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Hom-Sha-Bom

Best Damaging Relic +Shard Combo for Your Ascension Level & Chaos Tier

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

So, there may be a problem here. I'm getting inconsistent results with how Destruction stacks with Power Transfer.


When I use Vampiric Empowerment, equipping Fortification does increase my tower's ATK DMG.

When I use Power Transfer, equipping Destruction sometimes increases my CRIT DMG, but sometimes it does not.


I can't tell how these are supposed to stack, if there's a bug that causes them to sometimes stack or sometimes not stack, or if I'm just losing my mind.



check if its like the defense rate bug, that seems to "deactivate" after a loading screen. unsocketing and resocketing the shard fixes it. But you have to do it every loading screen -_-

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

I can't tell how these are supposed to stack, if there's a bug that causes them to sometimes stack or sometimes not stack, or if I'm just losing my mind.

It might be related to https://dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/144790/weird-bug?scrollTo=1278841&page=1.

Are you using new relics or relics that you've had for a while? If you're using a mix, then that may explain the inconsistency. iamisom is saying that makes a difference due to this bug.

If it's not related to this bug, then I don't have a clue, and it might be some combination of new bugs.

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This does not apply to all towers, it all depends on what the attack rate cap is on a tower.  For example on Flame aura going from 0.39 using medallion to 0.31 using orb is not a huge enough difference to justify the loss in damage you doing. So in this case medallion is best over orb.
Unless all towers come close to capping out with max C7 relic?  Ive never tested if they do then would not medallion be best if the speed increase is 20% or less?

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@mindlessdefender quote:

This does not apply to all towers, it all depends on what the attack rate cap is on a tower.  For example on Flame aura going from 0.39 using medallion to 0.31 using orb is not a huge enough difference to justify the loss in damage you doing. So in this case medallion is best over orb.
Unless all towers come close to capping out with max C7 relic?  Ive never tested if they do then would not medallion be best if the speed increase is 20% or less?

It applies to all "primarily damage-dealing defenses". They all have a 400% speed cap. "Primarily utility defenses" have a 200% speed cap.

So when I'm talking about maximizing damage, I'm talking about damaging towers, not utility towers.


To reach the 400% cap you need to add 12,000 Defense Speed (from Relic stats, Ascension, and Defense Rate shard) on top of the base 4,000 Defense Speed that every tower has. 

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im way below 400 Ascension and yet orb is best for cannons in C7, while mark is best for some other Towers like flame auras and Medaillons have their favorite Towers as well like pdts or serpant coil. so all 3 have Towers where they shine. so i cant agree with what you are saying.


@Hom-Sha-Bom Quote

Chaos 7:

  1. Ascension 0 - 4, Medallion w/ Defense Rate & Destruction
  2. Ascension 5 - 487, Medallion w/ Defense Rate & Power Transfer
  3. Ascension 488 - ∞, Orb w/ Defense Critical Damage & Power Transfer (Defense Rate no longer used)


This will apply to all "primarily damage dealing" defenses because they all scale crit damage exactly 500% higher than attack damage, all have 10% base crit chance, all have 33% max crit chance, all have 400% speed cap, and all are affected by Ascension the same.


The only weirdness comes in with PDT with it's explosive poison and enhanced poison. Those are the only tower specific shards that are actually worth using.

heavy cannonball is worth using. the stunshard for cannons can only stun, heavy cannonball stuns and has a projectile that can crit as well. so even if the basedmg is low the crits are massive. and it can hit up to 10 enemies and can stun all of them.


empowered flame f.e. is viable as well. flamethrower with a purp C7 Mark power Transfer, critdmg and atk rate deals ~630k dps lvl1 with 382 Ascension. if you replace power Transfer with emp flame you end up with ~630k as well. parsed on the dummy for 5 mins both.


so no explosive and enhanced are not the only Tower specific shards worth using.

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@H3M1V3 quote:

so i cant agree with what you are saying.

I haven't said anything that you can disagree with. I haven't given my opinion on anything. I'm just graphing the equations behind the damage numbers that you see popping up and showing the results.





@H3M1V3 quote:

heavy cannonball is worth using. the stunshard for cannons can only stun, heavy cannonball stuns and has a projectile that can crit as well. so even if the basedmg is low the crits are massive. and it can hit up to 10 enemies and can stun all of them.

Heavy Cannonball is a 20% chance to do 950% DP as damage. At Tier 1, that is exactly how much its damage scales with DP. So it's +20% atk dmg at Tier 1 (and it goes down as you upgrade), and it has a much smaller crit multiplier. And since the majority of damage after the 19.5 patch comes from crit, this is not a significant damage increase.

I've stated several times that this is about DAMAGE. If you want CC, go for it.  CC is great, I'm not mad at it. But that's a totally different conversation. I'm talking about damage numbers here.


@H3M1V3 quote:

empowered flame f.e. is viable as well. flamethrower with a purp C7 Mark power Transfer, critdmg and atk rate deals ~630k dps lvl1 with 382 Ascension. if you replace power Transfer with emp flame you end up with ~630k as well. parsed on the dummy for 5 mins both.

