic Launcher). That was Necrotic Temple on the far left lane. I had a Maw of the Earthdrake there. I y surprised that they made it by. I beat that map that time. But, had I not been paying attention, I would have easily died. Something needs changing here...

[[72087,users]] - You always do a good job explaining your position! :-)

[[15122,users]] - fairer, not easier....got it!

[[157787,users]] - You are right about what you said.

[[159823,users]] - Ok. I get what you are saying. Thanks for sharing. :-)


@mecra quote:

Again, it really seems that Trendy doesn't actually play their own game.

I hope you don't actually mean this. I know 100% that they do. Just watch any Friday Fun streams. Even on Dev streams they often showcase new content by playing the game. They have bug testers that play the game to find and Eliminate bugs. I have heard conversation from Elandrian and iamisom talk about players my the game from scratch to see what it's like. I have even seen both of them play. I see other trendy folk in town once in awhile, too. If you press Esc in town enough times and scroll through the list of players, you too will see Trendy at some point. 

[[149005,users]] - I'm with ya. If I fail, I generally blame myself for building something wrong. If I know for a fact it was a bug (i.e. Invisible enemies), I'll just go onto the next map as if I built nothing wrong and bug report it after I'm done playing (or upvote if it is existing). Learn from failed maps, "What could I have done better?" Or "What did I do wrong?" I have a friend I used to play with every night who taught me how to pay attention to the map and how to think ahead and all sorts of game changing strategies for DD2 (well, game changing for me, anyway.) He has since quit gaming altogether. But, when I follow what he taught me, I rarely lose. If I don't do what he taught me, I lose more often. 


[[168430,users]]-Kaboom - A poll would be a good idea. Trendy has been know to do polls for us. Maybe this would be useful for this topic, too. :-)


[[166259,users]] - On page 2, you seem to have quoted yourself and then respond to yourself.... did I miss something? Or are you quoting your March 9th post and then responding to my original post?


Thanks for everyone's feedback! Sorry if I missed responding to you! Kinda nice to have things consolidated into 1 post. I still am of the opinion that I am fine with how they are now (minus bugs, of course). But, I now better understand why ppl do not like the hard counters or find them unfun and/or unfair. If Pegazul's suggestions made it into the game, I'd be fine with those changes, too. :-)


 That said, [[4370,users]] [[3957,users]] [[48971,users]] - no need to respond, but here ya guys go. Consolidation of the hard counter concerns/complaints and some suggestions to boot! Not that you guys asked for it, but here you go anyway. :-) and largely a civil conversation, too! Love it when that happens! 

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@theProdigy quote:

It isn't fun for me to grind up to a Chaos tier that just makes EVEN MORE of my tower options or hero abilities meaningless.

You know how most games (since the NES days) give you cool new abilities and power ups when you progress? Imagine if that went backwards. Like if you played Megaman and you started the game off with all of your cool abilities. Now every time you beat a boss, you lose abilities. That is unfun. I would much rather play a way more difficult level while being able to keep and use all of my abilities.


That is how DD2 feels to me. Each Chaos tier I progress to takes away more and more cool / fun weapons in my arsenal to the point where there are only 1-3 weapons that work. Once you figure out how to work around the gimmicks, it is not more difficult... You are just WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more limited. I no longer have incentive to play this game because I know that the next Chaos tier is just going to take away the ability to use more of my cool / fun towers. Let us not forget the assassins that will also limit where you can walk on the map. They take away your freedom to roam because if you aren't near anything that stuns them, you just automatically die. Then you spawn, take a few steps, and then you die again.


I would prefer to not have to stand in one spot while being limited down to 2-3 towers to be effective when there is SO much more cool stuff in the game that you are not allowed to use anymore.

Wow, you put it so incredibly well. Your comparison to Megaman is so fitting and to me perfectly explains why it feels bad/wrong/unfun (I don't care what adjective you want to use, it's not good). Thank you for voicing this! I hope Trendy considers your point. True hard counters is not what we need in chaos. There are excellent examples of how to turn them into softer counters that present challenges without taking away abilities.

