Jump to content

I think im done again x.x


Recommended Posts


@Charr Legion quote:

DD2 has been plagued with bad or extremely questionable game design since it's launch. The community has tried helping with good feedback nearly every patch but none of it is taken seriously. I think we're getting to a point where Trendy seriously needs to consider hiring a new creative director.

Sometimes's it's perfectly reasonable to ignore community feedback.  A majority of us don't have the end-goal in mind when we're commenting (I know I don't) so we can only say what we like and what we don't like, currently.  Maybe what we don't like makes sense later on.. and what we like makes little sense later on.  It should be the case that the lead designer will usually know better than the players what the game needs next, what it needs to tune, remove, etc


Plenty of feedback has been taken seriously though and sometimes patch notes are directly copied from community suggestions and/or feedback

but.. in a twisted sort of irony that's a bad sign, for me.  Implies we're getting a game pieced together without a large overarching vision of what it should be.  Like.. what is the game supposed to play like, as a finished product?

What are we building towards?  Is this basically the future of the game?  The same experience of C5 -> C7 ad infinitum with C8, C9, C10, C11, C# with a new enemy thrown in each one?  Bleh.


And how dumb is it that we're playing a TD game where some of our most-deep-into-the-content players have been clearing it with just flame auras (sry zimmer, but this is silly and idk why you want this) - likewise, some of our most vocal players actively suggest that devs should change designs in such a way that it facilitates the primary use of one tower, like flame aura (what is wrong with not being able to clear content when trying to brute force it with primarily one tower...).

The tower defense aspect is so weak... it's mostly about out-stating the stuff by farming instead answering questions about which tower would be best here? where should it go? should I upgrade it or use the mana to build another tower?  

The last two attempts of tower balancing should be a wake up call for both devs and players since it's kind of obvious that one of our own's spreadsheeting influenced it a lot (and btw lol buff beam balance talk in other threads - good luck with that when we're two years and several attempts deep in balancing LSA, blaze balloon, earthshatter, etc)


Oh and of course the devs must have asked themselves months ago "how do we get the players to use different towers" and the first answer to that was the siege roller.  And the feedback on that was mixed... so they removed what people whined about and double downed on what people liked: hello cybork, shield geode, and vanguards.  Hard counters are just plain lazy design.  If I had a TD game and all my players were using the arrow tower to clear it, my solution better not be to just ban the arrow tower.  


So, yeah, some feedback is good feedback and some is terrible.  Good feedback, imo, is that hard-counter effects is a lazy answer to the question of how to get players to use different towers.  Bad feedback, imo, is the effectiveness of all towers should be equalized in such a way that we can clear content with the primary use of any one tower (like, flame aura)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Pachipachio quote:


@Charr Legion quote:

DD2 has been plagued with bad or extremely questionable game design since it's launch. The community has tried helping with good feedback nearly every patch but none of it is taken seriously. I think we're getting to a point where Trendy seriously needs to consider hiring a new creative director.

So, yeah, some feedback is good feedback and some is terrible.  Good feedback, imo, is that hard-counter effects is a lazy answer to the question of how to get players to use different towers.  Bad feedback, imo, is the effectiveness of all towers should be equalized in such a way that we can clear content with the primary use of any one tower (like, flame aura)

That's what I was referring to. There have been several large threads on the forums that have been buried over the years from thoughtful and intelligent members of the community who have successfully pointed out major flaws in the game's structure and general ways to fix said flaws. 

I would say they don't take the communities feedback in a way that benefits the game. There's a difference between seeing several threads complaining about how strong something is - and they nerf it, to complaining about how strong something is, and working in ways for the userbase to play against it. 

My point being that, like you said, the game is a patch work. There was no strong cohesive design strategy going into the game (partially evident by the old influence system we used) and many changes often seem made on a whim. There is no plan here. The game's future is very much created on the fly, nearly on a weekly basis. This is blatantly shown with the existence of "Chaos Trials" which is a system the developers added to further end game content yet it's such an obvious design flaw on so many levels - mainly, it creates more work for the developer and adds several points of contention.

