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Update 4 - QoL Suggestions

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@XGrimorgX quote:

Stuck mobs can be annoying, especially when on summoner high survival with everything upgraded already. If they don't move/attack for like half a minute it would be nice to have them removed. Might be less demanding having a counter on the last say 100? mobs of a wave checking for this.

Yes, a stuck elemental (particularly) mob on MB or other map really can be a huge delay in the map


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Pretty sure the despawning thing is map specific as a kismet action is used to sell everything when a game is won.

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Another very much needed fix -- re-work the Goblin-copter rockets trajectory and pathing so that they don't go under the reflect beams on some maps and hit the towers.  Prime candidates for maps that suffer with this issue are Tinkerer's Lab, CD(rarely), Embermount(most frequently), Buc Bay and Akatiti. There might be other maps which suffer from this, but I can't recall them right now.

Not sure if it is a map related issue or just the rockets are funky, but still having them go below the reflects completely ruins the point of reflect beams!

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An old problem but can we address mana leakage on Moonbase?

I seem to forever be losing mana. Normally small amounts but 500 mana just vanished on me in the initial build phase!

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@mkjo quote:

An old problem but can we address mana leakage on Moonbase?

I seem to forever be losing mana. Normally small amounts but 500 mana just vanished on me in the initial build phase!

Mana in general can disappear when it goes under the floor.  On certain maps it can go into the floor when you open chests, and on other maps it can disappear into the floor or behind the forge if you drop mana there.  Both of these happen frequently on Moonbase, but they happen on other maps as well.

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Here is a tiny little update to add to the mix:  Currently, initiates hold sparuses (sparii ?) really weird.  Plane mentioned there might be a thread floating around about this already, but since this thread asks to add it here in one big conglomerate, I will put it here.  I notice that it is worse with tiny sparuses.  Big ones sort of get closer to being held at the middle, but it is still decently far off.  On tiny sparuses, they hold them basically like a sword instead of in the middle at the grip.  If this is popular and also rather easy to fix, I can make a list of weapons that seem to have this problem.  ALthough, I think most are generally placed pretty nicely in the characters hands.  Off the top of my head, initiate/monks with sparuses are the only one that stands out.  See below for an example.  This image shows the smallest sparus I could find, and as stated, bigger sparuses are not quite as bad.


Similarly, the elemental effects other than fire are not very distinguished. Fire is super prominent on a sparus, while poison is barely noticeable and lightning is non existent. I would suggest moving to a more consistent effect across all three types. Tone fire WAY down, keep poison the same, maybe increase it just barely. And make lightning similar to the poison effect. Not really a big deal, but its my two cents on the matter.  


stOB3HN.png



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Tower stacking

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i suggested fixing this a while ago however i don't know if people would want it fixed now as it is more in use? i still think it can be fairly broken stacking them but i dunno its just a suggestion.

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Thing is, Tower Stacking, just like any other glitch / exploit if fixed, requires other glitches and exploits to be patched as as well such as -- Minion Stacking -- Genie Proc -- Sky City Grill, etc. can't single out and selectively ask for 1 thing to be fixed and the others not.

Also, just like other glitches, Tower Stacking has been relatively common knowledge(at least to more experienced players), and has been around since the console days anyways. Possibly, only made a bit more "publicly known" after Plane's video(although there were previous videos about it as well) on it.

I doubt people will agree about getting the Genie Proc or Minion Stacking fixed, becasue if we are fixing one thing others should be fixed as well! :D

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@Plane quote:


@mkjo quote:

An old problem but can we address mana leakage on Moonbase?

I seem to forever be losing mana. Normally small amounts but 500 mana just vanished on me in the initial build phase!

Mana in general can disappear when it goes under the floor.  On certain maps it can go into the floor when you open chests, and on other maps it can disappear into the floor or behind the forge if you drop mana there.  Both of these happen frequently on Moonbase, but they happen on other maps as well.

Yes - I remember Akatti chest mana was pretty leaky in one or two spots but Moonbase is particularly bad in a couple of spots near the forge.


A couple of times I have even seen the mana (often a 50) under the glass floor where, I am sure, it is laughing at me!

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@Black Mamba quote:

Thing is, Tower Stacking, just like any other glitch / exploit if fixed, requires other glitches and exploits to be patched as as well such as -- Minion Stacking -- Genie Proc -- Sky City Grill, etc. can't single out and selectively ask for 1 thing to be fixed and the others not.

We can certainly single out and selectively ask for things to be fixed. Of course we may not reach a community consensus but we can certainly ask. Fixing A does not necessarily mean B has to be fixed also.