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@SpiderDanX quote:

Calmchaos - On page 2, you seem to have quoted yourself and then respond to yourself.... did I miss something? Or are you quoting your March 9th post and then responding to my original post?

Yeah, I was quoting the March 9th post. Was trying to save you the time of clicking the link. ;)

I probably should've made that more clear.

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@Elyssae quote:
@iAndy quote:

You should definitely get that on video and either post it here or on the bug site. That would be a really annoying bug. I have seen one warp glitch and it was a long time ago and I caught the little bugger before he got to the core (it was one of those side-skipping goblins). I even saw it happen, he just *poofed* appeared behind the wall and started his little clockwork-orange skip towards the core. It was way back before the new chaos levels were introduced so that particular bug may have been fixed by now. 

If you have a nvidia graphics card, they have a thing that lets you playback the last 5 minutes of gameplay, you just save the file and upload it to youtube.  With how frequently they're happening to you, you could get a lot of stuff fixed. 

This has been reported several times and it's a common occurrence for more than just me. I'm also playing on PS4.

They're aware of it, but instead of fixing this shiat, they keep pooping out chaos Tier levels instead of focusing on the core game.

It would be nice for them to actually see it happen so they know what steps need to be done to reproduce it. I'm not trying to tell ya what to do. It's just that if you want to get it fixed, it shouldn't be too hard to get a video of it happening.  

I know the PS4 has a cool playback feature on it just like the Nvidia drivers have.  Next time it happens, hit that "share" button on the controller and see what options it gives you.  It's been a few months since I played anything on it. 

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I for one enjoy hard counters.  Ever try placing a bowl of soup on a soft counter? 

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SpiderDanX,

I'm by no means a master builder, so feel free to school me if I'm wrong, but I wanted to weight in here. My experience is only up to Max C4 and just beginning C5, so I cant speak for the entirety of Chaos.I'm not part of the vocal minority of unhappy players, and overall I am happy with the state of the game with the exception of multiplayer and some aspects of loot. But I am strongly against hard counters, which I believe exist currently and are prohibitive to creativity... depending on how your looking at Chaos overall.While looking at Chaos difficulties as a big picture (like you are), there are many metas. But that viewpoint is very hard to maintain as an individual player stuck in a specific chaos difficulty because I haven't built a specific hero(s) to tackle that Chaos tier’s gimmick. Also there are simply some heros that are not useful in certain Chaos levels, you seem to glance over that, but I do think every hero should be viable, just in lesser degrees.

For example:
- Geodes, unless I have a non-projectile based tower, or auras, my defense isn't going to win against them. 
- EMP Orcs flat out disabling certain hero auras.
- Assassins... sigh, I have no idea how to counter these. They silence, do massive damage, usually killing me before they die. So you need to standin radius of your towers to kill them, but they AOE so you have to be incredibly careful not to touch your 10k hp towers otherwise they insta-explode. These monster really feel cheap to me.

So in order for me to progress I need at least 3 heroes... a DPS hero, a builder with projectiles, and a builder with auras or no projectiles, and a Sky Guard tower (Debatable due to PDT, but they are too good at what they do). What if I don't want to make those heroes? What If I don't like how they work, what if I simply don't like them? Well I'm out of luck. I'm not going to beat Geodes with ballistas or a huntress, and I’m not going to beat EMP orcs with auras on the ground.To me this feels like cheap design, that also doubles as a stall tactic to have you create more heroes, or possibly if they are lucky, purchasing some heroes. And given the current state of loot, a nightmare to deal with.

What I would like to see is things more along the lines of Shield goblins and Steam rollers, but trickier and with more consequences. I've stated this somewhere before, but I would like hard counters replaces with more soft counters with consequences. 

For example, Geodes take maybe 75% less damage from heroes and projectile towers, and any damage from those sources is absorbed, and when a threshold is reached, they explode releasing all the damage received back out at the player/towers. This would be very brutal on towers, but this can be counteracted in some way. For example using electric attacks, or possibly freezing. I haven't fully fleshed this idea out but I think you get the idea.

