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mindlessdefender

Weapon Manufacture, PDT, Flame aura need nerfs.

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Let´s just wait they promised to do fixing the main bugs now this is much higher topic then nerfing the towers which are OP in your eyes.

I honestly think this game is now in the best shape ever - if they will fix the annoying bugs like lady orc jumping over defense or skeleton spawn behind barricade. It will be almost perfect.

I bet there will be nerfs, as usual Trendy´s testing system is let´s do it and players will shout - but it works actually we are testers for free:) this is business.

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well flame Aura is to strong as well. it can hit emp Flyers while fissures cant. slightly more dps then fissures but slightly less range.


wep manu right now is to strong. the Thing is it delivers you with a lvl3 flameaura/node so with 3 nodes you basically have a lvl3 flameaura for 40 mana. it doesnt matter that you cant upgrade it i think having it like that is a good design choice. the Thing is a lvl3 flame Aura is 30 DU and 180 mana.


so for having to spend an average 10 DU more/node then for an Aura you get a 150 mana boost since you dont have to upgrade. 150 mana you save for every single node. so if i just place 15 nodes on a map i spend 150 DU and mana more then with auras but you essentially save yourself 2250 mana for Upgrades now you have to take the 150 you spend more into account as well and you still have a net gain of 2100 mana. with this mana you can upgrade the rest of your defenses.


as we all know a lvl3 flameaura destroy the lane anyway except maybe for Lady orcs and bosses depending on the number you place. so not only is the WM giving you an insane early game with essentially lvl3 flame auras before wave 1, it also saves you a ridiculous amount of mana which you can use to max out the rest.


so in order to bring WM back into the line reduce the amount dmg it deals by 50% to not only bring it down to lvl2 flameaura stats instead of lvl3 but give it an additional slight nerf on top since flame auras are to strong as well. right now my WM deals over 630k dps while having a rangeshard equipped for each node and it can hit air!!! if we reduce the dmg by 50% it still has 315k AOE dps for an average of 40 DU.


in Addition to the dmg nerf reduce the DU/Mana cost of the initial Building from 30 to 10 DU/Mana. this way you are not so limited in Terms of Building stuff. pre nerf you would have 15750 dps/mana spend, post nerf you would have 9450 dps/mana spend. this would reduce the dps/mana spend by exactly 40% which is a reasonable nerf to begin with.


WM should be doing more dps in the early game but no Chance to scale into the lategame. thats why i said ist a good design choice. if you make it lower dps and upgradable its just a second flame Aura. attacks air as well, deals same dmg has same radius, ... if you want to have diversity you dont want WM to be upgradable. even if WM is on a dps Ratio on par with a lvl2 flameaura it saves you 50mana/node for Upgrades but costs 10 DU and mana more to build. you still have a reasonable amount of saved mana but since you cant upgrade it you dont want to have to many of them cause they get more useless the higher the waves get.


thats how i would Change WM. sure they Need to buff lots of Towers and rework lots of Towers as well but some are to strong currently. even if you Balance them all to the lvl of Flames and WMs the game would become even easier. so a nerf is necessary at that Point.

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@DP2118 quote:


@enigma007 quote:
@ram1024 quote:

beat C5-C7 at 0 ascension with these "working" towers

anything works with enough ascension points :P

i beat my first c7 map at 137 ascension with these towers. didn't take much effort.

at 180 ascension and with highest stat relics i was able to carry public c7 games with campaign gear guys.

and i'm not even good at this game.

they definitely need to nerf some stuff.

So you had the highest stat relics, but were still only wearing campaign gear. Curious as to how you had absolutely nothing but relics drop from Chaos 1-7.

Or is it just like the rest of your post, a complete load of crap.

he said "with" campaign gear guys. the peeps in his Pub C7 had only campaign gear not he himself.


even if someone would carry him C7 as Long as he only has campaign gear he gets not even C2 gear since the stats depend on your dps gear.

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@H3M1V3 quote:

-snip-

Hmm... In regards to the WM, I kinda see your point as to why it's a problem with DU/DPS. Especially since with the amount of mana we get most maps, T3 is usually as high as everything gets...

So kinda curious from your perspective (since you want them nerfed), what you would think if we could convince them to go back to their old system where mana cost != DU usage. Meaning we could make the weapon man STILL use 120 DU for the same power, but instead cost something like 200 mana, so we're paying more for a little early power, while saving later for not upgrading.

