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The C1 to C2 transition for new/returning players is very bad.


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Me and a friend recently came back to the game after a while (he played a bit inbetween), and the recent rebalancing of when you get shards seems to have seriously screwed the early game experience when attempting to make the C1-C2 transition.

We have tried many different combinations of towers (including the ones deemed as the best options) by the community with good placement, yet it's just not possible to break into C2. I don't know if it's because we have the default 4 classes, but we have C1 capped gear and the shards we have access to.

I see that a lot of shards were changed and put past C1, including Channel, Defense Range, Defense Crit Chance and others that other people have long since used in this transition. This seems to have created a serious progression issue with so many options removed from the pool, especially considering the new enemies introduced in C2.


To reiterate, the shards we have access to are maxed and the gear of the builder is C1 itempower capped. We have efficient builds and good pet loadouts.

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Try not to get discouraged.  Cyborks are the hardest of the new monsters, in my opinion.

If you haven't tried it, use backward PDTs in every lane.  Then add flamethrowers, cannonballs or ramsters with the walls.  I actually progressed through C2 with earthshatters, but I don't think they are the best option.  Don't forget you can always grind ascension levels for some extra power.  Construction makes repairs much, much easier.

For what it is worth, I cannot believe they moved channel out of the standard shard loot table.  It is absolutely mandatory for the default 4 heroes.  If you get fed up and want some help, send me a pm.

edit: you can also try skipping C2 and try C3.

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you're not wrong

you basically are forced into using PDTs.  flamethrowers without range suck, flame auras are disabled by EMP, balista and cannons are a joke

if you're not using PDTs you're going to have a really bad time (with the default 4 heroes) in chaos 2

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The new shard distribution among the shard pack tiers really makes no sense to me (or to anyone, really).  You really have like, no good shard options practically from Standard and Chaos 1 shard packs now.

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Actually what ascension lvl you are? And what is your gear?

Add me on steam - i will check what you are doing wrong or missing.

I recently help 2 guys to get pass C1 and it was really not so hard - everything is about correct defense placement - there are tons of combinations. I hope you have at least one relic epic or legendary and fully upgraded otherwise no wonder you cannot proceed.

Btw shards you need are and you definitely not need all to progress:

Defensive critical strike - campaign

Fortification - campaign

Construction - campaign

Speed boost - campaign

Destruction - chaos 1

Empowered flame - chaos 1

Stun fire - chaos 1

Bulwark - chaos 1

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@Wurps quote:


We have tried many different combinations of towers (including the ones deemed as the best options) by the community with good placement,

you are not

flamethrowers are good and allows to progress any map, same with PDT

if you cant even do wave 3 you are doing some wrong placement

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Back shooting PDTs is what I used going through C2.

I put ascension points into def speed and PDT damage equally as I ascended and in crit chance until it was maxed. After 60 ascension I did crit damage and range gambit.

I spent more time than most maxing out gear on each tier before progressing.

In truth back in the early C tiers C1 and C2 the heroes tend to do the heavy lifting. I used Gunwitch at that time with Broomnado, Book Drop and Scatter Sweep, a lot. You can use the original 4 the same way for crowd control.

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Recently TE made Ch1 easier somgoing from Camp hard/Incursion hard to Ch1 would be an easier transition. Also, Trendy has said a few times that we should expect to lose a bunch when going from 1 Chaos to the next. By losing, we still get gear/relics. Then use the new chaos loot (in your case, Ch2) to start winning matches. 

So, maybe you are doing everything right but still losing because that is how TE designed it. The point is to be in each chaos level for a little while (maybe 10-20 hrs?) before we can go into the next chaos should we desire. 


Sad that the shard options are not as good as they once were in camp and ch1. :-(

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short -> minimum 60 Ascension and PDT (DP/DC/DS) one per lane -> done :-)

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And dont forget to upgrade your gear.
Capped C1 gear is not enough, it needs to be upgraded.
You might also want to check the blacksmith, he sells gear with mid c3 values at max.