  1. I never claimed the best relic build for C7 was Power Transfer, Defense Critical Damage, and Defense Rate on a Mark. I said those shards should be used on a Medallion. #RelicTypesMatter

    and, as I previously mentioned, there seems to be a bug with how Destruction and Power Transfer stack or don't stack. Depending on which way that goes it could swing in favor of medallion or mark at certain levels.

  2. If you say yourself that Empowered Flame is not an improvement over the relics that can be used by any tower, then why would I bother to recreate all of the graphs just to include 1 additional shard that provides no benefit?
  3. Empowered Flame is clearly bugged. It is either doing more damage than it is intended to do, or the description on it is wrong. I'm not going to include a shard that I know is bugged until I find out what the correct amount of damage it should be doing is.

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1. you said you figured out the best relics at any Ascension and any chaos Tier and pointed them out.

2. you said that this applies to all primarily dmg defenses.

3. you pointed the only 2 shards out that you think are worth using.

4. you said that medallion with def rate & power Transfer is the best dps relic all the time except for pdts until C7 and 488 asc.

5. you consider deadly strikes a required shard.



@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:
@H3M1V3 quote:

so i cant agree with what you are saying.

I haven't said anything that you can disagree with. I haven't given my opinion on anything. I'm just graphing the equations behind the damage numbers that you see popping up and showing the results.





@H3M1V3 quote:

heavy cannonball is worth using. the stunshard for cannons can only stun, heavy cannonball stuns and has a projectile that can crit as well. so even if the basedmg is low the crits are massive. and it can hit up to 10 enemies and can stun all of them.

Heavy Cannonball is a 20% chance to do 950% DP as damage. At Tier 1, that is exactly how much its damage scales with DP. So it's +20% atk dmg at Tier 1 (and it goes down as you upgrade), and it has a much smaller crit multiplier. And since the majority of damage after the 19.5 patch comes from crit, this is not a significant damage increase.

I've stated several times that this is about DAMAGE. If you want CC, go for it.  CC is great, I'm not mad at it. But that's a totally different conversation. I'm talking about damage numbers here.


@H3M1V3 quote:

empowered flame f.e. is viable as well. flamethrower with a purp C7 Mark power Transfer, critdmg and atk rate deals ~630k dps lvl1 with 382 Ascension. if you replace power Transfer with emp flame you end up with ~630k as well. parsed on the dummy for 5 mins both.

  1. I never claimed the best relic build for C7 was Power Transfer, Defense Critical Damage, and Defense Rate on a Mark. I said those shards should be used on a Medallion. #RelicTypesMatter

    and, as I previously mentioned, there seems to be a bug with how Destruction and Power Transfer stack or don't stack. Depending on which way that goes it could swing in favor of medallion or mark at certain levels.

  2. If you say yourself that Empowered Flame is not an improvement over the relics that can be used by any tower, then why would I bother to recreate all of the graphs just to include 1 additional shard that provides no benefit?
  3. Empowered Flame is clearly bugged. It is either doing more damage than it is intended to do, or the description on it is wrong. I'm not going to include a shard that I know is bugged until I find out what the correct amount of damage it should be doing is.

These are 5 Points that i can disagree with and you tell me that i cant disagree with anything you said. well even if you only go for dmg what you say is wrong and i never said that you mentioned mark is the best. that was an example from me.


heavy canonball crits for half of the critdmg of a normal shot but it hits up to 10 Targets instead of 1. every 5 shots on average you get 1 heavy cannonball, that hits up to 10 enemies.

you say its all about dps but the only times when dps matters is when you dont faceroll everything and enemies dont die asap after spawn. which means you will most likely have situations where you want CC to maximize your dps.

even without the stun its like adding a cannonball that hits 1-2 Targets on every shot. heavy cannonball deals the same dmg noncrit on lvl1 as the Tower itself and 50% when it crits. since you only upgrade cannons to lvl2-3 this wont Change that much.

so say we hit only 5 enemies with the canonball every 10 shots of the Canon we still have a dps increase of 50% for noncrits and 25% for crits and get a 2sec stun. a stun from heavy canonball buys us 2sec more time and if you go for 3 Canons/lane you have a constant stream of them.


my example for emp flame clearly showed that your Statement that it is not viable is completly wrong and emp flame does more dmg then it should do, but thats the current state of the game and you posted stuff for the current state of the game. you have to consider These factors when making a post like this.




if your Distribution is for someone progressing (i guess so otherwise you wouldnt bother displaying C1-C6) you have to take into account that CC is a relevant factor and that raw dps is not winning you the game, but a build that buys you some time in some form while maximizing dps. if you would talk with speedruns in mind so overgeared C7 Players then deadly strikes is a complete joke to use.


i mean you yourself commited to the line of saying deadly strikes is a relevant shard. its not giving you more dps, yet you say its all about dps in this thread. so instead of using 3 shards for pure dps you use a shard that deals no dps but complain about me using a "cc" shard.

what deadly does is increasing range and increasing the time your defenses can deal dmg not the dmg per sec itself. deadly gives you more time to deal dmg and so does heavy cannonball. so stop saying that your post is only for dmg.



