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@iamisom quote:

How would you feel if we removed the Assassin's healing when they go back to spawn? 

  • Remove the heal
  • Remove the buggy back to spawn behavior
  • Cap the silence attacks at 2/3s (that's more than enough)
  • Make them ALL come at the START of waves

HP and Damage is fine imo, you deal with them AT THE START OF EACH WAVE and then you can go help lanes, kill bosses, repair, etc. Emoji_Ogre.png Emoji_Skeleton.png

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Game is tested with such players in mind..... balance wise. Except new players need to go through "know how" phase. Or ask developers for "Soft Chaos" mode. skeleton.png

@Valthejean quote:


@MamaTata quote:

In similar scenarios you can sell 30 DU defense from the lane with less threats and boost hard lane with extra wall.... or build like that ahead....since bosses always come on same lanes... no surprises. You can call it a strategy.

Please don't soften up the game like you do sometimes.... like you did with Zapper. No threat from that bird now. Iamisom


Good grief.  If the problems I was talking about were solved by an additional wall I wouldn't have said anything.  I'm talking about direct threats that the player HAS to address while dealing with a direct counter to themselves.

Please DO soften up the game, because this constant moving towards making the game "challenging" to appease people who have scrapped together every possible advantage they can is leaving new players in the dust.  This is why I wanted wipes on release...


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@MamaTata quote:

Game is tested with such players in mind..... balance wise. Except new players need to go through "know how" phase. Or ask developers for "Soft Chaos" mode. skeleton.png


Then the game is a failure.  Catering the game to people who have stockpiles of gear they got from previous patches where the game played significantly different and are able to bypass entire sections of the game because of it is just asinine.  No one is going to want to start playing a game that is designed around "Well you weren't there before so suck it."  This is why wipes were valuable pre-alpha.  We had to start all over again, and never took advantages we built beforehand to bypass significant hurdles.  Right now new players are not having fun because the progression is completely absurd.  It's grindy and un-fun. 

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Thanks for the feedback! I'll share your thoughts with the design team.

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@iamisom quote:

How would you feel if we removed the Assassin's healing when they go back to spawn? 

yes i think it needs removed, as well replace the silence with a slow. Cause assassins coming out and making you unable to do anything at all when you have lanes that need babysat, is just impossible, and there's absolutely no way to beat it unless you massively level up your ascension to overpower it, or somehow get lucky and get that next Chaos level drop to plant another 2+k DP or DCD or both into your towers to overpower the content. Replacing silence with slow would be better for assassins, and at the same time make your heroes basic attacks unable to hit any attached assassin, so you have to use some special aoe skill in order to knock the assassin off if you get caught by one away from your defenses.

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I dunno [[72087,users]]. I don't think that is the solution. I talk to a bunch if newer players and players who have returned after not having played in 6+ months. Once it's explained to them on how to progress, they do it and they make things work. They say they are having fun.


For those who aren't having fun, I like [[64581,users]]'s idea: Softcore Chaos. She also explains that the game is tested while thinking about new players and players coming out of campaign. I can verify this is true. I think it just comes down to the "type" of player. Some of us like it hard, some of us like it easy.


Going back to the "softcore chaos" idea.... maybe instead on Chaos in and of itself being a difficulty, maybe each tier of chaos can have and "normal/hard/insane/Chaotic" difficulty. Then based off the difficulty, we get gear comparable to that difficulty. This way, all types of players can beat Chaos at their own difficulty level and at their own pace. Not everyone wants the best and toppest (I think I just made this word up?) grade tier. I think this would be the best way to appease all types of players.

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@SpiderDanX quote:

I dunno Jojozityjo. I don't think that is the solution. I talk to a bunch if newer players and players who have returned after not having played in 6+ months. Once it's explained to them on how to progress, they do it and they make things work. They say they are having fun.


For those who aren't having fun, I like MamaTata's idea: Softcore Chaos. She also explains that the game is tested while thinking about new players and players coming out of campaign. I can verify this is true. I think it just comes down to the "type" of player. Some of us like it hard, some of us like it easy.