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Never in DD2 history have so many tower options been viable. The past month I have done so many different builds, it's basically the only thing that keeps me interested while grinding out the same 4 maps over and over -- I get to change my builds as often as I see fit. 

Idk if specific tower nerfs are needed, tower buffs to the less used/viable ones however.... Also tweaks to the latest crit changes and maybe a buff to power to compensate this change could work wonders too.

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@[UMF] Filthylopez quote:

Never in DD2 history have so many tower options been viable. The past month I have done so many different builds, it's basically the only thing that keeps me interested while grinding out the same 4 maps over and over -- I get to change my builds as often as I see fit. 

Idk if specific tower nerfs are needed, tower buffs to the less used/viable ones however.... Also tweaks to the latest crit changes and maybe a buff to power to compensate this change could work wonders too.

well the nerf i suggested is if they dont Change crit and to be honest they have to Change crit. their critmultiplier is 5 times higher then the dp Multiplier. since the only viable Option atm is going for 30% critchance. so if you have the same amount of crit as dp you deal on average 30% of its dps. if you go for 5 times the amount on average you deal 150% the dmg of the dp build. so in that regard its already a stupid System. in Addition to that its completly highrole with just 30% critchance and it destroys the reason for the critchance shard to exist.

thats why i would increase the critchance cap to 50%.


in Addition to this you would have to nerf the critmultiplier to 200% so if you only have a relic with 1 stat either dp or crit a defense should have the exact same dps with both of them. the Thing is that you Need 1 shard already. where a dp build does not.


so in this case you would have to Balance it around the 35% critchance you have without the shard which is an awkward number. the Thing is the critchance you get from Ascension and basecritchance is available for builds that use Medaillons as well. which throws the Balance all over the place again. so we Need a System that keeps the critchance of defenses low when a Medaillon is used but high if you use a mark.


so we have to give certain relics, certain power ups. due to having to adjust the critmultiplier a bit up from 200% for balancing reasons we cant leave the critchance shard at 15% with 100% Multiplier 15% Chance would be a 15% increase in dps. with 200% it would be a 30% dps increase if you go higher it will go higher as well.



the solution would be to reduce the basecritchance to 5% and Ascension to 15%. if you leave ascension at 20% then you will see builds with med that has crit and Speed and use power trans, critchance and critdmg to often.

but thats not all. critchance shard is now 10% instead of 15% and a mark buffs that defense another 20% critchance. this way a critbuild is alot more effective when using a mark and you can reach 50% that way. new Players have 25% critchance when using a mark and when not they shouldnt care about crits anyway.


now you have clean numbers. 40% critchance without critchance shard means you Need a 250% crit Multiplier and a 100% dp Multiplier so both are on equal Turf. now the dps is balanced between Medaillons and marks without shards. since Progress should be balanced around having a challenge it is easy to do with straightforward DP builds.

so using a critbuild that has on average the same dps wouldnt be used, cause even with 50% critchance it would lack the consistency of a dp build. you can highrole and kill the lane easier but at the same time you can lowrole and get completly crushed which is not helpful for Progression and makes no sense when playing a risk/reward build like critbuilds.


so you have to increase the critmultiplier a bit (but not in a way like trendy did holy ***). if you go with 275% instead of 250% you have 25% more critdmg with a 40% Chance which means you effectively have 10% more dps then a dp build.

thats a reasonable amount. highrole is minimized since you have up to 50% critchance and on average you have 10% more dps which is helpful for Progression. you can lowrole but even then you can compensate for Little Spikes due to the higher average dps.


now we end up with the critchance shard. right now its balanced around 40% crit. if you add a 10% critchance to a 275% Multiplier you have on average a 27.5% dps increase. a reasonable amount if you think about 33% atk rate, 34% dp, 34% critdmg and this stuff. thats why i reduced the critchance gain to 10% on that shard. with 15% you would be beyond 40% dps increase.


but to come to an end. 27.5% dps increase from critdmg through 10% critchance increase is nice and i would even use it over a critdmg shard if i had only 1 shardslot open. the reason again is consistency. i would already have a bit more dps then a dp build so going down the consistency line is more helpful since a dp build is 100% consistency, critbuilds are not.


thats my opinion about the crit System. as i said the dmg nerf to WM is only like i described it in the other post if nothing is changing in Terms of the crit System. the Thing is the critsystem has to Change and this is how i would do it. shards Need a Balance as well afterwards, but for the beginning thats for crit.