For EMP orcs just reduce the effectiveness of towers by X%, but you can reduce this in some way with heros mechanics. I know this kind of steps on geodes territory but I just don't like the idea of outright disabling towers making certain heroes useless.

As for Assassins, I feel they need a complete rewrite. I don't even know how they can be adjusted to be fair in this current iteration. They were scary in DD1, and a force to be reckoned with, but now they are absolutely insane. Players are forced to build high DPS towers (Power/Speed/CD) to keep up with the increasing HP of monsters in their new chaos tiers, but at the expense of having a tower that dies in 1 hit. Pair this with a monster that silences, forcing you to be in range of towers for assistance, but also AOEs so there's a high chance your just screwed unless your towers out-tier the content, or you happen to have excessive levels of ascension and you’ve already done your gambit range.

My apologies for not having really viable replacement ideas, but I’m not really a game designer. But I hate the idea of being forced to do things a certain way. If I want to do something inefficiently or slower, let me do that, but make it so I WANT to build a new hero, not HAVE to build one.

If I want to attempt to brute force my way through content rather then finesse it with the proper tower-types, let me do that! But outright limiting me just makes feel bored and in some cases, annoyed.

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You can beat the whole game with the original four heroes.

These are all accessible to F2P players.

You can min max if you wish by having multiple heroes of each class for niche roles but you are not forced to do so.

The special enemy type approach is not where I would have gone but it by no means restricts anyone. There are better towers per Chaos tier but this is way better than the old PDT and GG of NM4 as was.

It's better but not there yet.

Dump the multiplayer scaling and only increase the number of mini bosses with more players. Trendy should be encouraging multiplayer so make it better loot for all the more players you have.

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I have been extremly vocal about the trials update and you of all people know it dan.

I have lost complete interest of the game since the update and every single time I get back to it to try out I get bored after a single map.

The game feels extremly mechanical, it's do this or die. There is no fun, no liberty. It feels as deep as a clicking simulator with just some pretended game mechanics. The first step towards the wrong direction was the steam roller and since then we had 7 other terribly designed monsters to add to the mix. I just don't get, DD1 mobs were cool, DD2 base monsters were cool. WHY do we need to have complete hard counter as absurd as this ? I mean DD1 handled special monsters very well, they were super challenging but weren't removing entirely one defense from the game the very second the monster pops on the map. I don't see the game having any future if the devs don't start seriously questionning their decisions and take time to properly consider players feedback. And on that last topic I have been the first to notice that our feedback was completely ignored. And if it wasn't a LOT of the problems we have at the moment would have been avoided (the "loot update" we are having for example would have been already included in the trials update).

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@Sombrero quote:

I have been extremly vocal about the trials update and you of all people know it dan.

I have lost complete interest of the game since the update and every single time I get back to it to try out I get bored after a single map.

The game feels extremly mechanical, it's do this or die. There is no fun, no liberty. It feels as deep as a clicking simulator with just some pretended game mechanics. The first step towards the wrong direction was the steam roller and since then we had 7 other terribly designed monsters to add to the mix. I just don't get, DD1 mobs were cool, DD2 base monsters were cool. WHY do we need to have complete hard counter as absurd as this ? I mean DD1 handled special monsters very well, they were super challenging but weren't removing entirely one defense from the game the very second the monster pops on the map. I don't see the game having any future if the devs don't start seriously questionning their decisions and take time to properly consider players feedback. And on that last topic I have been the first to notice that our feedback was completely ignored. And if it wasn't a LOT of the problems we have at the moment would have been avoided (the "loot update" we are having for example would have been already included in the trials update).

Just wondering, what in particular do you dislike about the steam roller?  

I thought it was overall well designed.  It can be killed by all heroes via its weak point, and its a nice stat check on barricades, and promotes anti-afk gameplay and hero engagement (not to hot on the anti-afk thing but whatever).  The only real issue I have with it is they might as well not have the red circles on the floor because the splash is definitely larger then the area displayed on the floor.

