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Zimmermann

[Feedback] Frostbite Tower

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So I have been an avid fan of Frostbite Towers since I can remember, however it feels that their slow and buffs are just not that effective anymore. This is made worse by the extreme damage of the new EMP Kobolds that can take my 600k Health towers down in about 2 hits, though this is most likely an intended hard counter.

Some bullet points on their main issues.

  • I feel no difference between using Frosties verses just spamming down more of the defense tower I am using.
  • They are not worth sinking 50 mana into for upgrades
  • Their slow is just irrelevant without the slow shard (not tried them with it)
  • Frosty Power fix was fine, but with all the other nerfs they excel in nothing now.
  • Crit damage from buffs seems far far superior to defense power, Defense power being almost irrelevant, unless the Defense buffed has Power Transfer. Meaning Frosties only buff through 2 mandatory shards rather one on the defense itself.

To cut a long story short, defenses seem very powerful on their own while synergies from this tower just are not worth it. 

I really would like to see this tower seeing some love even if it has to come at the cost of other towers being nerfed. Synergies are fun, but it seems spamming more of the same towers works just as well, and is faster to build :(

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@Zimmermann quote:
  • Their slow is just irrelevant without the slow shard (not tried them with it)

Slow shard has no significant effect in the current build.

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Hm, I'm pretty sure +50% DP on towers it can buff is still extremely strong and it's one of the better towers in the game because of that shard. 

It's true the tower is almost worthless to upgrade, should just be a larger area per-upgrade (doesn't it already do that? really hard to 'test' it)


But the tower is simply a game-changer for clumped up defenses that can be placed in a lane and on difficulties w/o cybork.  Like dryad bees/cloud, fissures, and to a lesser extent flame auras and flamethrowers - lesser because the positioning is tougher on them (flamethrower because they have HP, and flame auras because they have the "too close to aura" thing).  


So, I don't really see your "defenses seem very powerful on their own while synergies from this tower just are not worth it".  

You sure you're not getting a distorted view of the game because of your high ascension and are cutting this defense because it's easier to use defenses w/o HP instead of it not 'doing' enough?  It's really good.. and I think it'd be a mistake to "give it some love" when there are some pretty deeply flawed fundamentals across just the damage towers that have still not been figured out

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@Pachipachio quote:

Hm, I'm pretty sure +50% DP on towers it can buff is still extremely strong and it's one of the better towers in the game because of that shard. 

I cant really speak for other towers, but Flame Auras in 19.4 scaled well with DP (all defenses should have been standardized in that patch), then in 19.5 crit damage got buffed, now I do not know if they nerfed Flame Aura DP scaling but as of 19.5 DP is utter trash at end game. To do damage you need attack speed, crit chance and crit dmg, which makes frosties worse as a buff then boost auras, and not much better as a slow. 

The real icing on the cake though is how standard towers are being demolished by EMP Kobolds if you do not have high enough burst to kill them.


@Pachipachio quote:

So, I don't really see your "defenses seem very powerful on their own while synergies from this tower just are not worth it".  

You sure you're not getting a distorted view of the game because of your high ascension and are cutting this defense because it's easier to use defenses w/o HP instead of it not 'doing' enough?  It's really good.. and I think it'd be a mistake to "give it some love" when there are some pretty deeply flawed fundamentals across just the damage towers that have still not been figured out

Its almost like you think I haven't thought about this^^ Anyway my issues stand on the premise that DP scaling has been standardized across the board (which apparently it was after 19.4). So lets see how popular this tower stays, I have dropped it already in favor of another slow/buff. 

But the main issue is how easily they are destroyed or targeted by EMP kobolds, even beating blockades in agro. Randomly placed decoy blockades dont work reliably sadly.


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The DP:DCD ratio is the same (1:5) across basically everything

the 50% DP still amounts to +30% DCD if you're using power transfer (which everyone probably is for their damaging towers).  Perhaps it's even +40% if defense crit damage shard's +34% is able to increase the DCD damage given by power transfer through frosty power.  Makes a humongous difference for me in-game when I can spend 30 DU to increase the damage of 4-5 towers (fissures/bees) by that amount

@Zimmermann quote:

which makes frosties worse as a buff then boost auras, and not much better as a slow. 

