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Dear Trendy - make CT5 rewards better + more efficient than lower CT rewards


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OK, so I have 20 minutes to kill while I wait for my 3 Forest Wins daily quest to finish (bonus - I can do the weekly at the same time!), so here goes my next plea to Trendy to stop encouraging AFK play.

It seems like DD2 would want to keep endgame players pretty much exclusively playing CT5. Any lower level quickly becomes a boring AFK where you are just waiting for the game to end, and a lot of the changes have been trying to get players to actually play the game. In my previous 2 "Dear Trendy" posts I talked about how the quests encourage or require playing in Campaign or Incursion mode, and how shards encourage playing CT difficulty levels that may be below what you should be playing at. So there are already 2 reasons why CT5 geared players are encouraged through loot to AFK play CT4 and below.

But let's compare all the rewards you earn in CT5 versus CT4/CT3:

1) Gear - since two base 5.6k relics do not equal one 8.2k one, CT5 wins hands down. If you want gear CT5 is the place to get the best stuff. Excellent job here Trendy. You only need so much of it however, and it will likely all be inferior as soon as CT6 comes out.

2) Gold - gold goes up in CT5 due to being able to sell better gear and increased wave rewards, so your gold goes up about 50% from CT3 Sewer to CT5 Sewers. So this reward scaling is ok as your gold per map goes up and gold per hour is similar if you can build CT5 efficiently.

3) XP - XP goes up some for each level of Chaos, but not nearly as fast as gold does. CT5 sewers only gives about 20% more XP than CT3 for winning them both with subobjectives. But running a CT3 map is much faster and easier: you can likely spam a couple of towers without switching out your deck, the critters will be totally overpowered and be almost instantly killed, and quickly get a AFK build that you won't have to upgrade or repair and can speed run in 6-8 minutes instead of 10+ for a CT5. So your XP per hour is likely to be higher on CT3.

4) Medals - it doesn't matter what level of Chaos you do, you always get 25 medals for a Trials win. So while your medals per map in CT5 is the same, your medals per hour goes down as you can run CT3 faster.

5) Shards - as mentioned before, there are a couple of CT5 shards that can be useful and you will want to use 1 of some of them, but there are no shards that you will want several of really. CT3 has Deadly Strikes+Shielding Guard and CT4 has Defense Rate+Power Transfer, so you will likely want to farm CT3/CT4 a lot longer than CT5. So CT5 is just worse than any group besides Chaos 2 for repeat shard farming.

So all in all, you have 1 area (gear) where CT5 is hands down better, 1 area (gold) that is probably slightly better, 2 areas where CT3 is probably more efficient (Medals + XP), and 1 area where CT3/CT4 is just better (shards). After you get enough CT5 mythic + legendary gear, you might as well start AFK farming CT3 as it will reward you more than having to actually play CT5.

If you can beat CT5 most of the time, that should be the most rewarding place for loot no matter what you are grinding for. But it really isn't right now, and so I would like things changed. XP and Medals should scale similar to gold so speed runs of lower difficulties yield about similar rewards per hour as efficient builds of CT5.

Shard balance is harder, but there were several people suggesting have Trials wins giving one shard box from every difficulty less than the current selected one. That would make give CT5 maps the same chance to find the good shards as running CT4 (if you ignore win bonus). Or consider some way of allowing trading a CT5 shard box in for a CT3 one via a vendor. Or anything that makes getting the shards you want without having to go down in difficulty levels.

If you worry about Medal scaling getting too high with CT10, perhaps you will want to cap things. But we know that running a CT with max level gear from higher CTs trivializes the win and makes it faster, so something needs to happen to prevent encouraging that. Since you can't run the highest CT with gear from higher levels, have the max CT get a 40% bonus on rewards (ie CT1-4 give 25 medals, but CT5 will give 35. When CT6 comes out, CT5 drops to 25 and CT6 gets 35). This will at least partially make up for the fact that people could be AFKing the easier difficulties instead.