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@H3M1V3 quote:

well the nerf i suggested is if they dont Change crit and to be honest they have to Change crit. their critmultiplier is 5 times higher then the dp Multiplier. since the only viable Option atm is going for 30% critchance. so if you have the same amount of crit as dp you deal on average 30% of its dps. if you go for 5 times the amount on average you deal 150% the dmg of the dp build. so in that regard its already a stupid System. in Addition to that its completly highrole with just 30% critchance and it destroys the reason for the critchance shard to exist.

thats why i would increase the critchance cap to 50%.


in Addition to this you would have to nerf the critmultiplier to 200% so if you only have a relic with 1 stat either dp or crit a defense should have the exact same dps with both of them. the Thing is that you Need 1 shard already. where a dp build does not.


so in this case you would have to Balance it around the 35% critchance you have without the shard which is an awkward number. the Thing is the critchance you get from Ascension and basecritchance is available for builds that use Medaillons as well. which throws the Balance all over the place again. so we Need a System that keeps the critchance of defenses low when a Medaillon is used but high if you use a mark.


so we have to give certain relics, certain power ups. due to having to adjust the critmultiplier a bit up from 200% for balancing reasons we cant leave the critchance shard at 15% with 100% Multiplier 15% Chance would be a 15% increase in dps. with 200% it would be a 30% dps increase if you go higher it will go higher as well.



the solution would be to reduce the basecritchance to 5% and Ascension to 15%. if you leave ascension at 20% then you will see builds with med that has crit and Speed and use power trans, critchance and critdmg to often.

but thats not all. critchance shard is now 10% instead of 15% and a mark buffs that defense another 20% critchance. this way a critbuild is alot more effective when using a mark and you can reach 50% that way. new Players have 25% critchance when using a mark and when not they shouldnt care about crits anyway.


now you have clean numbers. 40% critchance without critchance shard means you Need a 250% crit Multiplier and a 100% dp Multiplier so both are on equal Turf. now the dps is balanced between Medaillons and marks without shards. since Progress should be balanced around having a challenge it is easy to do with straightforward DP builds.

so using a critbuild that has on average the same dps wouldnt be used, cause even with 50% critchance it would lack the consistency of a dp build. you can highrole and kill the lane easier but at the same time you can lowrole and get completly crushed which is not helpful for Progression and makes no sense when playing a risk/reward build like critbuilds.


so you have to increase the critmultiplier a bit (but not in a way like trendy did holy ***). if you go with 275% instead of 250% you have 25% more critdmg with a 40% Chance which means you effectively have 10% more dps then a dp build.

thats a reasonable amount. highrole is minimized since you have up to 50% critchance and on average you have 10% more dps which is helpful for Progression. you can lowrole but even then you can compensate for Little Spikes due to the higher average dps.


now we end up with the critchance shard. right now its balanced around 40% crit. if you add a 10% critchance to a 275% Multiplier you have on average a 27.5% dps increase. a reasonable amount if you think about 33% atk rate, 34% dp, 34% critdmg and this stuff. thats why i reduced the critchance gain to 10% on that shard. with 15% you would be beyond 40% dps increase.


but to come to an end. 27.5% dps increase from critdmg through 10% critchance increase is nice and i would even use it over a critdmg shard if i had only 1 shardslot open. the reason again is consistency. i would already have a bit more dps then a dp build so going down the consistency line is more helpful since a dp build is 100% consistency, critbuilds are not.


thats my opinion about the crit System. as i said the dmg nerf to WM is only like i described it in the other post if nothing is changing in Terms of the crit System. the Thing is the critsystem has to Change and this is how i would do it. shards Need a Balance as well afterwards, but for the beginning thats for crit.

That was a lot to take in but I think you're heading in the right direction.
The C.Chance shard definitely needs to be made viable, combining it with the dmg shard (once scalars have been adjusted) is something I'd like (chance and damage would likely be mandatory and one shard slot for most crit builds is lame IMO).

I 100% agree that a mark should be always better for crit builds. Medallion with power transfer is just crazy amounts of dps compared to a mark so I've never used a mark yet, except for testing.