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I first joined when ilvl gear was a thing and started fresh with Trials because why not it's a test right?


This new system is nothing but a Korean mmo grinder scam. Keep gold values as low as possible and make upgrading gear very expensive and required to advance. This way people spend their free medals on upgrades and not chars or cash shop items to end up buying more gems. 


It is just not possible to play this game fresh. You can not upgrade 32 pieces of gear at 150k-500k when your only getting 10-15k a win. That's only for one char for 4 chars that's 128 pieces of gear.


I shouldn't have to remove hero's from my deck to get stronger gear as fast as possible. Needing to be completely maxed to go from one tier to the other is horrible and nothing but time consuming. We have already seen this does not cut down on leeching and makes the multiplayer scaling even harder.  Upgrading is supposed to make it easier to grind the current tier not taking you from one tier to the next that's what new gear is for. You find new gear in small amounts in the next tier until you have a full set then you start winning.  This can't happen if your forced to upgrade every single tier to get new gear. 


No one upgrades their gear to max in RPG's every tier because it's just a waste. Upgrading gear is only useful at endgame where it's supposed to be stupid expensive because that's all you have left. But right now upgrading gear costs the same from Campaign to C7. 


In all honesty every major update should be a data wipe and everyone starts fresh just to see the real effect of the changes being made. 

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@War_MachineXL quote:

I first joined when ilvl gear was a thing and started fresh with Trials because why not it's a test right?


This new system is nothing but a Korean mmo grinder scam. Keep gold values as low as possible and make upgrading gear very expensive and required to advance. This way people spend their free medals on upgrades and not chars or cash shop items to end up buying more gems. 


It is just not possible to play this game fresh. You can not upgrade 32 pieces of gear at 150k-500k when your only getting 10-15k a win. That's only for one char for 4 chars that's 128 pieces of gear.


I shouldn't have to remove hero's from my deck to get stronger gear as fast as possible. Needing to be completely maxed to go from one tier to the other is horrible and nothing but time consuming. We have already seen this does not cut down on leeching and makes the multiplayer scaling even harder.  Upgrading is supposed to make it easier to grind the current tier not taking you from one tier to the next that's what new gear is for. You find new gear in small amounts in the next tier until you have a full set then you start winning.  This can't happen if your forced to upgrade every single tier to get new gear. 


No one upgrades their gear to max in RPG's every tier because it's just a waste. Upgrading gear is only useful at endgame where it's supposed to be stupid expensive because that's all you have left. But right now upgrading gear costs the same from Campaign to C7. 


In all honesty every major update should be a data wipe and everyone starts fresh just to see the real effect of the changes being made. 

The gear changes were well intentioned as people were just skipping to NM4 directly before, and you would have people in end game tier who barely played. It does however need improvement, and Trendy has mentioned that they are debating options.

I agree - using one hero is lame, and at the very least they need to change the gear you are getting to the best character in deck.  They definitely need to explain how it works better, and indicate what type of gear you can expect currently  and encourage playing in that level.

And yeah - while CT7 players can get 360k gold fairly quick (70k+ per map), it is crazy that campaign gear also wants the same amount of gold to upgrade. They need to scale the cost down based on what tier the gear is, so CT7 stays about the same but CT1 is a fraction of that cost.

They need to do something with the shards too  - way too many of the that helped most people move up from CT1 are now in higher levels, and a 3% to 4% chance for a particular one is still pretty bad. If they allowed you to pick one of the 20+ maps instead of forcing us to play a random Trial, they could let us pick a specific one that gets a guaranteed drop or a one from a very small pool (1-5 shards, which would at worst be a 40% chance to get a specific one with the streak bonus). With 2 shards or more in the pool, you could give access to more shards for newer players, and have the popular shards be available in higher trials so end game players aren't AFK-ing CT3/CT4 for the most useful ones. Plus I am real sick of the 4 maps again for max CT already :)

But a wipe won't work now that people have been paying for shards and all, and they have said no more. So that really can't happen without a lot of blowback.

