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Tower Health Problems


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I'm going to preface this by saying that what I'm about to complain about is not me saying that everything is on fire but rather my perspective on the state of the meta and tower balance. (Which could all be a terrible as I am only progressing through C4 atm).

TL;DR - base aura charges scale with the increased damage output of higher level enemies, but dps tower hp does not. Tacking on the fourth tower stat (as a tiny tertiary)  to all tower items should fix this.

The issue I'm having is the amount of effort required to play with any kind of dps tower vs a fissure or aura. A base flamethrower has 10k hp, which in the higher chaos tiers a goblin could accidentally breathe on it and it would explode, whereas auras have basically a set number of times they can deal damage. This causes auras hp to effectively scale with their dps as you progress (monster hp goes up, tower damage goes up, and the number of times the aura deals damage to kill will stay, and I use this loosely, approximately the same.

My proposed fix for this is to add the fourth tower stat to every tower item as a "tertiary" stat with even less value than the secondaries. IE a shard with defense power, defense crit damage, and defense speed currently would have a small amount of defense health as well based on a percentage of the primary (just like the secondaries). 

This approach has one major advantage in my mind and one (hopefully) easily fixable problem. The problem is that this actually makes my complaint about auras slightly worse seeing as how the slight increase in defense health would increase their number of charges and make them even easier to build smack in the center of a lane and not really have to think about during combat phases. This can either be left as-is because wouldn't really be game breaking or possibly auras defense health scaling could be tuned down slightly. Now for the positive. Adding a minor amount of defense health to your towers requires our carelessly breathing goblin from before to at least accurately throw a wad of paper at the tower instead. Breathing damage would still have to be taken into account by way of repairing or upgrading just like auras and their charges. This would also allow you to place towers without having to completely triangulate the perfect spot for them based on things like where javelin throwers are going to stop based on LoS and wall placement or if it is going to get bombarded by the beautiful fragrance of a goblins morning breath, or possibly flatulence).

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i told them this years ago.  stats should never be damage OR health it should always be damage AND health (small amount)

you can't scale ENEMY damage without also scaling BASE health (mitigation) stats or you wind up with exactly this problem.  a game that was balanced at level 1 and balanced while leveling up quickly becomes unbalanced at max level

where you had ample time to respond to threats and could actually play the game strategically with towers out in the field, now becomes a game where you can't place towers anywhere but behind a wall because if you don't they insta-die to random ***


even DD1 didn't have this problem.  this is something they CREATED with their statting on DD2

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All possible points spent on towers and heroes should be up to the player to decide where they go. It should not be EITHER this OR that. The whole system is flawed but I ranted about that years ago, so I´m not going there again

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Yea, now that crit damage is actually worth something, most DPS towers that need defense health to survive have really dropped in the meta.  (they're not too bad with power transfer, at least, but still worse in general)

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My towers have high C4 Medallions with health as secondary stat and get destroyed by 4 or 5 Skeleton hits. You are forced to waste half a towers range to keep them far enough away not to get demolished by a few hits. You can't babysit towers when you have 2 or 3 bosses on the map at the same time. 

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The crit patch made the tower health issue even worse since the enemy HP increase almost forces you to use crit instead of DH.

I tried using my massive amount of ascension points to put at least a base layer of HP on some of the towers but the scaling on it is a giant mess. You gain more power than HP from ascension points and power scales better than DH on almost all DPS towers.

Archers are the worst offenders that barely scale even with a massive secondary DH stat.


@Little Magic Hat quote:

You need to look at your positioning if your towers are getting destroyed. None of my DPS towers run HP and they don't die.


I don't know what kind of magical placement you have but i always have something destroyed if i'm not using HP. Some random spear thrower or draken or dark mage or bomber will always randomly attack and 1 shot stuff nearby. 

Maybe if you completely outgear the content and insta kill everything its not an issue but that wont help when  C6 is released and all this stuff comes back to the surface along with every other stupid bug that insta killing solves.

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@Little Magic Hat quote:

You need to look at your positioning if your towers are getting destroyed. None of my DPS towers run HP and they don't die.

I'm not saying perfect tower positions don't exist, I'm saying that they take a lot more effort to find than just slapping down an aura.  On top of that, if something funky does happen that is out of your control an aura still just uses the same number of charges to deal with the enemies in the lane, a DPS tower MIGHT get destroyed just because an enemy bumped into it on accident.