I don't think boost aura gives +30% DCD.  Unless the +20% shard for boost auras give 20 pct points making it .3 or increase its .1 to .12?


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@Pachipachio quote:

The DP:DCD ratio is the same (1:5) across basically everything

the 50% DP still amounts to +30% DCD if you're using power transfer (which everyone probably is for their damaging towers).  Perhaps it's even +40% if defense crit damage shard's +34% is able to increase the DCD damage given by power transfer through frosty power.  Makes a humongous difference for me in-game when I can spend 30 DU to increase the damage of 4-5 towers (fissures/bees) by that amount

@Zimmermann quote:

which makes frosties worse as a buff then boost auras, and not much better as a slow. 

I don't think boost aura gives +30% DCD.  Unless the +20% shard for boost auras give 20 pct points making it .3 or increase its .1 to .12?


I think the best way to put it is, adding flame auras or additional defenses is having the same effect as adding this slow/buff. Synergy between defense types should yield greater results then just derp more of the same...

in 19.4 Frosties were god tier, in 19.5 i don't even notice the difference between more flame auras or 1-2 frosties per lane.

The reason I like BA's is because of C7 mainly, not because its massively better, but it is massively better in C7 at least.

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Yeah, I agree if we're talking about frosty (or anything with HP for that matter that isn't a wall) it's kind of wonky in C7 because you either want to not use those towers or trick kobolts into suiciding on bait towers or environment 


but.. idk if the devs should be introducing monsters that disrupt the balance of the game so badly and then bringing all the towers the monster is meant to disrupt in line with the new monster.  It's like this weird cycle of problems whose solution creates a similar problem that needs a similar solution... etc

I see it like,

  • Devs want us to have more difficulty in planning defenses 
  • Devs design a hard-counter effect to a particular tower quality
  • Devs get feedback that some towers are being countered too hard
  • Devs buff those towers
  • Devs want us to have more difficulty in planning defenses

idk, I think if we just buffed frosties, and all other towers with HP because of the kobolt then what was the kobolt for.  And if the game is dull with the kobolt then the kobolt has to get redesigned or just tossed


Edit: I think everything I'm saying here is just going to mirror similar sentiments I've made in other threads and I don't want to poop this one up with my ideas anymore.  It's supposed to be about frosty feedback anyway, not the game as a whole

my bad

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[[82743,users]] have you tried replacing your frosties with just MORE of the other towers you are using? if not give it a go and tell me how much of a difference it made. Thats the heart of my issue rather then Kobolds kiling frosties in C7, because that can be fixed with a nerf to koblds or simply accept its a hard counter and change strat.

In fact I am removing that from my original post as its just missleading.

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@Zimmermann quote:

So I have been an avid fan of Frostbite Towers since I can remember, however it feels that their slow and buffs are just not that effective anymore. This is made worse by the extreme damage of the new EMP Kobolds that can take my 600k Health towers down in about 2 hits.

Some bullet points on their main issues.

  • You have to continuously repair Frosties and replacing them due to excecive EMP Kobold damage.
  • They are not worth sinking 50 mana into for upgrades
  • Their slow is just irrelevant without the slow shard (not tried them with it)
  • Frosty Power fix was fine, but with all the other nerfs they excel in nothing now.
  • Crit damage from buffs seems far far superior to defense power, Defense power being almost irrelevant, unless the Defense buffed has Power Transfer. Meaning Frosties buff for nothing.

To cut a long story short, defenses seem very powerful on their own while synergies from this tower just are not worth it. 