These may bother some people equally and other people to differing degrees.

Tower stacking can effect every map of every game whereas, as an example, the Sky City Grill or Phoenix Boss behaviours only effect the boss wave of one map. Quite a significant difference IMO. [By the way - I am not asking for these to be changed - only tower stacking to be up for discussion]

If we do not try to stem at least the more impacting of these glitches / exploits we will end up with a game of commonly known game breaking exploits.


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Would it be possible to add a button that scrolls the level select menu? There is an infrequent bug when adding or removing additional players that makes it so I can't click the arrow buttons on the left side of the level select menu; the ones that allow you to change what page you're viewing. As I have no idea how to fix the bug, a simple fix would be buttons that scrolled the page up and down. Currently the arrow keys, page up+down, and + / - don't do anything on that menu; any of those could work.


I also firmly support the 'CTRL+G' option to make everyone hit the crystals. Having to manipulate each controller every wave to go hit the crystal gets annoying; not to mention being able to speed up runs with afk people along for the ride.


That and sup or better amor pieces dropping and then being stuck out in the airlocks on moonbase are really the only complaints I can come up with the game at the moment (barring huge changes to the ancient game engine, obviously).

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@talantmajr quote:

Would it be possible to add a button that scrolls the level select menu? There is an infrequent bug when adding or removing additional players that makes it so I can't click the arrow buttons on the left side of the level select menu; the ones that allow you to change what page you're viewing. As I have no idea how to fix the bug, a simple fix would be buttons that scrolled the page up and down. Currently the arrow keys, page up+down, and + / - don't do anything on that menu; any of those could work.

For me the Arrow Keys(or it was WASD I think either) can move the map selection from the menu. The arrow button on the menu's scroll bar doesn't work and gets bugged out. But good for pointing out that bug, I always forget about it since its infrequent. Happens when you add and then later remove AFK characters from either the emulator or controller(I use these).

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Not sure if mentioned or not yet, But I would like parrots to have their base damage buffed a bit. Main reason is to increase the chance of getting ultimate's now that dark put out statistics that they're like over 4 times as rare to get compared to ult monkeys and only ult's benefit from a higher damage per level. I remember hearing when i went to farm them I was told they were supposedly as rare as monkeys to roll ult but that is not the case.  I'm not sure how much base damage would be needed to make them at least similar to ult monkey rates in terms of # of runs. Since they're like the counterpart of monkeys in terms of their attacking range.

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@Lootlovinggamer quote:

Not sure if mentioned or not yet, But I would like parrots to have their base damage buffed a bit. Main reason is to increase the chance of getting ultimate's now that dark put out statistics that they're like over 4 times as rare to get compared to ult monkeys and only ult's benefit from a higher damage per level. I remember hearing when i went to farm them I was told they were supposedly as rare as monkeys to roll ult but that is not the case.  I'm not sure how much base damage would be needed to make them at least similar to ult monkey rates in terms of # of runs. Since they're like the counterpart of monkeys in terms of their attacking range.

They are a lot like monkeys, but they do have lower damage and shoot 5% faster to balance it out.  I support your idea :) but I would like the damage to remain somewhat lower than monkey damage so their balance doesn't change much.

I'm not sure how much damage they need to have similar odds to monkeys, but since they don't get quite as many negatives as monkeys do, we can probably manage that while keeping the damage somewhat lower than monkey damage.  If the community supports this idea I can work out how big the change would be. Most likely, it wouldn't make a major difference to the average parrot.

(I'd like to verify the statistics myself first rather than rely on the statistics from the other thread)

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Would it be possible to change the DST target priority somewhere in a config file? (Or any other way to change their priority list)

I have been reading a bit on the forums again and people seem to have very different opinions when it comes to target priority of the dst. And I can totally see why. This tower will be great to kill certain things off before they can do significant damage. (With the new increased projectile speed)


For example let them kill sharkens before they can charge at your defenses and you can use normal blockades instead of gas trap to block a path.

Or let them kill djinns if you have trouble with them despawning things on your build.

Maybe your build has already great aoe dmg but the ogers come with too high health once they come to your aoe they don't get down fast enough. The DST could priorotise them so they reach your aoe with lower health.

It could even be possible to use gastraps to create 'enemywalls' and then let the DST kill ogers stuck behind these walls.


What I want to say is the DST can let you adapt you build in a very precise way if it can take away a distinct threat that would make your build not work that great. But it all comes down to what you want them to focus on. The DST is a high DU tower that does not deal alot of dmg at the moment. It is way worse than a lot of other towers and the single one reason they are good is a priority list such that you know exactly what they will do and complement your build. Giving the players the ability to change that priority list will make them pretty usefull and generate a lot new forms of building (at least I hope so and I would defenitly play around with that feature), while not breaking any existing builds.