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the problem with rollers is they are much stronger than normal bosses.  that's about it really

anti-afk is pretty stupid in a tower defense game in the first place though.  just throwing that one out there

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To be honest, I really don't know the real # of player % that don't like these new mobs. To me, it seems less than 50%, but I could be wrong. Even still, there are many players who don't like them. 

This new loot update coming out actually shows that Trendy DOES listen to player feedback. Or to be more accurate, they do what we, the players/their customers, suggest. Not 100% of the time. Nor should they do 100% of what we say.  The extra shard slots? The extra stats? More gold? The community talked about all of these features at one point or another. Saying that Trendy doesn't listen is being disingenuous at the very least.


Trendy basically has 3 player bases...and I hate to use these terms. So, if someone has better terms, please correct me. Anyway, they are: Causal, Hard core and those somewhere in between. This is pretty much true of all or most video games. Where ever we find ourselves, we will always find things to disagree on. Meanwhile, TE (among other game companies) have this nearly impossible task to please all player bases 100% of the time. Trying to figure out who to please & when to please them is no easy task & I don't envy their position.


I feel like the players who are between hardcore & casual are most likely the larger part of their player base, whereas the other 2 groups are less than 50%. So....what does TE do to please everyone all the time? Nowhere really as that is never gonna happen.  But, they can please some players some of the time. I know plenty of ppl who either like the chaos mobs or don't mind them. I also know ppl who don't like them. Some of you on this thread on on my steam friends list. Others, I have had PM discussions with on the DD2 forums and consider you friends in that regard. 


I think this thread helps me understand where ppl are coming from. It also helps to have everything in 1 consolidated place (cuz ppl linked other threads and quoted other threads) for TE to see.


In the end, I have no doubt in my mind that TE DOES listen to their players (from all groups) and implements suggestions their players make. Not 100% of the time, but more than alot of other game companies. They seem to take turns listening/doing what this groups says & then do what that group says. When they please 1 side, the others groan. When they please another, the other sides groan. 


Anyway, this post just now was more rambling & just saying what came to mind as I typed.


TLDR:

1 - TE DOES do what they player base says. Just not 100% of the time.

2 - This conversation thread is good cuz it helps me understand & it gives TE a 1 stop shop of info about the chaos mobs.

3 - TE, & Game companies in general, have a hard time pleasing all of their player bases.

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@lifewater quote:


@Sombrero quote:

-snip-

Just wondering, what in particular do you dislike about the steam roller?  

I thought it was overall well designed.  It can be killed by all heroes via its weak point, and its a nice stat check on barricades, and promotes anti-afk gameplay and hero engagement (not to hot on the anti-afk thing but whatever).  The only real issue I have with it is they might as well not have the red circles on the floor because the splash is definitely larger then the area displayed on the floor.

Well for me it's because they are leagues ahead in terms of power and difficulty compared to the other bosses and that they have really annoying mechanics. Runs simply go by tangibly faster and easier when a roller does not spawn, especially when trying to transition to a higher chaos tier. If I came to you with the idea of making a mob counter every tower in a TD game, would you honestly greenlight it?

Adding onto their raw power, their attack are also glitchy. You often will take damage before the red circles appear and before any rockets are fired visually. Their attacks are more reliable than other bosses and more versatile (because they can literally reach at least half of most maps regardless of their position.) Oh and they are the most common enemies to get stuck in spawn. Massive frontwards damage reduction plus being stuck in spawn makes for some of the most amazing gameplay you can ever imagine.

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@ram1024 quote:

the problem with rollers is they are much stronger than normal bosses.  that's about it really

anti-afk is pretty stupid in a tower defense game in the first place though.  just throwing that one out there

Can you not 1 hit KO rollers yet? I can in ch1-5. Takes 2s hit in Ch6. Ch7? Many hits :-P
Also, gentle reminder that DD2 is NOT a tower defense game. It's not even an action RPG game. Trendy has gone on record 2-3 times this year to say that DD2 is an Action RPG Tower Defense game. There will be some things that towers are better at doing. There will be some things that heroes are better at doing. Use  both to win! :-)

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For me the biggest thing would be to fix the splash and damage indication because it's frustrating dying to a rocket that you cant actually see. That and make the goblin driving the fricken thing a weak spot as well. So you could actually start dpsing it when it comes out of spawn instead of having to wait for it to be far enough out to get behind. But it would still be entirely damage resistant to towers.