And/Or offer other rewards at the top level - pet boosters, consumables that allow rerolling item stats, consumables that increase item upgrade levels. Something to make the highest tier be the obvious place you want to play if you can win there sometime.

My daily + weekly quests are complete, so no more need to kill time. But no new maps still so I think I am done for now.

Suggestions/thoughts on how to balance things or why I need to shut up please :)

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I did read and the points are laid out quite well.

One idea I had while reading this, on the topic of shards:

While I feel that while giving one of each type tier of shard might be nice, it would probably be a bit overkill.

If we could simply convert unopened shards into a sort of shard based currency, this issue could be circumvented. For example if you had the option to either open your C5 shard, or convert it into some sort of currency that could be used exclusively to purchase other shard packs from other, this issue would be solved.

It could be a simple conversion or tweaked however, but I feel like it could be a solid solution that could be manipulated through exchange rates to find a spot that Trendy would find acceptable.

For example:
A C5 shard is worth 5 Shard Points (SP),A player could by a  C2 shard pack for 2 SP.

Alternatively if for some reason they still encourage people to play lower chaos tiers a little, a C2 pack could be bought for 4SP, and only sold for 2SP - Or something along those lines.

This could also be tweaked to allow people to buy specific shards they want for a high price.


Lastly, if they want to prevent players from buying shards above their tier they could make this shop only accessible after a completion of a map, and then only sell items from the most recent completed chaos tier.

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I would argue C5 is better then C3 now even for XP farming, simply because of the gear as a bonus and maybe even XP per hour (not tested).

I afk farm C5 over C3 so i can get perfect gear in all slots while gaining 1 lvl per 2 maps, only skipping Bastille as its to slow. C3 has some stuck rollers while C5 doesn't.

I do have to DPS rollers while on C3 I didn't due to using flamethrowers, however C5 I don't need to upgrade anything, I only place 1-3 SGT's depending on maps, 1-2 blockades per lane and spam out some flame auras (positioning matters on C5 which is a downside). Nothing needs upgrading, so in essence its almost as fast and far better XP+gear drops.


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@Radu Lykan quote:

I did read and the points are laid out quite well.

One idea I had while reading this, on the topic of shards:

While I feel that while giving one of each type tier of shard might be nice, it would probably be a bit overkill.

If we could simply convert unopened shards into a sort of shard based currency, this issue could be circumvented. For example if you had the option to either open your C5 shard, or convert it into some sort of currency that could be used exclusively to purchase other shard packs from other, this issue would be solved.

It could be a simple conversion or tweaked however, but I feel like it could be a solid solution that could be manipulated through exchange rates to find a spot that Trendy would find acceptable.

For example:
A C5 shard is worth 5 Shard Points (SP),A player could by a  C2 shard pack for 2 SP.

Alternatively if for some reason they still encourage people to play lower chaos tiers a little, a C2 pack could be bought for 4SP, and only sold for 2SP - Or something along those lines.

This could also be tweaked to allow people to buy specific shards they want for a high price.


Lastly, if they want to prevent players from buying shards above their tier they could make this shop only accessible after a completion of a map, and then only sell items from the most recent completed chaos tier.

Converting unopened shard boxes would be great, even if it was a 1 to 1 trade where a CT5 could switch with a CT3 or CT4.  And yeah - the RNG can be nasty sometimes and it can take you 50+ boxes to get that 1 in 25 shard that you really need to progress, so some way to definitely get one would be good.

There has to be a way that makes CT5 be the most rewarding difficulty for more than just gear, so anything that lets us get the better stuff while playing CT5 in similar time frames is good by me.

@Zimmermann quote:

I would argue C5 is better then C3 now even for XP farming, simply because of the gear as a bonus and maybe even XP per hour (not tested).

I afk farm C5 over C3 so i can get perfect gear in all slots while gaining 1 lvl per 2 maps, only skipping Bastille as its to slow. C3 has some stuck rollers while C5 doesn't.