I am sure Trendy already have an idea of what they are going to do, there's no way they will leave crit at these numbers. Heaps of balancing to come before the game leaves EA, but when is the question. Patience is always needed with DD2 :D

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i think crit should have been designed to be a % of your damage or ability power attacks.  this whole arbitrary external damage is cute because you can get a situation where you do NO damage unless you actually crit (kills goblin gliders if crit, if no crit goblin takes no damage and doesn't divebomb)

but other than that niche case, there is no reason to do crit DIFFERENTLY than any other game in the world does it.  50% more damage base, and adding additional % the more points you get into crit damage

crit chance should never have a cap, it's already self-capped at 100%.  if someone is crazy enough to fully gear crit chance and make the sacrifice why not let him see ONLY big red numbers.  that sounds hilarious and fun

if it's not balanced, tune the percentage gains down till it IS.  you have 1 control knob that you can use to balance everything.  it's so simple a caveman could do it

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@[UMF] Filthylopez quote:


@H3M1V3 quote:

snip

That was a lot to take in but I think you're heading in the right direction.
The C.Chance shard definitely needs to be made viable, combining it with the dmg shard (once scalars have been adjusted) is something I'd like (chance and damage would likely be mandatory and one shard slot for most crit builds is lame IMO).

I 100% agree that a mark should be always better for crit builds. Medallion with power transfer is just crazy amounts of dps compared to a mark so I've never used a mark yet, except for testing.

I am sure Trendy already have an idea of what they are going to do, there's no way they will leave crit at these numbers. Heaps of balancing to come before the game leaves EA, but when is the question. Patience is always needed with DD2 :D

well it took some time to write this stuff as well. reading is still faster then writing^^ but even with 50% critchance a critbuild is still not 100% consistent. thats why giving it 10% more dps on average is the right way. it is still risk/reward cause you want consistency for hard Content so you can actually rely on your def.


if i have a dp build and i know they always deal enough dmg to kill a lane i know which lane i can rely on and where i have to help out. a crit build with the same average dps can still lowrole and mess a lane up even tough the average is the same dps. so you cant rely on it and if you a lane with a dp build can just hold itself a critbuild with 50% Chance can *** you up when only lowrolling an average 35-40% critchance for a short time already. if you then have to leave the lane you defend you have opened a new weak spot.


thats why 10% more dps on average is a good value. its enough to make up for no insane lowroles, but isnt to high to make lowroles irrelevant.

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i even think that having vamp emp is a good Thing, but having power trans is bad. you dont have crit -> dp or hp -> crit. i think that they should Change power trans to give you 60% of your hp as crit.

this way you can even make a totem build with vamp and power trans.the mainissue with the current power trans is that the dp gain from destr isnt buffing power trans further, but the dp from vamp emp does buff the critgain from power trans.

if i go for explosive traps f.e. i use power trans, vamp emp and atk rate with a Medaillon that has hp and Speed. i get a bunch of charges and i have 5% more dps then with using destr instead of vamp.


@ram1024 quote:

i think crit should have been designed to be a % of your damage or ability power attacks.  this whole arbitrary external damage is cute because you can get a situation where you do NO damage unless you actually crit (kills goblin gliders if crit, if no crit goblin takes no damage and doesn't divebomb)

but other than that niche case, there is no reason to do crit DIFFERENTLY than any other game in the world does it.  50% more damage base, and adding additional % the more points you get into crit damage

crit chance should never have a cap, it's already self-capped at 100%.  if someone is crazy enough to fully gear crit chance and make the sacrifice why not let him see ONLY big red numbers.  that sounds hilarious and fun

if it's not balanced, tune the percentage gains down till it IS.  you have 1 control knob that you can use to balance everything.  it's so simple a caveman could do it

well the way we made it in Rift when Progress raiding was to cap out critchance and critdmg and after that go for basedmg. with 5 peeps the critbuild was a bit worse but in a 10man or 20man the Focus on critdmg and critchance payed off. in Addition to our capped critchance which was hardcapped at 45% i think we got 2 times 5% from Supports and another 5% through a debuff from a dps to a total of 60% and with passive critchance increase from our souls we mostly had 10-15% more crit on top of that since they were added after the cap so in the end we had 70-75% critchance. basecrit dealt +50% dmg but with capped critdmg we had +100% or +120% sth like that.

going alot higher then the 70-75% critchance made no sense for us since we made it rlly consistent already and some skills or cooldowns added Chance to crit on top of that anyway so we ended with full CDs at 90%+ critchance anyway. still the game was challenging when Progress raiding and the Content was made easier for casuals anyway after a while



with that System both stats had their place cause crits scaled off of the basedmg. the Thing was for raiding the only way to go was for max critdmg and Chance first so there was only 1 Option. here you have seperate values for it but that if properly executed can be a Chance to more variety. you can make crit slightly stronger Overall but it lacks the 100% consistency of an all out dp build.