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1. The biggest suggestion I have is mana dropping. Right now if you drop mana on any character other than a summoner you shoot it out all over. Very annoying and can even result in your mana being dropped off the map. I vote that we make the mana dropping of all characters just like the summoner. One nice, neat pile right at your feet. 


2. Another suggestion is to fix item dropping. I think there was a "fix" for this in a previous update but I haven't really noticed a thing. When you drop items in the tavern they should drop in one spot but they don't, it's random.


3. Some other suggestions I have are some CD changes. Right now if some one is in the air when you change levels they will fall through the map. Maybe not all the time, but at least in some occasions. 


4. Also, it would be nice for people to be able to hit G when they are dead. Right now if someone dies and they want to stick around for the reward you need to wait a while for their portion of the timer to stop. 



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I agree with Black Mamba's edit #3 about adding a button for the host to start the wave immediately using ctrl + g due to people going afk or other things occurring.

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Some more suggestions / requests:

  1. Drop Coal(for NM) and Small Coal (for other difficulties) and Santa Accs to the Etherian Holiday Extravaganza map completion drop pool, similar to Silent Night / Winter Wonderland. Its a fairly hard(but fun) map on a given difficulty but only drops 1 class specific weapon currently, which also probably doesn't roll over Myth(if playing in NMHC). So have the map drop the Santa Weapons similar to Silent Night / Winter Wonderland.

  2. Summoner DPS could use a bit of love. Currently the pet damage scaling on Summoner is crap compared to Huntress / Monk or even other classes. I'd suggest buffing the Pet Damage on Summoner to around 15% less than whatever is the scaling for Monk / Huntress to make using Summoner DPS somewhat viable. I've asked around a lot of people in-game, and while my survey is not an accurate indication of the overall community opinion, but, a lot of people I asked do like the idea of having a DPS Summoner as a possible Boss killer or at least support character for Boss fights.
    (Will require balance testing during Update 4 Beta but please consider it)

  3. Allow Summoners to Equip Animus Pets -- http://i.imgur.com/BhdOzJz.png -- Summoners can't equip any Animus Pet currently, while Jesters can equip any of those. And EV can equip the Huntress/Apprentice animus as it should, and Barb can equip Squire animus as it should, again. So the summoner gets left out! Fix please!

  4. Had mentioned this in private to Acen(a while back) and to Plane recently -- the hero-damage scaling on Jester is somewhat higher than Apprentice, which makes a pure DPS Apprentice do less damage than a Jester at same stats while using the same weapon. Also due to this the difference between SL Apprentice Skin and Jester is about 4-6% or something, i.e. SL App does a mere 4-6% more damage than the Jester. Don't quote me on the % number, but the difference between Jester and SL App damage at a given hero-damage point using the same weapon is fairly negligible.
    Since people won't like the idea of nerfing hero-damage scaling on Jester, the best bet is to then make Apprentice hero-damage scaling to that of the Jester so both Apprentice in vanilla skin does the same damage at any given hero-damage stat point as that of the Jester, and SL Skin App will do whatever is its appropriate damage(bonus) than the Jester as it should.
    TL;DR -- At, say 3k Hero-DMG points, the Jester will do more damage than Apprentice on a given weapon. This needs to be fixed for Apprentices using normal skins that don't give any additional damage bonus.

  5. Reduce Silent Night Boss Fight waiting time to about 30 seconds from current 60 seconds. Unlike EHE, there is no Santa to defend on this map so it doesn't make sense to wait that long.

  6. Possible re-work on the projectile animations for Rift and Quietus to make them less screen-obstructing and less distracting.

Updated main post again, as usual.

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@talantmajr quote:@SupahMo quote:

1. The biggest suggestion I have is mana dropping. Right now if you drop mana on any character other than a summoner you shoot it out all over. Very annoying and can even result in your mana being dropped off the map. I vote that we make the mana dropping of all characters just like the summoner. One nice, neat pile right at your feet. 

This, though. Why can't I like this post twice. I don't know how difficult / long of a change this would be, but it would be incredible.

After reading your posts, I brought this up in DDRnG chat, and it seemed like a lot of the community is in favor of it.  It would be fairly easy to implement, I believe, and it would have the added bonus of working around the bug where mana can get lost behind the forge on certain maps (TL, WW) or underneath (Moon, Ember).