@Hom-Sha-Bom Quote:

I've stated several times that this is about DAMAGE. If you want CC, go for it.  CC is great, I'm not mad at it. But that's a totally different conversation. I'm talking about damage numbers here.

then why do you include deadly strikes my friend if you insist that heavily on only talking about dmg numbers.

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btw i use power Transfer and critdmg on my cannons and heavy cannonball. deadly has no value if i dont Need the range at all. so destr adds 40k dps and heavy cannonball when it hits 1 target max every 5 shots is 30k dps. so if i hit with the heavy cannonball 1 time 1 enemy and 1 time 2 enemies so 3 enemies total within 10 shots i already have 45k dps on average. which is more then destr. and hitting 1.5 enemies on average with a heavy cannonball is not rlly hard. not even counting the stun.


a 3k range cannon vs a 4.2k range cannon makes no difference, since your maintargets for cannons are orcladies, bosses and assassins. and for them a stun is a rlly nice Thing to have.

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and another Thing to note is. mark is more dps then orb if you go for the single target dmg even though its not a big deal. 550k dps with heavy cannonball and orb vs 750k dps with mark. well you have to add 30k dps on top of the 550k for the average number of enemies hit by the cannonball. so you can end up with 850k dps if you hit 10 enemies. but thats a a rare Thing.


more importantly cannons are a heavily crit dependant build. so you rely on rng for the dmg. 1kk critdmg lvl1 vs 1.8kk critdmg. if an enemy has 2kk hp and i crit 2 times in a row the enemy is dead anyway. if an enemy has 1kk hp it dies anyway but i have a huge Overkill with 1.8kk critdmg. Overkill is worth nothing.


the difference is my Tower has a 0.15sec higher atk rate. 0.75 vs 0.9. the faster a Tower the less highrole an rng build like critbuilds or proccbuilds will be. if i have a Tower with 100kk critdmg but it attacks every 10sec wow gg highrole that dmg and then have useless Overkill. thats why a flamethrower is insane with crit since it attacks so fast that it pumps out crits more often.


30% critchance a Tower with 1 attack/sec and one with 0.1 attacks/sec. the first will have on average 3 crits within 10sec. the other one has a 30% Chance to highrole 1 crit within 10 sec. thats why you want to have critbuilds on fast Towers, to minimize the Overkill and maximize a consistent critrate.


since you have real aoe Towers in the front that will kill small stuff and bring the hp down from big dudes you dont Need These insane highrole critbuilds. it will just hurt your consistency and your dps. oh and the stun is still there and if you stun enemies within your auras you have a nice dps boost then if they would walk out.


if you want to talk about dps then you have to consider alot more Things then what is displayed.


just my 2 Cents


PS: if you want your post to be helpful it has to be for a real Situation and not a ficitional fight against dummies, so if you go for a max dps thread you have to take a real Situation into account.

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@H3M1V3 quote:

PS: if you want your post to be helpful it has to be for a real Situation and not a ficitional fight against dummies, so if you go for a max dps thread you have to take a real Situation into account.

Reminding us all that, in order to be helpful, we should be more realistic and not ficitional

We should all take notes on the real situations you presented us with up above, there were many.  

Like how emp flame works, .15 faster than this or that, analysis on overkill, the actual (not made-up) dps of different cannons vs the actual (not made up) hp of monsters, the 100 million crit damage tower with 10 sec atk speed, how much damage CC is worth, ...and many more

All very scientific, and very helpful, indeed


looking forward to the next thread where someone,

  • takes the HP of every different type of monster from every difficulty + the 3 tiers they have a chance of spawning in, 
  • makes a couple dozen graphs like these except replaces DPS with TTK(time to kill) for every defense (so that they could use defense-specific shards as well), 
  • gets data on every possible monster schedule to determine an expected TTK over 5 randomly generated waves 
  • posts it all, explaining what he did and that his goal was to give information on the relevant DPS of each single tower if used alone
  • and then good ol' math wiz H3M1V3 comes in to remind us all it's worthless because the foolish OP didn't take into account that different towers would be attacking at the same time huehuehue


sarcasm aside,

OP made perfectly adequate graphs representing exactly what he set out to represent.  He made absolutely clear what assumptions he made and exactly what's being graphed

You're arguing that his data doesn't adequately represent relevant DPS (or TTK) when taking into consideration all the different HPs of monsters and/or specific towers with unique properties/shards.  Well, he never made the claim that his data did any of those things


It's honestly a bit annoying/insulting for someone like you to come in and say it's not helpful because it didn't take into account x, y, or z (when x, y, and/or z make it way more complicated).  

Worse yet, was when you made up numbers to express the effect of x, y, and x instead of taking the time to give actual numbers.  I can almost guarantee if you took the time to be precise in your explanations you would respect the work others have put being precise in theirs.


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Thank you Hom for the posts - very informative and useful.

Sadly Trendy released the patch while I was away on vacation, and the wifi was terrible on the beach. So I am only just capping CT6 now, and am looking forward to capping out CT7 soon armed with this info.

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