I really would like to see this tower seeing some love even if it has to come at the cost of other towers being nerfed. Synergies are fun, and this tower is sadly no longer in my C7 setup due to it being to easy to destroy and having such a weak buff and slow. Thank god for a second Classic Hero slow option^^

  • EMP kobalds I'm thinking do too much damage... I'd love it if their EMP lasted an uber long time (like 20-30 seconds) but did mediocre damage. Other than that, they're a cool concept. A flying enemy that goes through lane, and a suicider that disables rather than kills (least I think that was the intent lol).
  • The slow upgrades currently are trash. I thought they were perfectly balanced before the nerf. No clue why they changed the upgrade scaling.
  • Slow shard is garbage. It needs a buff imo. By themselves I think they're just SLIIIGHTLY under powered...Considering each lane usually gets around 100-200 DU for non-walls... That frosty needs to amplify their effective of each tower near it by around 30-50% just to break even (and it really needs more, because one biggest benefit of slows is clumping for AOE, which has a silly cap...). Currently it does around 25% T1 and I think like 45% T5? Of course this is without shards though...
  • Agreed about the nerfs.

And as far as the frosty power strength... These calculations are based on a few presumptions: primary to secondary stats are about a 1:2 ratio; Most people use 30% crit chance; all towers have a 1:5 scaling for DP:DCrit; your frosty tower is using a medallion; we're ignoring the slow, which is multiplicative with this increase.

Auras with medallions gain about 29% effective DPS from frosty power.

Auras with marks gain about 25% effective DPS from frosty power.

Auras with orbs gain about 40% effective DPS from frosty power.

Of course ascension screws with those numbers though... If I'm thinking it through right, every few ascension levels should push the increase towards around 27% more effective DPS. And if you're not investing into DP for your frosty tower in ascension, their strength will of course decrease more.

@Pachipachio quote:

-snip-

Pretty sure power transfer doesn't apply to frosty power DP bonus. Could be wrong... But pretty sure.

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Nah, I haven't tried w/o because it didn't make sense, mathematically, to do that 

It definitely works with power transfer, my fissures do 164k and crit and 23.2k regular in tavern, and (checked just now, you motivated me start at least a c6 game up lol) with frosty it's 229k crit and 39.3k regular

frosty app has 15778 DP medallion with nothing relevant in ascension points & shards: duet, range, frosty power

lavamancer has 11526 DP medallion with 4803 DCD/DS & shards: power transfer, crit damage+34%, attack rate


so it added 64k DCD which is equal to 6,400 DCD (fissure has a 1:10 scalar on dcd).  Which is about 40% of the frosty app's medallion's DP

so, not only does power transfer work, but the defense crit damage+ shard works on the defense crit gained from frosty power getting converted into defense crit by power transfer

might be better to just drop duet in some cases and get destruction on it


so... it's better now than it was before the crit patch.  If we ignore the stacking of frosty nodes

Edit: Made some edits b/c forgot to include shards (more specifically the fact that I don't have destruction on frosty)

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@xArcAngel quote:

Of course ascension screws with those numbers though... If I'm thinking it through right, every few ascension levels should push the increase towards around 27% more effective DPS.

On second thought... This is wrong. Thinking about it on an infinite scale, it should actually push towards 20%. That's what I get for a half thought post waiting for a bus...

Oh... And totems start below that 20% and go upwards with ascension levels.

Base totem frosty boost:

Aura with medallion gets +14%

Aura with mark gets +12%

Aura with orb gets +20% (which is interesting... cause that means this is constant at all ascension values).

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@Pachipachio quote:

-snip-

Eww.... That makes calculating this properly annoying lol. But thanks for the info! That's interesting to hear though, because last I heard, the power transfer shard didn't wasn't amplified by the bonus crit damage shard? Which would make for a really weird inconsistency lol.

I also forget frosty duet is a thing... Honestly, the removal of the stacking buff makes that shard garbage now lol.

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Indeed, I had actually thought I somehow had destruction on my frosties which is why I went back in game to check and make that edit since it would mean I'm getting the 34% from frosty destruction and not the 34% from crit damage on the fissure

but, ya, I'm a monkey and didn't have destruction on frosty.  Would make positioning them a bit easier on some maps w/o duet

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@Pachipachio quote:

might be better to just drop duet in some cases and get destruction on it

Does Destruction synergize with Frosty Power? Last I heard it didn't, but I don't have the shard to test it myself.