I do have to DPS rollers while on C3 I didn't due to using flamethrowers, however C5 I don't need to upgrade anything, I only place 1-3 SGT's depending on maps, 1-2 blockades per lane and spam out some flame auras (positioning matters on C5 which is a downside). Nothing needs upgrading, so in essence its almost as fast and far better XP+gear drops.


It's about 10% more XP per Chaos Tier bump, so if CT5 is less than 10% slower than CT4 than you can at least get XP to balance. So possibly you and some of the other players could do it, but for we plebs with lesser gear and all it will be a while. At that point you'd have 1 definite plus (gear), 2 kind of pluses (XP + gold), 1 kind of negative (medals), and 1 definite negative (shards). So you may be at a break point, but you are probably one of the 15 players who iamsom said was over Ascension 500 and are not a normal case - no offense :)

I am not there yet for sure, and it seems more CT5 gear isn't that important as the slight upgrades won't matter much and CT6 is coming to make me replace all my CT5 gear anyway. I would like a couple of things but really more ascension + medals + specific shards would help me a lot more, but that means grinding CT3/CT4.

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when did iamisom say that? 15 over 500 seems so low, Jesus I thought maybe i was top 50 with 803.

But yes for anyone who cant farm C5 super fast i agree with everything you said, C3 is that sweat spot for XP and speed for sure.

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@Zimmermann quote:

when did iamisom say that? 15 over 500 seems so low, Jesus I thought maybe i was top 50 with 800.

But yes for anyone who cant farm C5 super fast i agree with everything you said, C3 is that sweat spot for XP and speed for sure.

That was a week or two ago. That number is 42 now. Emoji_Skeleton.png

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@iamisom quote:


@Zimmermann quote:

when did iamisom say that? 15 over 500 seems so low, Jesus I thought maybe i was top 50 with 800.

But yes for anyone who cant farm C5 super fast i agree with everything you said, C3 is that sweat spot for XP and speed for sure.

That was a week or two ago. That number is 42 now. Emoji_Skeleton.png

jesus what no life losers! :DDDD

But seriously i guess that number will sky rocket now that the wider community edges towards the 500 mark.

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god! im hitting the 450s and it stupid crazy boring.(well to be honest been bored since early 200s)  how are you guys hitting 500-1000 and just not get bored?! unless using a marco software that  lets you bot for hours on end.

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@123theman123 quote:

god! im hitting the 450s and it stupid crazy boring.(well to be honest been bored since early 200s)  how are you guys hitting 500-1000 and just not get bored?! unless using a marco software that  lets you bot for hours on end.

There was a post 2 weeks ago with a guy hitting 1000: link

Notice he is running CT3, so you can just watch videos or play another game while it AFKs. And it's faster + better shards + more medals, but yeah that is crazy boring.

I am approaching 500 and just running CT5 since 120 or so (besides campaign/incursions for daily+weekly quests), but not really too into it. I would like to hit 500 and get a couple of decent weapons for EV and Lavamancer DPS chars, but may be switching to quest only mode until next patch.

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Trendy has mentioned that people are gaining ascension WAY too fast.. so i doubt xp will increase at all

Trendy has a couple options tho..

  • Reduce XP gains easiest solution leaves people at high ascension with super high levels an added bonus for play testing ??
  • Change the XP requirements for leveling. They either adjust everyones ascension levels or just leave people at high ascension already.. i highly doubt they will change everyones ascension level tho as its a fair chunk of work and probable error prone.. (make sure you keep a record of your ascension levels guys)

Shard trading kind of needs to happen.. but then once C6/7 come out we will have new targets to aim for so that will settle a few people for a couple of weeks maybe ;)... nothing worse then trying to farm Range or Rate but its braindead AFK.. luckily i have a few undergeared friends ive been helping to gear up so i make them build stuff thats much higher then what they should be building.. kind of fun attempting to save a bad build ;).. i do it in public games once in awhile too but its not as fun..

Dailys are absolutely garbage at the moment.. do 3 maps which are probably not in the chaos list you are playing is annoying.. i loathe playing campaign wasting time to get my medals but some of the time its the only way to get them.. so yeah wasting time AFK there is just no fun at all. Dailys will be fixed once Incursions are brought back into the game atleast you can farm for specific gear maybe.. depends how they bring it back i suppose...