What would have been smart, and myself and several players have been very vocal about this for years - is if DD2 focused on Onslaught mode more than anything else. A game that wants longevity needs to create a function that automatically generates that longevity. DD1 did it with Survival Mode; it created a several hundred hour grind that was fulfilling without much effort on the developmental front. Yet DD2 has always been about hand-holding. Trendy (and Blacksmith) have repeatedly pushed out content like Incursions, or new maps, or now Chaos tiers, that constantly add more to their workload, more places for balance to fall apart, more of a gap between casual and hardcore, and more difficulty making things viable vs not-viable.


Ultimately, DD2 continues to take huge strides backward when compared to DD1 and I reiterate my point that there needs to be a new design head who can actually strategize what needs to be done for long-term success.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, agreed.  I mostly assumed you meant what I elaborated on, just thought it was a good quote to expand on for other readers

@Charr Legion quote:


What would have been smart, and myself and several players have been very vocal about this for years - is if DD2 focused on Onslaught mode more than anything else. A game that wants longevity needs to create a function that automatically generates that longevity. DD1 did it with Survival Mode; it created a several hundred hour grind that was fulfilling without much effort on the developmental front. Yet DD2 has always been about hand-holding. Trendy (and Blacksmith) have repeatedly pushed out content like Incursions, or new maps, or now Chaos tiers, that constantly add more to their workload, more places for balance to fall apart, more of a gap between casual and hardcore, and more difficulty making things viable vs not-viable.

Yeah... I think they're trying to capture the essence of that with unlimited chaos tiers.  But, like you said.. tough on them to keep with it (and given their ability to keep up with more-mundane things like balance it's... well, these chaos tiers are like a house of cards to me)

It's like they copied what makes D3 pretty cool (paragon-ascension and greater rifts-chaos tiers)

but totally flubbed it.  

Imagine if D3 had a limited number of greater rifts and each greater rift dropped scaled up gear, lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe I made enough page long posts at this point, I'm going to keep this post small.

I'll say this as simple as I can, I liked the PDT era better. Not because PDTs were broken, but...

  1. I could use any tower any time I wanted. Right now, all these special mobs are just... fake difficulty. All they do is lower build creativity. "EMP Orc: This minion makes all traps and auras unusable" and "Shield Goblin: This minion makes all projectile towers unusable" are horrible design decisions. Why do I need to spend a hours and hours of unenjoyable time fighting EMP orcs to get to the next tier?
  2. Ascension didn't exist. Ascension acts as both hand holding "no matter how much you suck, you can eventually get enough stats naked to complete all the content" and a horrible design decision to balance around. How do you intent to balance around infinite scaling? Look at Diablo 3... they tried "Ascension" and it managed to kill their game... Diablo 3, a Blizzard game, DIED as a competitive game and one of the main reasons is because of Ascension. Not even 'seasons' saved Diablo 3.
  3. Gear actually dropped.
  4. There was less RNG before the Trial's patch than there is now when it comes to shards. Unless you wanted to absolutely minmax and didn't care for the 10 main stat you were missing.
  5. Did I mention game balance was actually getting close to good and balanced? There were small tweaks they could have done and it would have resulted in fixes. Instead, with trials, they threw band-aid fix after band-aid fix and now all we have is an amalgamation of very poor mechanics.
  6. And finally, personally, I played this game for Onslaught. Even if it was poorly implemented, I got the most fun out of Onslaught. Trying to break personal (and posted) bests was where the fun was at for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@mmm quote:

man everyone have fun in different way, diablo3 is one the worst *** games i have ever tried, yet milions of ppl played it

and it was *** as hell with such a nonsense balance and totally untifun

and coming from a multi billion company like blizzard, d3 was much more unbalanced than DD2 tbh


ppl like what they like

Sorry if I wasn't clear... I don't mean I don't see how people can LIKE dd2. I actually still LIKE dd2. It's just very lacking in long term play-ability for me. That's what I meant by I don't see how people can play this as long as they do in it's current state.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So many good posts! and that one troll but meh, not gonna feed it.