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@Pegazul quote:
@Little Magic Hat quote:

You need to look at your positioning if your towers are getting destroyed. None of my DPS towers run HP and they don't die.

I don't know what kind of magical placement you have but i always have something destroyed if i'm not using HP. Some random spear thrower or draken or dark mage or bomber will always randomly attack and 1 shot stuff nearby. 

Maybe if you completely outgear the content and insta kill everything its not an issue but that wont help when  C6 is released and all this stuff comes back to the surface along with every other stupid bug that insta killing solves.

The only thing that should be able to kill your towers if placed properly is bombers (if "unlucky").

Over gearing prevents that from happening too. 

But if spears kill your defenses they are most likely in between your barricade and the spots the spear throwers throw from.

Most notable on curved lanes where you place for example flame throwers on the inner side and a blockade in range of your flamethrowers. This is a common thing that can lead to spear throwers trying to throw through your flamethrowers to hit your blockade. (Take into account that they might throw from a position way closer to the side of the lane if they are bumped there due to clogged lanes)

Other mobs with big cleaves can also kill your towers, but this can be solved with proper placement.

Clogged lanes can also lead to towers being hurt, most of the time its bombers that light their fuse and if they start or get bumped into a tower they explode.

I think TE has to be careful about increasing base HP too much. If they do, it will be a useless stat for most towers since it will lead to crit being too good with no real down side. Which can already be achieved on auras with very little investment into tower HP. A pet and 10 or so ascension points will make it so your auras will most likely never run out in  a single wave, or the whole map even.

This combo will let them at least take a single hit from a stray mob as well. Unless it's a bomber or boss.

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You have to put your self into the position of some one without maxed range gambit etc.

Lower range really limits your placement options.

I remember when i was progressing through C5 on littlehorn i was using full dps Flamethrowers and i tried literally every spot on the map and there where maybe 3 spots on that map that where safe and relatively valuable. The other spots would be safe sometimes even 2-3 maps in a row till something randomly would attack it and 1 shot it. Loosing a key DPS tower when your barely holding on in C5 usually means a loss if its at a bad time.

When i did archer testing after 19.5 i put them in crazy far away spots and still had random spear throwers stop in the middle of their lanes to 1 shot the archers that where nowhere near barricades or objectives. Not to mention the air bombers.

When you outgear the content you can place towers in sub optimal spots where the DPS is lower but its much safer. You don't have that luxury when your barely scraping by trying to progress. The whole strategy layer falls apart when you have a maze and want to place a 360 degree tower at a U turn but it gets 1 shot every time. That's counter intuitive of normal TDs.

The only reason it happens is because the AI is bugged. Trendy said that flamethrowers should be super low agro and shouldn't be directly attacked, yet bored range mobs attack them all the time.(not accidentally but directly targeting them)

I even did some testing with stun volcanos. When i added a stun volcano to my build the rate of attacks on random towers significantly increased because the AI would go crazy from the stun or being stuck behind a stunned mob and attack random ***. 

Suggestions:

I think the AI needs a look. Maybe increase the grace period of stuck mobs by several seconds before they randomly destroy everything near them.

Increase the HP scaling of the ascension points and the towers them selves. Flamethrower HP scaling is acceptable but still quite bad compared to power scaling.

You could also consider making it impossible to build towers inside lanes (only traps blockades) and making them untargetable by ground mobs.


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@Radu Lykan quote:

You could always stack some ascension points into tower HP if you can't find safe placements.

This was the thing that I loved most about ascension... Because to some degree it FINALLY let us get all stats again. But Trendy being Trendy still balanced it weird...

DCrit scales harder than DPower, and gets more points per level, with relatively no competition for points in the long scale (range+crit chance have "low" caps).

DHP gets LESS points per level than damage, while already competing for points against the MAIN stat for a tower (or at least what should be), so it's really just a bad investment in the end for towers....

I wonder how it'd go if we had a shard that was the reverse of vampiric empowerment? (DP becomes DH)

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Maybe orbs could get adjusted to have equal points in all attributes instead. It already is weird as the primary stat peaks at 6k instead of 8k, and is hitting the cap and wasting points anyway. Just make it give 5k stats for all 4 groups (ie the same stat points a medallion would give total), and you can have a nicely balanced tower instead that won't hit caps for another couple of Trials gear upgrades.

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