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@LJMjollnir quote:

Trendy has mentioned that people are gaining ascension WAY too fast.. so i doubt xp will increase at all

Trendy has a couple options tho..

  • Reduce XP gains easiest solution leaves people at high ascension with super high levels an added bonus for play testing ??
  • Change the XP requirements for leveling. They either adjust everyones ascension levels or just leave people at high ascension already.. i highly doubt they will change everyones ascension level tho as its a fair chunk of work and probable error prone.. (make sure you keep a record of your ascension levels guys)

Shard trading kind of needs to happen.. but then once C6/7 come out we will have new targets to aim for so that will settle a few people for a couple of weeks maybe ;)... nothing worse then trying to farm Range or Rate but its braindead AFK.. luckily i have a few undergeared friends ive been helping to gear up so i make them build stuff thats much higher then what they should be building.. kind of fun attempting to save a bad build ;).. i do it in public games once in awhile too but its not as fun..

Dailys are absolutely garbage at the moment.. do 3 maps which are probably not in the chaos list you are playing is annoying.. i loathe playing campaign wasting time to get my medals but some of the time its the only way to get them.. so yeah wasting time AFK there is just no fun at all. Dailys will be fixed once Incursions are brought back into the game atleast you can farm for specific gear maybe.. depends how they bring it back i suppose...


If the two new Trials follow the gear progression, that will basically double the stat points you get from gear which halves the effectiveness of the Ascension stat bonus. So I don't think Trendy should worry much about the crazy Ascension bonuses as long as we get new Trials every month or so.  They should worry that it is faster and easier to get most things on easier difficulties which is turning the game back into an AFK snoozefest.

But the shards -  it sounds like CT6/CT7 are only getting the missing shards which means they are pretty much skippable: maybe one Frosty + Vengeance + Enhanced Poison if you still need them, but nothing you will want multiple of. So the sweet ones (Defense Rate, Deadly Strikes, Power Transfer, etc) are still going to require CT3/CT4 farming unless there are hidden changes. At some point maybe those shards won't be so universally desired by making the tower specific ones as powerful, but they are now so it would be nice if they at least gave us ways to get them in CT5+. Just have them appear in multiple shard groups - I don't think anyone would complain if the CT7 group included them too.

Hope to hear something on the quests, even if they just change them into "Win X maps" so we don't have to hit Campaign/Incursions. I need the medals badly so I do them - I have been trying to save my gold for CT6+, so at least I have a good amount there for that.

I am looking forward to Incursions and the special weapons returning - hope that will be soon too!

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@geo981010 quote:
 If the two new Trials follow the gear progression, that will basically double the stat points you get from gear which halves the effectiveness of the Ascension stat bonus. So I don't think Trendy should worry much about the crazy Ascension bonuses as long as we get new Trials every month or so.  They should worry that it is faster and easier to get most things on easier difficulties which is turning the game back into an AFK snoozefest.

But the shards -  it sounds like CT6/CT7 are only getting the missing shards which means they are pretty much skippable: maybe one Frosty + Vengeance + Enhanced Poison if you still need them, but nothing you will want multiple of. So the sweet ones (Defense Rate, Deadly Strikes, Power Transfer, etc) are still going to require CT3/CT4 farming unless there are hidden changes. At some point maybe those shards won't be so universally desired by making the tower specific ones as powerful, but they are now so it would be nice if they at least gave us ways to get them in CT5+. Just have them appear in multiple shard groups - I don't think anyone would complain if the CT7 group included them too.

Hope to hear something on the quests, even if they just change them into "Win X maps" so we don't have to hit Campaign/Incursions. I need the medals badly so I do them - I have been trying to save my gold for CT6+, so at least I have a good amount there for that.

I am looking forward to Incursions and the special weapons returning - hope that will be soon too!

Enhanced Poison is supposed to be CT6/7 ? I got one from the Shard pack CH3 two days ago O_o.

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