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Loot based on your current equipment instead of difficulty - real nonsense. Why does the system punish you for completion of maps at a higher difficulty?!

For this reason, I can't invite many of my friends into the game (i can't boost them, and leveling from Campaign to Chaos X will take a huge amount of time and resources).

The current loot system must be changed (loot from the Chaos X always must be Chaos X's loot), otherwise the game is doomed.

PS: For public matches can be added a certain functionality (ascension requirement, "host" function, etc).

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@Nickstor quote:

Loot based on your current equipment instead of difficulty - real nonsense. Why does the system punish you for completion of maps at a higher difficulty?!

For this reason, I can't invite many of my friends into the game (i can't boost them, and leveling from Campaign to Chaos X will take a huge amount of time and resources).

The current loot system must be changed (loot from the Chaos X always must be Chaos X's loot), otherwise the game is doomed.

PS: For public matches can be added a certain functionality (ascension requirement, "host" function, etc).

Because it´s free to play. They want you to spend as much time progressing through the game, as possible. More time spent in the game = higher chance of you spending money on the game.

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I have seen no one free-to-play game with the same absurd inverted loot system. Absurd system = fewer players. Other solutions must be used to increase the time spent in the game (unique items, interesting possibilities, etc).
By the way, I fully support the decision with the possibility of buying Shards for real money.

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@Nickstor quote:

I have seen no one free-to-play game with the same absurd inverted loot system. Absurd system = fewer players. Other solutions must be used to increase the time spent in the game (unique items, interesting possibilities, etc).

By the way, I fully support the decision with the possibility of buying Shards for real money.

While I agree with you on the original topic of Loot being tied to current gear ( to some extent ).


I cannot possibly agree with the Shards for money. 


It's a cash grab and lazy way out to a system that was flawed from the start.

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basing loot on what you currently have isn't the problem.  the problem is that it's a hidden system and has some rather nasty consequences they need to address

1. it should take the highest piece of gear per slot on ANY of your characters (or any currently in deck).  it's stupid to have to de-activate heroes in your deck to optimize your drops, or to conglom all your good items only on to one character

2. it should work in campaign as well, there's no reason it should ever be dropping level 46 gear for a level 1 character

3. needs to have some kinda playtip or tutorial, "equipping gear with higher stats will get your better drops, upgrade your gear with gold or defender medals to reap the rewards of victory".  then when an item drops that was reduced because your gear sucks TELL THE PLAYER "ipwr 350 legendary dropped instead of ipwr450"

as a system it CAN work.  it's just not working right now

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@ram1024 quote:

basing loot on what you currently have isn't the problem.  the problem is that it's a hidden system and has some rather nasty consequences they need to address

1. it should take the highest piece of gear per slot on ANY of your characters (or any currently in deck).  it's stupid to have to de-activate heroes in your deck to optimize your drops, or to conglom all your good items only on to one character

2. it should work in campaign as well, there's no reason it should ever be dropping level 46 gear for a level 1 character

3. needs to have some kinda playtip or tutorial, "equipping gear with higher stats will get your better drops, upgrade your gear with gold or defender medals to reap the rewards of victory".  then when an item drops that was reduced because your gear sucks TELL THE PLAYER "ipwr 350 legendary dropped instead of ipwr450"

as a system it CAN work.  it's just not working right now

Yeah, hopefully the patch next week will address the lack of in-game direction on the system. This is probably the biggest problem for new players and fixing it will prevent angst for them and keep them playing and having fun.

While it is a problem having its details hidden instead of some explanations on the inventory screens, beyond that the system works really well. Getting carried will still really speed up gearing up, but people will not just go from the campaign to the highest difficulty like before and cut out all the middle gear/content.

Granted, there may need to be some gates as people are still trying to go Campaign to CT5 :(

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@geo981010 quote:

Yeah, hopefully the patch next week will address the lack of in-game direction on the system. This is probably the biggest problem for new players and fixing it will prevent angst for them and keep them playing and having fun.

While it is a problem having its details hidden instead of some explanations on the inventory screens, beyond that the system works really well. Getting carried will still really speed up gearing up, but people will not just go from the campaign to the highest difficulty like before and cut out all the middle gear/content.

Granted, there may need to be some gates as people are still trying to go Campaign to CT5 :(

The Moment you have Shards dropping on specific stages, it gives people a reason to go there or even carry others there. 