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C1 to C2 was easy for me but I had 2 Deadly Strikes shards I got from C1 before they moved them. You could try your luck buying C3 shard packs from the Gran'ma vendor because those range shards really help.

Flame auras Throwers never worked well for me as the placement is very tricky, so I switched to Ramsters and it was a breeze after that. I recommend saving your medals for the Abyss Lord. Ramsters will help you thorugh C3 as well.

EDIT: Oops, just noticed my mistake above. I meant Flamethrowers (Apprentice tower) are tricky to place. I use Flame Auras all the time.

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C1 to C2 indeed blows. I just wish they explained or fixed how the drop system works. I spent 4m on nothing when I came back.

At the sametime, I'm kinda glad though, because I managed to get my last character unlock soon after, so now I can just spend medals on random items to manipulate the drops when I want to push a Chaos rank. -_^

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@War_MachineXL quote:

I first joined when ilvl gear was a thing and started fresh with Trials because why not it's a test right?


This new system is nothing but a Korean mmo grinder scam. Keep gold values as low as possible and make upgrading gear very expensive and required to advance. This way people spend their free medals on upgrades and not chars or cash shop items to end up buying more gems. 


It is just not possible to play this game fresh. You can not upgrade 32 pieces of gear at 150k-500k when your only getting 10-15k a win. That's only for one char for 4 chars that's 128 pieces of gear.


I shouldn't have to remove hero's from my deck to get stronger gear as fast as possible. Needing to be completely maxed to go from one tier to the other is horrible and nothing but time consuming. We have already seen this does not cut down on leeching and makes the multiplayer scaling even harder.  Upgrading is supposed to make it easier to grind the current tier not taking you from one tier to the next that's what new gear is for. You find new gear in small amounts in the next tier until you have a full set then you start winning.  This can't happen if your forced to upgrade every single tier to get new gear. 


No one upgrades their gear to max in RPG's every tier because it's just a waste. Upgrading gear is only useful at endgame where it's supposed to be stupid expensive because that's all you have left. But right now upgrading gear costs the same from Campaign to C7. 


In all honesty every major update should be a data wipe and everyone starts fresh just to see the real effect of the changes being made. 

While I agree with parts of this post I disagree with some. Like the 32 pieces of gear thing. There is no point in upgrading every pieces you have on every champion if you plan to progress. Max out one or two heroes and don't equip relics into slots you're not using. I'm running two active heroes atm, Squire and Monk. The Squire doubles as waller and physical DPS, the monk is Skyguard or Flame Aura and Polesmash for Siegerollers. Both of them are only wearing one relic (sometimes 2 on the monk). This leaves me with 11 items to keep up to date, and I haven't bothered maxing anything other than the best relics and weapons since c2 (I'm about to start breaking into c6 now).  Even if you don't upgrade your gear you will get upgrades until you reach the max of the current tier.


Now to answer other parts of the topic. While it sucks that they moved some shards I never did get lucky and get any range and rate shard until shardpacks was a thing. Luckily if you do your dailies and the weekly you get enough to buy a few shardpacks a week while still saving up for new heroes. And you keep enough to upgrade the great shards and few (read almost nonexistant) great pieces you find that you feel are needed to progress. Luckily you can save up to three dailies and do them in campaign if you just wanna clear them. It's a bit boring but only takes a few minutes


As mentioned in the topic you're not meant to just waltz into the next tier and start winning even with maxed out gear from the previous tier. Of course it's possible and I heard some people almost skipped c6 and went to c7 still using some c5 pieces. But that's probably more due to ascension, that plays a large part of the power as well. If you're low on ascension that is a problem. A massive amount of power is in that system. But the progression is meant to be like this: Struggle in C1 -> succeed in C1 -> Breeze through C1 -> Fail but get an upgrade in C2 -> Struggle in C2 -> And so on.