this way you can choose if you wanna go down the consistency line or if you want to go the risk/reward line, but the execution right now is pretty poor and the Overall balancing is off as well.



on top of that i was hyped when they said that they give us C6 and C7 but i mean making C7 in C5 gear was a bit boring and i expected more of a challenge. i mean a casual Player is stuck between C1-C5 anyway they shouldnt bother about high endgame and if they do they have the same Chance as anyone. make the new chaos Tiers hard and then nerf hp and dmg from enemies after like 2 months by 10-15%. this way even the hardest casuals can do it.

you dont roadblock the casual Gamers. even a casual gamer wants to have fun and if they already brainafk farmed C5 i dont think that all they want is to brainafk farm C7 for 6 months. its not that C7 brings sth incredibly awesome to the table. if you nerf everything to the ground a week after or release it in such a state already then a casual is cheesing the way to C7 fast and then?


a casual is someone who does not have much time to Play and wants to have fun in that short time without being limited to much by insane lvl grinds be it actual lvls or Ascension lvls *chrm chrm* or farming days and days for mats to craft 1 item. its not like they dont want a challenge. a casual has sth better to do then being frustrated by the game or doing nothing else then brainafk grinding in the short time he/she is playing the game. thats why i dislike making C6 and C7 so easy.

zapper nerf was to much. the game isnt balanced yet you nerf the enemies into the ground. zapper atm is like *whatever*.


oh dear that post is pretty Long again. but well it had to be said.

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@ram1024 quote:

i think crit should have been designed to be a % of your damage or ability power attacks.  this whole arbitrary external damage is cute because you can get a situation where you do NO damage unless you actually crit (kills goblin gliders if crit, if no crit goblin takes no damage and doesn't divebomb)

but other than that niche case, there is no reason to do crit DIFFERENTLY than any other game in the world does it.  50% more damage base, and adding additional % the more points you get into crit damage

crit chance should never have a cap, it's already self-capped at 100%.  if someone is crazy enough to fully gear crit chance and make the sacrifice why not let him see ONLY big red numbers.  that sounds hilarious and fun

if it's not balanced, tune the percentage gains down till it IS.  you have 1 control knob that you can use to balance everything.  it's so simple a caveman could do it

I strongly disagree with this, because that would mean that crit would never be viable on its own.

Right now for hero stats, you can use any combination of hero stats and they work. HH + HCD works great. AP + HCD also works great. Even builds without HCD work as well.

Changing crit to be dependent on hero damage or defense power would instantly nullify those combos. Any gear that rolls crit without its damage counterpart would be instantly useless. They would have to change gear so only crit damage would roll alongside hero damage or defense power. That severely limits viable playstyle options, and I do not want that. Crit damage is a strong independent stat that don't need no base damage. It deserves to stay that way.

The issue at hand here is ascension point allocation, specifically the fact that a player can dump all their points into a tower's damage boost, AND crit damage as well. What needs to happen is the following:

  • The entire utility section needs to go away. Just have a hero section, a defense section, and that's it. Everything in the utility section can easily fit under hero/defense anyway, so I'm not sure why it was ever included in the first place.
  • Individual tower + ability boosts need to go away as well. Make us choose between all towers defense power boost, or all towers defense crit damage boost. This adds the bonus of not needing a separate hero dedicated to a single defense.
  • Power transfer shard could use some balancing adjustment as well

From there, adjust the crit scaling to be at a point where the reliable damage of DP builds are equal with the unreliability + bonus damage of crit builds. I anticipate the happy medium would be somewhere around 20% higher DPS for a crit build vs a DP build. When you factor in other things like overkill, that seems like a pretty solid place.

In short, yes crit has issues right now, but chaining it to DP/HD will not fix it. Creating better siloes between damage and crit will make them much easier to balance against each other.

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@ram1024 quote:

crit chance should never have a cap, it's already self-capped at 100%.  if someone is crazy enough to fully gear crit chance and make the sacrifice why not let him see ONLY big red numbers.  that sounds hilarious and fun

if it's not balanced, tune the percentage gains down till it IS.  you have 1 control knob that you can use to balance everything.  it's so simple a caveman could do it

I should also add here: You probably weren't around for this, but crit chance actually used to be a stat that rolled on gear at one point. It was removed because 1) it was impossible to balance; and 2) the two stats were 100% dependent on each other. As you progressed, crit damage and crit chance both increased, creating an exponential curve. Gear that rolled with only one or the other was unequivocally trash. Both these stats were 100% worthless early game and 100% required late game. While it might sound hilarious and fun on paper, that playstyle would eventually be the only way to spec towers. It was not by any means "fun", because there were no other options.