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@H3M1V3 quote:

frosties do not only buff DP, they buff critdmg as well. just saying.

indirectly, and nothing changes the fact that +2 dmg towers of the same kind = +2 frosties in lane strength. thats no synergy in action, thats just needless complexity.

now one could run a load of simulations and get a percent on how much better frosties are then just adding more of the same damage tower, and it would most likely equate to something like extra mana spent repairing blockades. 
But maybe i'm being idealistic, but synergy should make the difference between winning and losing, not just a slightly bigger repair bill.

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@calmchaos quote:
@Pachipachio quote:

might be better to just drop duet in some cases and get destruction on it

Does Destruction synergize with Frosty Power? Last I heard it didn't, but I don't have the shard to test it myself.

Never heard anything about this but it's definitely possible

Checked it out just now, same everything as above except destruction instead of duet

aaand no change, still 39k regular and 229k crit!  So destruction actually doesn't work with frosty and I'll be keeping duet in just to better guarantee towers are getting the buff


@H3M1V3 quote:

frosties do not only buff DP, they buff critdmg as well. just saying.

Ok, checked this too and w/o power transfer I get 0 change to crit damage under a frosty

So, idk where you got this from but it doesn't seem to be right


my above example shows that frosty power is adding exactly the amount of DCD you would expect if power transfer and crit damage+% worked for it.

I think it's pretty much concluded atm

@Zimmermann quote:

indirectly, and nothing changes the fact that +2 dmg towers of the same kind = +2 frosties in lane strength. thats no synergy in action, thats just needless complexity.

now one could run a load of simulations and get a percent on how much better frosties are then just adding more of the same damage tower, and it would most likely equate to something like extra mana spent repairing blockades. 
But maybe i'm being idealistic, but synergy should make the difference between winning and losing, not just a slightly bigger repair bill.

What does +2 dmg tower = +2 frosties in lane strength mean?  

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a lot of old info is being rehashed here. no bonus crit dmg/DP shard on the frosties relic will carry through to a defense being buffed with frosty power. But on the defense being buffed the DP that is given via frosty power is calculated like normal, therefore power transfer/destruction and even crit dmg (through power transfer) all work.

back on topic, its not how much damage can appear on a tool tip, its the effectiveness of frosties in a lane verses just more damage towers. The reality for me is, frosties add very little and are barely noticeable to just adding more flame auras. 

Again some defenses might do better then others, I have just seen a massive drop off in the power of frosties from 19.4 to 19.5 which just makes them feel bad considering all damage towers got a huge buff.

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The drop off can only be due to frosty nodes no longer stacking since they're measurably better now than before 


They're so crazily game changing I'm like.. sort of at a loss of words that you're saying they need to be buffed.  Yes, maybe it's a little tougher with your flame auras - I've seen glimpses of your build in your videos and you still maximize their #s in the lane yeah? causes them to be off to the side (due to "aura too close to another aura" thingy)... making it harder for the frosty to connect.  


Perhaps it would rewarding for you to try frosties while centralizing flame auras (like, their node being directly in the path of travelling monsters) and just having a bit less in the lane.  Because man, +50% DP and +40% DCD is just... really good lol

It's downright disgusting with fissures and bees (admittedly, I haven't used both in a build yet since I only ever got one mythic/legendary medallion with DCD/DS secondaries - and it's a bit tougher to climb with trees + a single target defense) but they're guaranteed to be buffed at just about all times without thinking about positioning at all so it's the uber lazy man's building

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@Pachipachio quote:

-snip-

I will agree with you that frosty power is still good... It's always been one of the strongest passives in this game.

But when you neglect that one specific shard, I feel frosties come out kinda under powered. And yeah... buffing frosties can open up a can of worms because of frosty power... But I think it's kind of weird to leave a tower in a place where it's too weak without one specific shard, in one specific build style, when at it's core it's suppose to be a nice utility for almost all towers.

But maybe I'm in the minority on that one...

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