Going back to the "softcore chaos" idea.... maybe instead on Chaos in and of itself being a difficulty, maybe each tier of chaos can have and "normal/hard/insane/Chaotic" difficulty. Then based off the difficulty, we get gear comparable to that difficulty. This way, all types of players can beat Chaos at their own difficulty level and at their own pace. Not everyone wants the best and toppest (I think I just made this word up?) grade tier. I think this would be the best way to appease all types of players.

okay im confused on wether or not you replied to the right thread or not .. my latest post was about assassins, not progression, so im a bit lost on where that response is coming from lol

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@SpiderDanX quote:

I think it just comes down to the "type" of player. Some of us like it hard, some of us like it easy

i don't think it's this at all.  the game is difficult for everyone just some people are getting that medallion on their 3rd "try" of a map and clear the whole tier easily from then on.  some people aren't getting the medallion after 20 tries and it's starting to wear on them.  they've gotten OTHER stuff and some ascension levels and it's SLOWLY getting easier, and sometimes no rollers spawn so they finally get a win and a chest, but other than that it's really painful grinding losing games until you get the one drop that trivializes the content

strategy-wise, you put towers behind walls.  it's not complicated.  there's not geniuses and dummies

skill-wise, you shoot the ogres from a distance and polesmash some rollers.  there's not master tier Counterstrikers and wood tier nooblets

the gap that separates the player base between successful and failing isn't incompetence it's luck

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@ram1024 quote:


@SpiderDanX quote:

I think it just comes down to the "type" of player. Some of us like it hard, some of us like it easy

i don't think it's this at all.  the game is difficult for everyone just some people are getting that medallion on their 3rd "try" of a map and clear the whole tier easily from then on.  some people aren't getting the medallion after 20 tries and it's starting to wear on them.  they've gotten OTHER stuff and some ascension levels and it's SLOWLY getting easier, and sometimes no rollers spawn so they finally get a win and a chest, but other than that it's really painful grinding losing games until you get the one drop that trivializes the content

strategy-wise, you put towers behind walls.  it's not complicated.  there's not geniuses and dummies

skill-wise, you shoot the ogres from a distance and polesmash some rollers.  there's not master tier Counterstrikers and wood tier nooblets

the gap that separates the player base between successful and failing isn't incompetence it's luck

I'll throw another component in there Ram, and that's willingness to grind low tier Chaos maps to death to build ascension. It's a successful tactic, but in no way is it entertaining to me.

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It comes down to the fact that killing Assassins in a timely manner requires significantly higher damage output compared to all other content in the same tier. You fix this either by nerfing their health, or increasing the window of time in which players can effectively fight back. Personally I think the latter option is much more appealing.

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You friend just made my day lolol. That sounds like a rough day indeed. 

@ram1024 quote:


@iamisom quote:

Are there any other melee heroes or melee combat swings that are having this issue?

How would you feel if we removed the Assassin's healing when they go back to spawn? 

Squire attacks push mobs around.  all of them i believe, will have to do testing on that.  didn't know different weighted weapons had different effects

as far as nerfing assassin heal that would help some.  but fixing how they skate around (and out of range of defenses and such) after they release you would help as well.  plus them going back to spawn while you're still alive...

you've simply cobbled together too many advantages for them.  my experience on them is:


running around on my DPS

purple kill you signal

die because can't change to tank

mash tank button on respawn

die again because it didn't change to tank

mash tank button on respawn

luckily get to change to tank squire

run to kill zone

mash seismic slam

kill one of the assassins while the others skate around and despawn

purple kill you signal

seismic slam

have to heal or die

choose to try and at least kill the assassin

assassin despawns and heals

mash heal for 2 seconds of heal

get no healing because was mashing heal which cancels your heal

assassin kills me

respawn

purple kill you signal

run to kill zone

roller has broken down the wall

mash seismic slam

finally kill assassin

change to DPS

run to roller

get purple kill you signal halfway there...

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@iamisom quote:

Thanks for the feedback! I'll share your thoughts with the design team.

I'm curious as to whether assassins destroying cores/defenses is intended by the design team or just an oversight.

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cool game i get to spend 10 minutes hitting G 12 times cause you keep giving me underbudget maps when i'm breaking into a new tier of progression

very compelling game!

hits G again

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It's like a slot machine. Hey, maybe they could make it more entertaining and when you hit continue, show the old Jester wheel animation with the system randomly stopping the wheels. If it comes up with 3 crystals you get to choose the next map.

At least it might be compelling to some that way.

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lol i dropped a buff beam and boost aura on a weapon manufacturer

and it raised the DPS on tavern dummy by 1.036%

statistically it did nothing at all


well worth the 100 mana and DU spent on it!

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that face when the game decides it knows better than you where you want your shots to go Emoji_Monk.png

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On my Mystic, about half the time when I use any ranged attacks or abilities they go straight into the ground at my feet regardless of where I aim.

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Just throwing an idea out there, since many issues with these guys surround having to multi task and while it -un-rewarding to run multiplayer. Perhaps it could be made that they simply wont spawn when another boss type is present on the map and vice versa?