All this being said, I'm not saying the system of progression (and other parts) doesn't have issues. Serious issues. I completely agree that it's stupid to have to unequip heroes to get the best gear, it feels counter-intuitive. The system is poorly explained (as in, not explained at all, it's a travesty and shows either lazy or stupid game design, no serious developer would leave an important system like loot unexplained). The multiplayer scaling is worked on I've heard but the fact that they let it through the way it is also shows that they probably don't even play their own game. It takes about 1 try in a multiplayer game to realise it's idiotic. A game designed for multiplayer shouldn't make multiplayer a bad idea. The shards seem to jump around the chaos tiers without any reason as if they throw darts on a spinning board to decide what tier to place the shards in. Gamebreaking and seriously annoying bugs are let through "testing" by the dozens. I mean, seriously, how many times do Siegerollers have to get stuck before they decide to check the spawns? Game crashing when you use a skill (I think it was maxing out heat on EV2 or some such), shards not working unless you unequip and equip them again (rate), a few patches where Weapon Manufacturer can't crit unless you switch to another hero and back again?

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@ram1024 quote:

you're not wrong

you basically are forced into using PDTs.  flamethrowers without range suck, flame auras are disabled by EMP, balista and cannons are a joke

if you're not using PDTs you're going to have a really bad time (with the default 4 heroes) in chaos 2

Cannons are good once you get Heavy Cannonball and Stun Fire going. Ballista are only good for flat ground.

As for C2, it is all about keeping those Cyber Orcs at bay. The Flamethrower with enough range  and Ramster are adequate attack towers that can kill the Cyber Orcs and any Shield Goblins that assist them. Slowing them down with Frostbites can also help if you use ranged attackers. 

When I started playing, I was on C2-3. C2 was relatively straight forward. C3 had it's annoyances until I figured out how effective the Ramster was.

@Professor_Valconian quote:


@Deathlok quote:

If you haven't tried it, use backward PDTs in every lane. 

Does this work in C5? I'm in C4 and will be making the jump soon.

PDTs will wreck C5 and you can put them behind the walls with slack. If you get latched onto by a Dark Assassin, make sure you got a means of stunning it: Cannonballs with Heavy Cannonball/Stun Fire, Snaking Sands, etc.


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Didn't check back in a while, my bad.. too much to reply to

@mmm quote:


@Wurps quote:


We have tried many different combinations of towers (including the ones deemed as the best options) by the community with good placement,

you are not

flamethrowers are good and allows to progress any map, same with PDT

if you cant even do wave 3 you are doing some wrong placement

We can do wave 3, but our gear is capped at this point for this level and what we really need is more shards, which we can't get because we can't actually complete it. We use squire walls, flamethrowers and PDTs with maxed shard loadouts of what we have available.

Friend uses AD Huntress with gato fireworks and I use ability power pole smash monk with encouragement for siege rollers.






@Ubara-tutu quote:

C1 to C2 was easy for me but I had 2 Deadly Strikes shards I got from C1 before they moved them. You could try your luck buying C3 shard packs from the Gran'ma vendor because those range shards really help.

Flame auras never worked well for me as the placement is very tricky, so I switched to Ramsters and it was a breeze after that. I recommend saving your medals for the Abyss Lord. Ramsters will help you thorugh C3 as well.

Yeah, the solution does seem to be get a non-starter hero. Intentional design 'flaw' or not I wonder?

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I had an error in my post you quoted. I meant Flamethrowers not Flame Auras Oops.

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@Wurps quote:

Didn't check back in a while, my bad.. too much to reply to


@Ubara-tutu quote:

C1 to C2 was easy for me but I had 2 Deadly Strikes shards I got from C1 before they moved them. You could try your luck buying C3 shard packs from the Gran'ma vendor because those range shards really help.

Flame auras never worked well for me as the placement is very tricky, so I switched to Ramsters and it was a breeze after that. I recommend saving your medals for the Abyss Lord. Ramsters will help you thorugh C3 as well.

Yeah, the solution does seem to be get a non-starter hero. Intentional design 'flaw' or not I wonder?

There is no need to get any other hero than the starter hero.