It should be possible to carry/carried, specially with this Trials system. :\ 


Not to mention that there's no hard restriction on Chaos levels :\

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@Elyssae quote:


@geo981010 quote:

Yeah, hopefully the patch next week will address the lack of in-game direction on the system. This is probably the biggest problem for new players and fixing it will prevent angst for them and keep them playing and having fun.

While it is a problem having its details hidden instead of some explanations on the inventory screens, beyond that the system works really well. Getting carried will still really speed up gearing up, but people will not just go from the campaign to the highest difficulty like before and cut out all the middle gear/content.

Granted, there may need to be some gates as people are still trying to go Campaign to CT5 :(

The Moment you have Shards dropping on specific stages, it gives people a reason to go there or even carry others there. 

It should be possible to carry/carried, specially with this Trials system. :\ 


Not to mention that there's no hard restriction on Chaos levels :\

Yeah - helping people out is a positive thing in the game, and you should be able to do so in private party games. But we need some way for public games to prevent campaign geared players from joining CT5 games - it is killing public games.

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@Nickstor quote:

I have seen no one free-to-play game with the same absurd inverted loot system. Absurd system = fewer players. Other solutions must be used to increase the time spent in the game (unique items, interesting possibilities, etc).

By the way, I fully support the decision with the possibility of buying Shards for real money.

I don´t see how it differs from other games were loot is level based. In other games you cant wear some loot untill you´re a certain level. It´s pretty much the same here, it´s just: you won´t GET it untill you´ve met the appropriate requirements. I think what bugs people the most, is that it´s not very transparent what you need to do, to get better gear. 

Let´s be honest: Everybody would skip C1-C4 if it was possible to leech C5 gear directly out of campaign, so I totally understand why they made it this way. Just try to start a public C5 and see how many leechers instantly pops into your game. They are the people who wanna skip the entire game and just be max geared max fast - without any effort.

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@Nickstor quote:

Loot based on your current equipment instead of difficulty - real nonsense. Why does the system punish you for completion of maps at a higher difficulty?!

For this reason, I can't invite many of my friends into the game (i can't boost them, and leveling from Campaign to Chaos X will take a huge amount of time and resources).

The current loot system must be changed (loot from the Chaos X always must be Chaos X's loot), otherwise the game is doomed.

PS: For public matches can be added a certain functionality (ascension requirement, "host" function, etc).

i love the new loot system, it makes players think and be able to last longer.  the resources does need a HUGE change.  they need to be lower and boost gold income.  it sounds like you want to boost your RL friends. that fine. wont take long for them to hit 50 (be around 90mins)  for the gear system. many guildes to make gearing faster. 

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@geo981010 quote:


@Elyssae quote:


@geo981010 quote:

Yeah, hopefully the patch next week will address the lack of in-game direction on the system. This is probably the biggest problem for new players and fixing it will prevent angst for them and keep them playing and having fun.

While it is a problem having its details hidden instead of some explanations on the inventory screens, beyond that the system works really well. Getting carried will still really speed up gearing up, but people will not just go from the campaign to the highest difficulty like before and cut out all the middle gear/content.

Granted, there may need to be some gates as people are still trying to go Campaign to CT5 :(

The Moment you have Shards dropping on specific stages, it gives people a reason to go there or even carry others there. 

It should be possible to carry/carried, specially with this Trials system. :\ 


Not to mention that there's no hard restriction on Chaos levels :\

Yeah - helping people out is a positive thing in the game, and you should be able to do so in private party games. But we need some way for public games to prevent campaign geared players from joining CT5 games - it is killing public games.


I wholeheartedly agree with this. Creating or Joining a Public game is a nightmare right now and the lack of game setup is the main cause.

@MaJean quote:


@Nickstor quote:

I have seen no one free-to-play game with the same absurd inverted loot system. Absurd system = fewer players. Other solutions must be used to increase the time spent in the game (unique items, interesting possibilities, etc).

By the way, I fully support the decision with the possibility of buying Shards for real money.

I don´t see how it differs from other games were loot is level based. In other games you cant wear some loot untill you´re a certain level. It´s pretty much the same here, it´s just: you won´t GET it untill you´ve met the appropriate requirements. I think what bugs people the most, is that it´s not very transparent what you need to do, to get better gear. 