Regarding 100% crit chance: isn't that basically the exact same thing as DP, but without the big red numbers? A non-capped crit chance is literally trying to make a linear line (DP) fit with an exponential curve (crit). And if after reading this you still want this to work, then you have no right to complain about comparing DP/DCD viability since it is a paradox.

Crit needs a cap so it can stay relevant and viable alongside DP throughout the development of the game. If ultimate balance between damage/crit is desired, then making crit chance a non-adjustable static number would be the most effecient way to do it. That would make both crit and damage linear, which would then simply be a matter of adjusting crit chance to crit scaling.

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@gigazelle quote:

-snip-

The only thing I don't understand about the crit cap... is why it's a hard coded number? Why not let our availability to the stat be our cap? If that were the case our current cap would still only be 45% (at the expense of a different damage shard, really resulting in around the same DPS), but instead there is that random 33% cap. Of course I ask this as a person who still dislikes that defenses have crit to begin with... but meh.

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In my opinion stat availability should be the cap (and it has been at varying points in time), but I think it was implemented as a way for early gamers to be able to hit that cap early. The earlier a player can hit the cap, the sooner crit damage becomes a relevant stat. Until that point, it's pretty worthless since the low exponent (crit chance) actually hinders the player if they invest in crit damage.

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@gigazelle quote:

I strongly disagree with this, because that would mean that crit would never be viable on its own.

Right now for hero stats, you can use any combination of hero stats and they work. HH + HCD works great. AP + HCD also works great. Even builds without HCD work as well

HH/CD is not a dps build

it may "work" but nothing prevents it from working in the other system either as it is a multiplier off the base damage

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@DP2118 quote:


@enigma007 quote:
@ram1024 quote:

beat C5-C7 at 0 ascension with these "working" towers

anything works with enough ascension points :P

i beat my first c7 map at 137 ascension with these towers. didn't take much effort.

at 180 ascension and with highest stat relics i was able to carry public c7 games with campaign gear guys.

and i'm not even good at this game.

they definitely need to nerf some stuff.

So you had the highest stat relics, but were still only wearing campaign gear. Curious as to how you had absolutely nothing but relics drop from Chaos 1-7.

Or is it just like the rest of your post, a complete load of crap.

read carefully next time.

i said: 

1. i had somewhat low ascension level and c7 gear. 

2. i was able to carry a team of random players who had campaign gear. 

it is true and it shouldn't be possible. some towers are too overpowered compared to the others.

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@enigma007 quote:

read carefully next time.

i said: 

1. i had somewhat low ascension level and c7 gear. 

2. i was able to carry a team of random players who had campaign gear. 

it is true and it shouldn't be possible. some towers are too overpowered compared to the others.

Of course its possible? How much do you think geared heroes do for the game? 70% of the work a hero does is running around repairing. Sure, you can burn bosses down faster with an OP team, but you could just as easily have a level 50 in campaign gear just heal your wall, because even if they were C7 geared, if you can't live with just wall repairs, you're most likely going to lose regardless. It's just how the game is.

Even if they didn't repair, one person can still manage alone. When breaking into a new tier, I usually had MORE trouble if I wasted too much time DPSing instead of running around checking on my walls. If you're metric of "too strong" is because you can play the game with 4 people (as Trendy has pretty much intended the game to be played), I'm sorry, but I can't accept that as a useful metric.

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@xArcAngel quote:

When breaking into a new tier, I usually had MORE trouble if I wasted too much time DPSing instead of running around checking on my walls.

This right here. The bane of my existence.

Overconfidence in your walls is a rapid and malicious killer.

It doesn't matter how tough you think they are. They're butter. The moment you think it's fine to stay in a lane and play whack-a-mole with little gobus, your walls will melt to the heat.

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@calmchaos quote:

your walls will melt to the heat.

it's the mages.  they're the silent killers.  they don't deal much damage with their bolts, but the guys they raise seem to get a free instant hit on ressurection (or they do some kinda aoe damage coming out of the ground)

in any case, 2 mages coming out and chain ressing will crush your defenses super fast.  if you use a spawn camping build you gotta beware!

