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Murdash

New patch and single-target towers

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So I've read the details of the patch, and I'd like to ask you some questions. Which chaos tier are you making updates for? From these details, it seems to me that you are basicly nerfing aoe towers in hope that people will use single target towers instead of them. Now this is not good at all imo, but it could work. On chaos 1.


Let me paint a scenario, you are in chaos 5, and 20 mobs are coming in one lane at one time. Each of them has ~800k average hp. Thanks to the strict limitations, we only have like 180 points /lane. -60 goes for the walls, we have 120 left for towers, so in the end we have 2 barricades and 4 cannonball towers.

The enemies have 20x800k=16mill hp. 

We have 4 dps towers, so each of them has to deal 4 mill dmg.

In c4-c5 gear, you have like 70k dps tops on cannonballs, so it'd take nearly a minute for them to deal that much damage, while the other waves would arrive, flooding the barricades to oblivion.


(most likely they would just focus on berserkers with 2mill hp, which leads to an army stomping on the barricades -- even faster loss)


My question is, can you really buff them well enough to make them viable? Because from the details it seems to me that you are simply nerfing the only viable source of tower dps so that we would use an unviable source instead. That may work in chaos 1 where the mobs are maybe easier and you have a chance to win by building with faceroll, but these towers won't stand a chance in higher difficulties until you make them like 10 times stronger. Just no way. If you know where I'm wrong please tell me, because to me this obviously looks like nerf patch 3.0.



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Last I checked single target towers are even now still viable, have defenses to clear all the trash mobs, single target towers further on to oneshot beserker orcs and deal with bosses. All depends on how you build.

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@Exo dus quote:

Last I checked single target towers are even now still viable, have defenses to clear all the trash mobs, single target towers further on to oneshot beserker orcs and deal with bosses. All depends on how you build.

Tell me a chaos 5 viable combo with chaos 4 gear that doesn't require crazy high ascension then. Afaik only aoe towers are viable, and even with them, it's super hard to progress. I'm not talking about clearing chaos 5 with full chaos 5 gear and sky high ascension. I'm talking about progressing in game.

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@Murdash quote:


@Exo dus quote:

Last I checked single target towers are even now still viable, have defenses to clear all the trash mobs, single target towers further on to oneshot beserker orcs and deal with bosses. All depends on how you build.

Tell me a chaos 5 viable combo with chaos 4 gear that doesn't require crazy high ascension then. Afaik only aoe towers are viable, and even with them, it's super hard to progress. I'm not talking about clearing chaos 5 with full chaos 5 gear and sky high ascension. I'm talking about progressing in game.

How about ramsters near spawn and LSA near wall, or flames instead of ramsters, or any aoe tower way before the LSA and wall then the minorty that get past will wait in queue to get hit by the single target tower.

Don't forget you can add cc somewhere in as well.


@Murdash quote:

but it could work. On chaos 1.


Isn't Chaos 1 with campaign gear suppose to be as hard as c5 with c4 gear?

You should just try some of these things before the update, and as in every scenario your hero dps helps a lot. no point trying it but trying to afk it, testing it.

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dont complain until you have anything to complain about, :). they are changing a lot of things regarding balance so its not possible say what will actually look like, wait and see, and if neccessary then complain :)

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@BorchTrzyKawki quote:

dont complain until you have anything to complain about, :). they are changing a lot of things regarding balance so its not possible say what will actually look like, wait and see, and if neccessary then complain :)


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@Exo dus quote:


@BorchTrzyKawki quote:

dont complain until you have anything to complain about, :). they are changing a lot of things regarding balance so its not possible say what will actually look like, wait and see, and if neccessary then complain :)



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I believe most AOE towers are getting a buff?  They currently target 8, and new limit would be 10

Which ones target infinite amount, besides flamethrower?  

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@Pachipachio quote:

I believe most AOE towers are getting a buff?  They currently target 8, and new limit would be 10

Which ones target infinite amount, besides flamethrower?  

Sandtraps for sure was over 8, and were pretty OP because of it. Ramsters, obelisk and maybe the EV ones too?

I am hoping the ramster direct command doesn't have the 10 unit limit - that should count as a player attack and I don't think those were affected.

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I see the main problem with single target towers as; they simply do not have a role in the current lane design. 
  • Massive waves need AOE to counter.
  • Single bosses need heroes to counter.
  • Single target towers are useful for???

How to fix it? 

One idea I had would be to add AOE shards to single target towers. This may however tip the balance to single target towers being the best towers in the game, so their AOE would have to be continuously monitored.