Let´s be honest: Everybody would skip C1-C4 if it was possible to leech C5 gear directly out of campaign, so I totally understand why they made it this way. Just try to start a public C5 and see how many leechers instantly pops into your game. They are the people who wanna skip the entire game and just be max geared max fast.

But this is not "other games". This has Dungeon Defenders in it's name. Thats one of the things that made it different from other games. It allowed for casual fun grind while bringing the community together. 

There used to be tons and tons of public games of hosts want to carry people. Were they that nice? Self Righteous ? Of course not. The more people you had, the MORE LOOT DROPPED. It's that simple. 

Hosts would still gain something from it, while others got helped/carried. It was a Symbiotic relationship instead of a Leeching one. It worked.


yes I know people would skip Chaos 1-4 if you could get carried, but then they would be back to ch1-4 to get the shards, and since they had the gear to breeze through them, chances are, they would actually play with PUBLIC game instead of private. And that's how you establish a community. Everyone does their own things while helping others as a byproduct. You keep the wheel turning instead of Breaking it Daenarys Style.


I've mentioned this in the past, but there's not really a reason not to use Trials as the "GEAR UP FAST AND SEE THE WORLD!" game mode. 

- Gear up in trials, whatever way possible

  - Use said gear to tackle Incursions / Onslaught / Endless mode / New Campaign Bosses. 

          - Use the -UNIQUE REWARDS- from these modes to compliment your heroes . ( Weapons, Gear Sets. Etc).


This is a Dungeon Defenders Game. The way I currently see it, Trendy acts with shame about their own IP trying to hide their shortcomings. Be proud of what you created. Love your Game. Don't do what other Companies/games do. Be your own thing. 

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@Elyssae quote:


@geo981010 quote:


@Elyssae quote:


@geo981010 quote:

Yeah, hopefully the patch next week will address the lack of in-game direction on the system. This is probably the biggest problem for new players and fixing it will prevent angst for them and keep them playing and having fun.

While it is a problem having its details hidden instead of some explanations on the inventory screens, beyond that the system works really well. Getting carried will still really speed up gearing up, but people will not just go from the campaign to the highest difficulty like before and cut out all the middle gear/content.

Granted, there may need to be some gates as people are still trying to go Campaign to CT5 :(

The Moment you have Shards dropping on specific stages, it gives people a reason to go there or even carry others there. 

It should be possible to carry/carried, specially with this Trials system. :\ 


Not to mention that there's no hard restriction on Chaos levels :\

Yeah - helping people out is a positive thing in the game, and you should be able to do so in private party games. But we need some way for public games to prevent campaign geared players from joining CT5 games - it is killing public games.


I wholeheartedly agree with this. Creating or Joining a Public game is a nightmare right now and the lack of game setup is the main cause.

@MaJean quote:


@Nickstor quote:

I have seen no one free-to-play game with the same absurd inverted loot system. Absurd system = fewer players. Other solutions must be used to increase the time spent in the game (unique items, interesting possibilities, etc).

By the way, I fully support the decision with the possibility of buying Shards for real money.

I don´t see how it differs from other games were loot is level based. In other games you cant wear some loot untill you´re a certain level. It´s pretty much the same here, it´s just: you won´t GET it untill you´ve met the appropriate requirements. I think what bugs people the most, is that it´s not very transparent what you need to do, to get better gear. 

Let´s be honest: Everybody would skip C1-C4 if it was possible to leech C5 gear directly out of campaign, so I totally understand why they made it this way. Just try to start a public C5 and see how many leechers instantly pops into your game. They are the people who wanna skip the entire game and just be max geared max fast.

But this is not "other games". This has Dungeon Defenders in it's name. Thats one of the things that made it different from other games. It allowed for casual fun grind while bringing the community together. 

There used to be tons and tons of public games of hosts want to carry people. Were they that nice? Self Righteous ? Of course not. The more people you had, the MORE LOOT DROPPED. It's that simple. 

Hosts would still gain something from it, while others got helped/carried. It was a Symbiotic relationship instead of a Leeching one. It worked.


yes I know people would skip Chaos 1-4 if you could get carried, but then they would be back to ch1-4 to get the shards, and since they had the gear to breeze through them, chances are, they would actually play with PUBLIC game instead of private. And that's how you establish a community. Everyone does their own things while helping others as a byproduct. You keep the wheel turning instead of Breaking it Daenarys Style.