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Assassins help break the whole wanting to play your hero how you like.

You want to play a full dmg Gunwitch, great, you can manage roller rockets with some good movement and cc. That is until you hit c5, then you are boned and have to dump ascension and gear into hp or you get one shot by assassins or don't survive long enough for defenses to get them off. Not only that but you need HARD cc to actually remove an assassin from you. Maybe if you had some mechanic where a good use of broom vault or book drop. Or make the assassin silence attack like the Siege rollers rockets make it target an area that if you dodge out if it you can dodge the lock down. Forcing players to build hp or switch to a tank is really counter to the playing a hero the way you want to.

Aside from ascension basically countering it's own purpose. You want a walling squire, great dump all points into wall hp, but if you want a cannon squire as well you either need to redo ascension or have a second squire with all points dumped into cannon dmg, defense rate, range gambit, crit,,and crit dmg. The old style of having one builder tricked out in the best defensive buffing gear was more intuitive than ascension, at least then all of their defense could be used.

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you know what happens when you skillfully broom vault or death from above an assassin at the exact right time to get away from his murderous attempt?

he just flies up and stabs you in the head afterwards.  no big deal

too bad your skill means nothing

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Yea, I love how pro-assassin people say we just need to git gud when it comes to dealing with assassins.  Assassins aren't about player skill.  They're the OPPOSITE of player skill.  "Dealing" with assassins literally involves dong NOTHING.  You just sit in your kill box until the stupid things are off you and maybe then whack them a bit before they're dead.  No amount of player skill gives you any other option to deal with them.  They're 100% unavoidable so your skill doesn't matter at all.

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@Ruuk quote:

Assassins help break the whole wanting to play your hero how you like.

You want to play a full dmg Gunwitch, great, you can manage roller rockets with some good movement and cc. That is until you hit c5, then you are boned and have to dump ascension and gear into hp or you get one shot by assassins or don't survive long enough for defenses to get them off. Not only that but you need HARD cc to actually remove an assassin from you. Maybe if you had some mechanic where a good use of broom vault or book drop. Or make the assassin silence attack like the Siege rollers rockets make it target an area that if you dodge out if it you can dodge the lock down. Forcing players to build hp or switch to a tank is really counter to the playing a hero the way you want to.

Aside from ascension basically countering it's own purpose. You want a walling squire, great dump all points into wall hp, but if you want a cannon squire as well you either need to redo ascension or have a second squire with all points dumped into cannon dmg, defense rate, range gambit, crit,,and crit dmg. The old style of having one builder tricked out in the best defensive buffing gear was more intuitive than ascension, at least then all of their defense could be used.

The assassin thing... 100% agree on. I've been wanting for a while a way that we can stop the silence BEFORE it happens, so we could actually build a DPS char without 100k+ HP...

But as far as ascension... I don't think it's as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Yeah, you're right, if you spec into walls, you don't have the points to spec into cannons. And I will concede that range gambits make using 2 DPS towers effectively near impossible for a lot of heroes, and I'd love to see that fixed.

But for the most part, it's still better than we had imo, since we can now put specific relics/passives per tower. Sure, you need 1 char per tower for 100% optimal builders, but I think that's fair... Why should a specialist builder not be stronger? But you can easily get away with your cannon squire building your walls thanks to the other changes. It's more than enough HP to hold your strong cannons. And if the hero has any utility towers (i.e. sandtraps or frosties) you can place those with pretty much any hero and be perfectly fine.

And above all else... you don't NEED ascension to beat this game. I beat C7 with C5/C6 items and less than 100 ascension. Sure, ascension isn't perfect, but I still believe it's in a decent place, and the fact that it's far from required is why I think it's a very small issue compared to many of the other things bugging the game atm.

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The thing about Assassins is by Ch5, pretty much the only thing left to counter is the hero. Other than heroes, there are walls (which have their counter in ch6). Not saying that is good or bad, it just is. There are a few ways to stop the assassin from staying on you, or even potentially getting on you in the 1st place. Here they are:

1 - Mystic Snaking Sands (natural stun)

2 - Lavamancer Oil Geysers (stuns with shard)

3 - Lavamancer Maw of the Earthdrake wall (petrifies assassins)

4 - Squire wall (once you have the stun shard)

5 - Apprentice Frosty tower (once you have the freeze shard)

6 - EV2 Proton Beam (once you have the Frosty nodes)

There ya go! 6 ways to counter the hero counter. And 1/2 of them can't be countered by anything in chaos 5. :-)

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