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@talantmajr quote:
@Black Mamba quote:

Some more suggestions / requests:

  1. Drop Coal(for NM) and Small Coal (for other difficulties) and Santa Accs to the Etherian Holiday Extravaganza map completion drop pool, similar to Silent Night / Winter Wonderland. Its a fairly hard(but fun) map on a given difficulty but only drops 1 class specific weapon currently, which also probably doesn't roll over Myth(if playing in NMHC). So have the map drop the Santa Weapons similar to Silent Night / Winter Wonderland.

On the fence about. The problem with this is that it completely changes the balance of acquiring what is basically the end game currency. Now I haven't ran that map in a while (read: since before my long break), but I seem to recall it was quite a bit easier than either WW or SN (due to the fact that i had easily beat it before I'd left, whereas WW I had not and SN still have not).

[...]

EHE NMHC is a very hard map, considered by most to be harder than SN.  Most players have never done it because the game gives the EHE achievement on lower skill levels, and yet EHE gives essentially no reward (beyond the costumes/achievement, which you can get on lower skill levels).  Most likely you cleared it on a lower skill level. 

I support an EHE buff so that the drops are on the same level as WW/SN on NM, including at least coal + accessory.

@talantmajr quote:Summoners were never meant to be dps toons. [...]  tl;dr- summoners were never intended as dps heroes, and in my firm opinion, should never be considered as dps heroes.

Summoners already make great DPS or hybrid characters.  Their damage is terrible, even with seahorse & cat, but their purpose as DPS chars isn't to deal high damage.  They can equip two pets, so they can boost towers with huntress and apprentice guardian.  They can be used to farm 100% armor on survivals, and they let you do it AFK (djinnlet + imp or fairy + imp).  They can run around with a fairy and a seahorse.  They can fly further than any other hero.  They can phase out any time they're about to take damage, and they can safely run around and flash heal during waves.  As a hybrid, they are the single best character to solo maps like Silent Night or EHE NMHC.  And don't forget you can summon minions to follow you around.

What I'm trying to say is that damage isn't everything.  DPS summoners are already a well-established character type with many uses, even with fairly low damage. 


@Black Mamba quote:
  1. ~
  2. ~
  3. Allow Summoners to Equip Animus Pets -- http://i.imgur.com/BhdOzJz.png -- Summoners can't equip any Animus Pet currently, while Jesters can equip any of those. And EV can equip the Huntress/Apprentice animus as it should, and Barb can equip Squire animus as it should, again. So the summoner gets left out! Fix please!
That might be tricky, because it's tied to the set of weapons that can be equipped.  Jesters can equip any weapon, so they can equip any animus.  Summoners can't equip any weapons, so they can't equip any animi :(


@talantmajr quote:
@Black Mamba quote:
  1. ~
  2. ~
  3. ~
  4. ~
  5. Reduce Silent Night Boss Fight waiting time to about 30 seconds from current 60 seconds. Unlike EHE, there is no Santa to defend on this map so it doesn't make sense to wait that long.

For? Though- unless it's a two second fix- I think the devs should be focusing on other things.

This kind of little QoL fix is exactly what the CDT should be doing, IMO :)  I haven't looked into it yet, but I bet it'll be a quick fix. 

What Mambo is saying is that on EHE, you get some extra time before the boss because your defenses all vanish, and because you have to keep Santa alive while you DPS the Mega Snowman (very challenging without high-end characters!), so you need the time to build a whole new set of defenses.  On SN, your defenses don't vanish and you don't have to rebuild, so everyone just sits around for 120 seconds doing nothing.  

(Ticks are actually two seconds each, so you've got a 60*2 seconds to wait before the boss, plus a few extra for the messages and such.)

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In response to mambo's 6 commandments:


100% agree with EHE dropping coal.  


Is summoner dps still lower with 2x chickens compared to Monk's 1x chicken? I only ever used a dps summoner for EHE and only ran it until I beat it once.  I can totally support summoner with 2x chickens doing 85% of monk's 1x chicken damage.  if you want each chicken to do 85% of monk's chicken damage, then I would disagree with that, as it would make a summoner the most powerful dps for boss fights and a fierce competitor for top choice buidler.


I've only run SN on insane and will most likely never camp NM ever, but the off chance I do, I see no reason to oppose changing this - I suspect it would be changing a coded value of 60 to 30 or whatever people decide. with no rebuild and little need to repair, why not cut down farming time by some change.


The rest doesn't really pertain to me and I don't see it pertaining to me in the future, so Ill let stakeholders hash that one out.



100% unrelated side note:  I just now realized the meaning of QoL - before 5 minutes ago, I thought this was the abbreviation of the map planned for update 4.  -.-

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