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I personally feel that the OP just want DD2 to be more challenging than it is (or is intended to be). He wants to prolong the 'journey', which is completely understandable, but (imho) unrealistic / overall-worse for this game.


Being able to find a given build that wreaks havoc on a given chaos tier (or tiers), is fantastic. Some builds WILL be OP and let you quickly (ish) progress compared to the vast majority of others. I personally like this. The current gap is more that there should be maybe 1-2 more builds that have the same power.


Lastly, I don't think Ascension points should be seen as any sort of hard-gate. Albeit, getting the 20/20 in def crit kinda feels like that. Sure, it can function as a soft-gate, for those that struggle (either by choice or due to reasons of 'skill'), as well as function as a relatively OP mechanic if you suddenly have people that pull vastly ahead of the curve. But, there is 0 reason why someone above just ~100 ascension points shouldn't be able to clear c7 solo (whilst solo progressing) - YMMV.


NB: I do agree that the XP/Ascension curve is less than ideal atm (there was a great suggestion about doubling the XP needed every 100 lvls).
NB: I also agree that more builds should be able to function whilst 'breaking in' to a new chaos tier (a lot of builds function after you've broken in).

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@xArcAngel quote:
@enigma007 quote:

read carefully next time.

i said: 

1. i had somewhat low ascension level and c7 gear. 

2. i was able to carry a team of random players who had campaign gear. 

it is true and it shouldn't be possible. some towers are too overpowered compared to the others.

Of course its possible? How much do you think geared heroes do for the game? 70% of the work a hero does is running around repairing. Sure, you can burn bosses down faster with an OP team, but you could just as easily have a level 50 in campaign gear just heal your wall, because even if they were C7 geared, if you can't live with just wall repairs, you're most likely going to lose regardless. It's just how the game is.

Even if they didn't repair, one person can still manage alone. When breaking into a new tier, I usually had MORE trouble if I wasted too much time DPSing instead of running around checking on my walls. If you're metric of "too strong" is because you can play the game with 4 people (as Trendy has pretty much intended the game to be played), I'm sorry, but I can't accept that as a useful metric.

well, that's the thing. if this game is designed for group play, you shouldn't be able to win a map by being the only active player in a group. especially if you can do it by using only 1 type of tower (flame aura / wm) and only 1 button (repair). 

even group scaling can't overwhelm the OPness of those towers. it has nothing to do with how the game intended to be played. otherwise, the nimbus aoe wouldn't be removed from the game.

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@enigma007 quote:

well, that's the thing. if this game is designed for group play, you shouldn't be able to win a map by being the only active player in a group. especially if you can do it by using only 1 type of tower (flame aura / wm) and only 1 button (repair). 

even group scaling can't overwhelm the OPness of those towers. it has nothing to do with how the game intended to be played. otherwise, the nimbus aoe wouldn't be removed from the game.

do you not understand C7 gear is meant for tackling C8 content?

of course you're going to breeze through C7 wearing C7 gear and even carry people :P

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@ram1024 quote:
@enigma007 quote:

do you not understand C7 gear is meant for tackling C8 content?

of course you're going to breeze through C7 wearing C7 gear and even carry people :P

^ This right here is actually very, very true. It wasn't so bad in the early Chaos tiers, but with the current powercreep the max upgrade stats are starting to bleed well over the max base stats of the next tier.

Here are the current differences:

  • C6 Max Upgrade is 7% HIGHER than C7 Max Base.
  • C5 Max Upgrade is 1% LOWER than C6 Max Base.
  • C4 Max Upgrade is about 5% LOWER than C5 Max Base.
  • C3 Max Upgrade is about 5% LOWER than C4 Max Base.
  • C2 Max Upgrade is 4% LOWER than C3 Max Base.
  • C1 Max Upgrade is 8% LOWER than C2 Max Base.
  • Hard Max Upgrade is 9% LOWER than C1 Max Base.

The best stats that you can get in C6 are enough to instantly cap you in C7. Max C5 stats will cap you for C6 after you replace a couple pieces of gear; you don't even need to replace every single piece of gear.

For those that don't get it, the Max Upgrade stats are already stats from the next tier. If you 60/60 a piece of gear with the Max Base stats, then you have already outgeared the content you got that gear in. A Max Upgrade C4 weapon is actually a non-capped C5 weapon.

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