I like a lot of the posts i see, people saying what trendy needs to see.

I agree with TMTrainer too, back in the PDT era things seemed to be much more stable, like there was an clear goal trendy was trying to go for. Course wasnt it also around that time they had a leadership change? Now everything is just, kinda going all over the place? Yes direction has changed and yes they have made few attempts to try and balance it, but it's still just a mess to wade through all the time.

Trendy really should take a step back, or set a person aside to gather ideas from the forum that they are going to listen to cause there has been sooooooo many beautifully done threads explaining whats wrong ,detailing what could be done. Hell i think of some of those thread makers should even be hired to work on the game, we might see some real balance and improvements coming to the game then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Maverick quote:

The game is so bug ridden for me, that I've been tempted to just pay to win my way to Chaos 7 at this point now.

Please don't give Trendy any ideas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@gigazelle quote:
@Maverick quote:

The game is so bug ridden for me, that I've been tempted to just pay to win my way to Chaos 7 at this point now.

Please don't give Trendy any ideas.

Rumor has it, that if you complain about how strong the bugs are, Trendy will nerf it to oblivion. 

RIP Nimbus Cloud...

RIP PDT...

RIP Skeletal Archers..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The burnout is a rather serious problem in the game right now.  It feels like the game is always trying to work against you, like it doesn't want you to play.  Sure, progress can be made by sitting on the grind for hours on end, but the grind just isn't fun, and it gets even worse when something like a Malthius shot or a behind the wall skeleton loses the map for you.

If I wanted to, I could break out of C4 by grinding up ascension and whatnot, but ultimately I just don't see the fun in it.  Progression is a real slog, and a lot of really counter-intuitive systems just break any desire to push forward.

If I had to pick just some really generalized elements that need to be changed to make the game fun again, I'd probably go with the following:

Progression: There needs to be a clearly defined progression, none of this bizarre fighting the system and trying to manipulate your hero deck so the same content drops better gear for you.  In addition, it needs to be smooth.  Progression should be a linear function that gradually increases over time, it shouldn't be a chemistry graph showing elements changing states (bonus points to anyone who understands that reference.)


Basic Functionality:  Towers need to work, it's as simple as that really.  And on the flip side, enemies need to behave consistently.  While the Early Access argument is still valid, the fact of the matter is that the game is out to the public right now, and the players are going to lose interest if they log in and things make the game literally unplayable.  No one wants to lose a game because enemies are using the magic of glitch to bypass your walls.


End Game:  There needs to be something that is definitively the end game.  Getting a carrot on a stick is fine and all, but unless you're prepared to constantly add an unlimited number of chaos trials, that carrot is going to age and get moldy.  There needs to be something to *do* with all that shiny new loot we find, like with some version of a survival/onslaught mode.  The moral of the story is: the game needs to be fun to play.  If the only draw to the game is finding a shinier pair of pants, then you're either going to make those pants so rare no one wants to find them, or too accessible and people want new pants to find.  If those shiny pants let you go dance at the disco parlor, then there's something meaningful in getting them.


I was tempted to put in a fourth point about really aggravating systems like gold acquisition and paying for respecs, but honestly those problems come second to the real core issues with the game.  

There are a lot of really brilliant ideas in DD2, the problem is that they are either undeveloped or come with other problems.  With that being said, it really all bottles down to communication.  I would hope people don't choose to simply drop off and say nothing, because DD2 has a massively untapped potential that is still within reach.  On the flip side, it's up to Trendy to recognize those potentials and see them through.  I really liked when very specific topics were addressed for feedback, either through surveys or dev-posted threads.  I see a lot of really brilliant feedback in various threads, but I also see a lot of get getting lost in many different places.  As a community, we should try to focus on very specific feedback elements to make it easier for Trendy to communicate with us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...