Squire walls are probably the best given effectiveness per DU. They scale well, have decent aggro and coverage and are cheap. The cannon ball tower is very powerful as well and if you buy c5 shardpacks and get heavy cannonball the only thing you have to worry about is geodes.


Huntress PDT is probably the most powerful tower in the game atm, followed by...


Monk has Flame Aura, one of the best things in the game atm. They do great damage, are cheap, can stack and can hit flyers all wrapped up in a nice package that can't be hit by enemies (except cyborks). They also have the only dedicated AA in SkyGuard Tower, which works wonders now that most bugs are sorted. The only alternative Anti-Air is PDT IMO (btw, also starter hero) unless the flyers are close enough to the ground to use Flame Auras (monk, starter hero)


The Apprentice has great CC in Frost tower and the Flame Thrower can cover pretty much any AoE need you have that Flame Aura can't. Flame Throwers and Auras can easily take care of all your damage needs up to the end. With some others thrown in here and there.


Squire is also probably the easiest to gear to survive Assassins when you start out C5 and has a few viable builds. Both hero damage and ability power. Not the best though


Monk on the other hand also has a few viable builds, including the (IMO) best siegecrusher build in the game with polesmash.  Even in C4 gear it only took a few seconds to down C5 siegerollers with polesmash. He's fast, has massive amounts of damage in both abilities and hero damage builds and has a great heal/buff.


Can't say a whole lot about the Huntress of Apprentice DPS as I don't use them but watching streams the huntress seems to be great especially with the shard that fires charged secondaries when spamming primary. Although that is of course also the same for EV2.


So no, there's really no NEED for anything but the original four. They can cover, and do it well, any need you can have. Walls, AoE, Single target, CC, AA buffs and more. Both in passive (don't know the actual word to use, but I mean auras, traps and such) and active (here I'm talking towers that actually fire stuff such as flamethrowers and cannon towers).


All this being said, I'm not saying getting other heroes is a bad idea. Both for the fun in getting some variety and to flesh out your builds. The ramsters are in some situations similar but better flame throwers as an example. I use world trees on some maps in my Assassin kill boxes to both heal and buff myself. On those maps I sometimes also throw in a slimepit for massive damage. The EV2 protons are great, her (?) dps can be amazing I've heard and Weapon Manufacture are great for lazy builds. The mystic sandtraps (I don't have her so I don't know) I'm told are very powerful and the lavamancer fissure is nice for spawncamping as they're similar to flame auras but easier to stack (although they can't hit flyers).


In the end all I'm trying to say is that while it might be fun and a good idea to have more heroes there's really no need for any other than the original four. It just adds strategical options and more variety to the gameplay.

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We're working on some loot improvements, and some of those improvements should help players make the jump from one Chaos tier to the next. We'll have more details soon!

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Thanks to great guy last night who happily carried us in some chaos runs I have the gear I need to get up to wave 4 in c3 where I can hopefully round out any missing uprgades I need to get c3 done.  As I Am understanding the loot system more and more I am having a better time of it.  I look forward to changes that will help out new and misinformed players get more from there gaming experiance

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To go from c1 to c2 i did around 10 runs with 1 hero in deck and only weapon and armour equipped. I would only equip green / blue, as purple and gold gave higher stats, but they still needed to be removed quickly to progress (they just sat there for games until i realised they were holding me back). It was just simpler to use greens and blues. After each boss, i would equip any piece that was higher than the current. Drops are slow, so you really do need to do it at the end of every wave. 
After reaching c2 max i went into c3 and got green armor 10-20 stats higher, starting from the bottom again.
Highly recommend befriending someone for the c2 grind, or spending your money on good relics.

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@Big Bad Baz quote:

 or spending your money on good relics.

This helped me , spent some gold on a totem that helped get my walls to a point where I could get to them and repair them before they got destroyed.  By getting a good medallion as well helped the towers whittle the Cyborks down.  Little by little got to the point where I could finish the maps.  Must admit it was a serious jump from c1

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