I've mentioned this in the past, but there's not really a reason not to use Trials as the "GEAR UP FAST AND SEE THE WORLD!" game mode. 

- Gear up in trials, whatever way possible

  - Use said gear to tackle Incursions / Onslaught / Endless mode / New Campaign Bosses. 

          - Use the -UNIQUE REWARDS- from these modes to compliment your heroes . ( Weapons, Gear Sets. Etc).


This is a Dungeon Defenders Game. The way I currently see it, Trendy acts with shame about their own IP trying to hide their shortcomings. Be proud of what you created. Love your Game. Don't do what other Companies/games do. Be your own thing. 

Yes it has Dungeon Defenders in the name, but it´s not DD1, don´t forget that they went in another direction completely, when they made it free to play. I wish it was more like DD1 I really really do, but that ship  has sailed.

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@MaJean quote:

Yes it has Dungeon Defenders in the name, but it´s not DD1, don´t forget that they went in another direction completely, when they made it free to play. I wish it was more like DD1 I really really do, but that ship  has sailed.

They did. The original concept was for a MOBA Style game based on the DD franchise/name.


Then a whole HELL and shiat storm ensued within the company itself and the remaining staff gave us the game we have now.


Bottom line, the MOBA ship sailed, we got DD back . The DD based on DD1, not the vision that was originally intended for DD2.

(Yes, I am aware of the reputation Kotaku suffers from, but in this case, they actually did a really good job.)

http://kotaku.com/investigation-a-video-game-studio-from-hell-511872642

http://kotaku.com/shake-up-at-studio-from-hell-512135529

http://kotaku.com/the-video-game-studio-from-hell-four-months-later-1447281005

http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/7/4406932/game-studio-from-hell-outed-by-whistle-blowers


Edit : http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-10-09-dungeon-defenders-2-ditches-moba-multiplayer

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@Elyssae quote:


@MaJean quote:

Yes it has Dungeon Defenders in the name, but it´s not DD1, don´t forget that they went in another direction completely, when they made it free to play. I wish it was more like DD1 I really really do, but that ship  has sailed.

They did. The original concept was for a MOBA Style game based on the DD franchise/name.


Then a whole HELL and shiat storm ensued within the company itself and the remaining staff gave us the game we have now.


Bottom line, the MOBA ship sailed, we got DD back . The DD based on DD1, not the vision that was originally intended for DD2.

(Yes, I am aware of the reputation Kotaku suffers from, but in this case, they actually did a really good job.)

http://kotaku.com/investigation-a-video-game-studio-from-hell-511872642

http://kotaku.com/shake-up-at-studio-from-hell-512135529

http://kotaku.com/the-video-game-studio-from-hell-four-months-later-1447281005

http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/7/4406932/game-studio-from-hell-outed-by-whistle-blowers


Edit : http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-10-09-dungeon-defenders-2-ditches-moba-multiplayer

The MOBA approach would have been even worse, yes, but there is a vast difference between a free to play game like DD2 and the original DD1 which was not free to play. They are almost not even comparable, other than they are both tower defense games, and have some of the same characters in it.

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@MaJean quote:
The MOBA approach would have been even worse, yes, but there is a vast difference between a free to play game like DD2 and the original DD1 which was not free to play. They are almost not even comparable, other than they are both tower defense games, and have some of the same characters in it.

Sure, there is, normally that would translate in slower content being poured out and more cosmetic stuff being prioritized in order to keep the ball rolling. Which is what's happening so far. From a business perspective, they probably don't have many other options.


From a design one, however, the current releases and gameplay direction are not making sense for the direction the game should be going or actually be at right now, according to their initial plans.

Of course, things change. All that 'best laid plans' are normally the first to fall and what not. 


But according to Trendy, the game is getting ready to get out of Early Access. With less content than it had a few months ago. With a loot system that has not been clear from the get go and tons of questionable directions regarding balancing the game. 

It boils down to "When exactly is this Getting ready to leave Early Access gonna happen?" . A year from now? A month ? 


Their reasoning behind creating this installment of DD2 was to have a True sequel / sucessor to DD1. DD1 worked. DD1 had a great community and I think that it sold reasonably well.