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cool how about you 1 shot that roller with 6 assassins on your back

that's what people entering chaos 5 face

"oh i have 2000 ascension and a C7 geared pole smash monk, i can 1 shot rollers in c5 so all your crying is invalid" - every post from this guy

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@ram1024 quote:

cool how about you 1 shot that roller with 6 assassins on your back

that's what people entering chaos 5 face

"oh i have 2000 ascension and a C7 geared pole smash monk, i can 1 shot rollers in c5 so all your crying is invalid" - every post from this guy

Also this. Talking about 1 shotting rollers doesn't help anyone who doesn't play as much as you or have the gear you do. That is not a constructive criticism or comment.

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@Ruuk quote:

For me the biggest thing would be to fix the splash and damage indication because it's frustrating dying to a rocket that you cant actually see. That and make the goblin driving the fricken thing a weak spot as well. So you could actually start dpsing it when it comes out of spawn instead of having to wait for it to be far enough out to get behind. But it would still be entirely damage resistant to towers.

I would like for the rockets to actually require Line of Sight to shoot at us, and to slow down the fire rate and rocket speed and let us shoot them out of the air. And yeah - make the goblin on top a soft spot and killing him stops the rockets. 

Monk is the preferred way to kill them - you can spam Chi Blast or Pole Smash, and with mostly AP gear and the right shards you can take them down pretty quick, and some HH helps. If we had the above you could stop the rockets and the range attack classes would be easier, but right now you do have to be careful. I think the red zones work decently if you are in a low ping/no lag game, but even small delays and it is not accurate. But you can (usually) keep moving in a pattern behind him, and mostly evade the rockets.

Almost forgot - since Trendy has admitted they want the Roller to be a big bad that you worry about, they should also make them drop some extra or special gear. Risk vs reward, and the Rollers were designed to be risks so beating them should be an extra reward!


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rollers or assassins, not both

balance this egg on spoon - challenge

take punches to the gut - challenge

hold egg on spoon while we punch you in the gut - why am i playing this game again?

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Also, I'm pretty sure the monk pole arm one-shot thing is a bug, so you're basically admitting to being an exploiter AND that people should exploit and abuse bugs to make up for this overpowered (compared to any other boss that can spawn in its place) enemy.

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it definitely is a bug.  when i went to try it out the damage SAID 600,000 but it clearly did 1,200,000

that's aside from the fact that other champ abilities only did 300,000 with those stats and were on heavy cooldowns and cost like 3 times the mana


lol

so it's only like... 8 times more powerful than it should be

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@SpiderDanX quote:

Can you not 1 hit KO rollers yet? I can in ch1-5. Takes 2s hit in Ch6. Ch7? Many hits :-P
Also, gentle reminder that DD2 is NOT a tower defense game. It's not even an action RPG game. Trendy has gone on record 2-3 times this year to say that DD2 is an Action RPG Tower Defense game. There will be some things that towers are better at doing. There will be some things that heroes are better at doing. Use  both to win! :-)

Better. This word right here is what is wrong with hard counters, and really the only thing I find frustrating about rollers. It isn't a case of "better", it's a case of "ONLY". 95% damage reduction is TOO extreme imo. I get you want to incentivise hero interaction with the rollers, but that's not incentivisation, that's a REQUIREMENT. They may as well be immune to defenses, because aside from a few lucky flamethrower positions on C6 and below (C7 kobolts say screw that lol), towers will do a whole lot of nothing to rollers.

Balance discussion aside (cause of course not all of us think they are too strong), the concept of FORCING us to have only one possible interaction with a mob of any kind is rather boring. Making one interaction better is fine, making there effectively only one interaction period is just annoying imo.

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