Given the direction they fought so hard to have, why not truly follow that spirit and give us a Tower Defense Game where the heroes are second to the towers?


It's basically a reverse situation at this point. If you make towers center stage again, you get a very unique game ( again ). Then you can create one or more modes that focus on the player Hero and it's dps. And of course, one that mixes everything up. 
Cause that's how the formula worked on DD1. And it truly worked. So why change it? :\

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Seems like the two main camps of people on this issue;

-The people who hate they change because they have friends new to the game and want to help them gear up so they can play with them.

-The people who either solo play, or have friends that are already geared and have no one they really want to help gear.

I mainly fall into the second camp myself, but I can understand the issues of the other side, but; If you want to help gear up a friend to play with you in C5, it doesn't seem like it would take someone too long to do. If they have level 50 characters, you would just need to assist them through a few  maps of each Chaos tier just so they have some basic gear in each armor slot of one hero. Meanwhile you'll be getting more chances at some Tier specific shards. Its not as fast as just jumping into C5, but it's still a fast track to the end game.

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@Elyssae quote:

I cannot possibly agree with the Shards for money. 


It's a cash grab and lazy way out to a system that was flawed from the start.

Well, I have good news for you! Shards are FREE! Just complete trials and you always earn at least 2 shards (3 if you get a win streak going!), plus you will earn in-game currency called Defender Medals that you can use to buy Shards, if you want.

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@Nickstor quote:

Loot based on your current equipment instead of difficulty - real nonsense. Why does the system punish you for completion of maps at a higher difficulty?!

For this reason, I can't invite many of my friends into the game (i can't boost them, and leveling from Campaign to Chaos X will take a huge amount of time and resources).

The current loot system must be changed (loot from the Chaos X always must be Chaos X's loot), otherwise the game is doomed.

PS: For public matches can be added a certain functionality (ascension requirement, "host" function, etc).


Absolutely right!!!

I really can’t change a word you write and I agree with it at 100%! “game is doomed”, yeap…

I’m just putting a final thought to Treandy, if that… let’s call it loot system it’s to prevent leaching in public matches, you have to change public matches group acceptance, for example I can only join public matches of C”n” difficulty if I already cleared at least one C”n” trial in SOLO mode. Fair?!?


Best Regards

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The drop based on active hero also mean two (bad) things for me :

- If I want weapons for other Hero, I'm stuck to "wasting" drop. No big deal for one class but much more if I have 9 to gear ...

-  MUCH more important it means i can't use special weapon. I guess i wil be able to buy a new Meteor Bullets soon but Wailing Galive or, even worst, Mauled Cleaver are a long way off ... I guess most people don't care about look but when i spend gems to get skins it kinda make senses to be able to use cool weapon, even if it nerfs my own stats !

So +232 for drop based on best gear in Active/Total DECK. Or even the best two, for that matter

EDIT : The point 2 can be extended to people who liek to play full myth (2 shard slot) or even, god forbid, leg.

If i want my inventory to look all shiny it would be nice to be able to do so.

Yeah it get a bit far but i was used to doing it in 'old' DD2 so ... Would be nice to do it again

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:
@Elyssae quote:

I cannot possibly agree with the Shards for money. 


It's a cash grab and lazy way out to a system that was flawed from the start.

Well, I have good news for you! Shards are FREE! Just complete trials and you always earn at least 2 shards (3 if you get a win streak going!), plus you will earn in-game currency called Defender Medals that you can use to buy Shards, if you want.

I know shards are free. ( and I know you were using a bit of sarcasm there ).


The thing is, this ended up being more of a cash grab fix than a real solution to the issue. 

I'm still getting campaign  shards out of CH1-3 ones. 

DM's as of late are the cheapest way to upgrade your gear, given the extremely low amount of gold gain as well, so one currency being used to buy everything is not exactly working out that well :\ 

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@Radu Lykan

If you want to help gear up a friend to play with you in C5, it doesn't seem like it would take someone too long to do. If they have level 50 characters, you would just need to assist them through a few maps of each Chaos tier just so they have some basic gear in each armor slot of one hero. Meanwhile you'll be getting more chances at some Tier specific shards. Its not as fast as just jumping into C5, but it's still a fast track to the end game.

Don't forget about spending a large amount of resources to upgrade items, that will be thrown out after a few matches... And this is relevant not only for beginners.

Also the current loot system has other problems.

@ram1024

1. it should take the highest piece of gear per slot on ANY of your characters (or any currently in deck). it's stupid to have to de-activate heroes in your deck to optimize your drops, or to conglom all your good items only on to one character

...

3. needs to have some kinda playtip or tutorial, "equipping gear with higher stats will get your better drops, upgrade your gear with gold or defender medals to reap the rewards of victory".  then when an item drops that was reduced because your gear sucks TELL THE PLAYER "ipwr 350 legendary dropped instead of ipwr450"

@Talis Cat

The drop based on active hero also mean two (bad) things for me :

- If I want weapons for other Hero, I'm stuck to "wasting" drop. No big deal for one class but much more if I have 9 to gear ...

-  MUCH more important it means i can't use special weapon. I guess i wil be able to buy a new Meteor Bullets soon but Wailing Galive or, even worst, Mauled Cleaver are a long way off ... I guess most people don't care about look but when i spend gems to get skins it kinda make senses to be able to use cool weapon, even if it nerfs my own stats !

So +232 for drop based on best gear in Active/Total DECK. Or even the best two, for that matter

This can be used as a temporary solution.

Why do we ever have to obey the absurd system when equipping our heroes?

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@Talis Cat quote:

The drop based on active hero also mean two (bad) things for me :

- If I want weapons for other Hero, I'm stuck to "wasting" drop. No big deal for one class but much more if I have 9 to gear ...

-  MUCH more important it means i can't use special weapon. I guess i wil be able to buy a new Meteor Bullets soon but Wailing Galive or, even worst, Mauled Cleaver are a long way off ... I guess most people don't care about look but when i spend gems to get skins it kinda make senses to be able to use cool weapon, even if it nerfs my own stats !

So +232 for drop based on best gear in Active/Total DECK. Or even the best two, for that matter

EDIT : The point 2 can be extended to people who liek to play full myth (2 shard slot) or even, god forbid, leg.

If i want my inventory to look all shiny it would be nice to be able to do so.

Yeah it get a bit far but i was used to doing it in 'old' DD2 so ... Would be nice to do it again

I would agree that it would be great for the system to work on the highest character in deck. Give us the hidden iPWR for them so we know where we are too - especially with weird stat items like orbs, it is not easy to tell where you are.

One note on your first point about having to waste drops with multiple heroes though. I have all 10 hero classes too, and after getting to max CT5 drops with 4 different heroes I was worried about the same since I wanted to get rid of all my NM4 gear. I was sure I was going to start getting all these 60 upgrade legendary gear items that were not max :)

But with mythic+ CT5 armor that was upgraded decently (I think about 45 upgrades each) along with a good NM4 weapon and 3 other well geared characters (their gear was mostly not upgraded but was all mythic+ max CT5 gear), I was immediately getting max CT5 gear for the new hero class's weapon. The only time I messed it up was when I started a match before switching out a partially NM4 geared builder and did get a couple of nice drops with slightly less than max stats :(

So if you are starting getting weapons for a new hero type, get him a full suit of armor (or borrow it from your main DPS) and play with as many other chars as you can with good gear that is over the limit. If the only slot under the iPWR is 1 weapon, you should be able to make it up with the other heroes.



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So far for me the new system they put in place to find better gear is fine if and only if they change the values on upgrading gear. I am attempting to break into c4 and at this moment is sucks having to get new gear upgrade said gear just to get higher gear to drop that isn't even max stat gear. Then equip non max gear and upgrade it just to get more gear that may or may not be dropping at max stat.

It just takes far too long to get the required medals/gold to upgrade gear for as often as they want us to upgrade it.

Also personally I like the idea of an ipwr or something telling me what tier of gear I have. Like say for me to get c4 gear I need to have an average ipwr of 500 on my hero to get this gear up to say 650 for maxing out gear drops for c4. This could include upgrades to make the jump "quicker" but should still be able to get to the maxed out gear just by getting better and better drops without upgrading them.

I know this was poorly explained as I am at work and do not have time to draft out a huge explanation haha.


I do really hate having to only keep one hero in my deck though and also not being able to play my gunwitch without have a severely reduced chance at getting relics. (yes I know just add another hero that has relics but then I have to have two geared characters and it is still a reduced chance since the relics will only be rolling for your second hero and not both heroes)





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