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they didnt nerf aoe towers too much they just balanced them

I watched the stream and it doesnt sound so bad

also cannons with heavy cannonball shard is viable in c5 already watch juicebags videos 

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@kingoftime2013 quote:

they didnt nerf aoe towers too much they just balanced them

I watched the stream and it doesnt sound so bad

also cannons with heavy cannonball shard is viable in c5 already watch juicebags videos 

I may be wrong on this one, but i guess he had sky high ascension on that one. Like the guy with 500 ascension showed it in the forums, you can even solo chaos 5 without baricades if your ascension is high enough, so I don't think it matters.


@Zimmermann quote:

I see the main problem with single target towers as; they simply do not have a role in the current lane design. 

  • Massive waves need AOE to counter.
  • Single bosses need heroes to counter.
  • Single target towers are useful for???

How to fix it? 

One idea I had would be to add AOE shards to single target towers. This may however tip the balance to single target towers being the best towers in the game, so their AOE would have to be continuously monitored.

Someone who gets it at last, single would be only good against bosses, but that's what heroes are for. And yes, it worked fine while we had explosion on pdts, and serenity aura with bonus explosion on single target kill, but since both of these have been nerfed to the ground, single target towers don't really have aoe possibilities now.

RIP serenity :(

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@kingoftime2013 quote:

they didnt nerf aoe towers too much they just balanced them

I watched the stream and it doesnt sound so bad

that completely depends on the tower. Take all ground defenses, the only usable ones are those with large "proc" range or aura based ticking damage in a large range.

If that range gets reduced just a small amount they will no longer be able to be placed out of lanes, this is there "critical mass" so to speak, anything under X range they are trash, once over X range they are usable.

If the nerf is just small, but takes them below that "magic point" X, they are trash. This is why explosive traps are trash, because there proc range is so small.

But we will see, there is no point getting to upset before we know whats to come :)

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@Zimmermann quote:


@kingoftime2013 quote:

they didnt nerf aoe towers too much they just balanced them

I watched the stream and it doesnt sound so bad

that completely depends on the tower. Take all ground defenses, the only usable ones are those with large "proc" range or aura based ticking damage in a large range.

If that range gets reduced just a small amount they will no longer be able to be placed out of lanes, this is there "critical mass" so to speak, anything under X range they are trash, once over X range they are usable.

If the nerf is just small, but takes them below that "magic point" X, they are trash. This is why explosive traps are trash, because there proc range is so small.

But we will see, there is no point getting to upset before we know whats to come :)

I guess some defences are not supposed to be used in some chaos tiers 

on the tiers without the emp orcs ground def should be good I guess

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@Murdash quote:


@kingoftime2013 quote:

they didnt nerf aoe towers too much they just balanced them

I watched the stream and it doesnt sound so bad

also cannons with heavy cannonball shard is viable in c5 already watch juicebags videos 

I may be wrong on this one, but i guess he had sky high ascension on that one. Like the guy with 500 ascension showed it in the forums, you can even solo chaos 5 without baricades if your ascension is high enough, so I don't think it matters.

nah I tried heavy cannonballs like under ascention 200 and they were good if you could find spots to make good use of their range

the reason I dont use them right now is because there are some geodes on c5 and my heavy cannonballs roll to my core and destroys it xD

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@kingoftime2013 quote:

I guess some defences are not supposed to be used in some chaos tiers 

on the tiers without the emp orcs ground def should be good I guess

Yep thats exactly why they seem to be doing it.

What i find so odd is; no one is using ground defenses in C5 except for a tiny minority of players who want a challenge and those abusing Fissures with bugged range, a bug that stops EMP from working against them and a bug/odd design choice where you can stack fissures.

So in short, they nerf flamethrower range, pdt range which I understand but lump Flame auras, fissures etc into that which do not need a nerf at all... fissures just need 3 major bug fixes. 

But anyway what do i know im not a developer^^

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@geo981010 quote:

Sandtraps for sure was over 8, and were pretty OP because of it. Ramsters, obelisk and maybe the EV ones too?

I am hoping the ramster direct command doesn't have the 10 unit limit - that should count as a player attack and I don't think those were affected.

Good point on the sand trap, I use them all the time and it didn't click for me that obviously they have inf. targetting lol

Booted up the game to double-check ramster and it hits at least 11 targets (dummies)

balloon has 8 cap (dummies)

I know from zim that auras have 8 cap 

and from my own playing that fissures have an 8 cap

can't easily test proton w/o playing with them - same with other huntress traps.  But w/e

Seems fair that flamethrower/ramster are indirectly getting nerfed (and I doubt anyone will argue sand traps getting the 10 target cap) while the other defenses getting a nice 25% boost in max targets


@Zimmermann quote:

I see the main problem with single target towers as; they simply do not have a role in the current lane design. 

  • Massive waves need AOE to counter.
  • Single bosses need heroes to counter.
  • Single target towers are useful for???

How to fix it? 

One idea I had would be to add AOE shards to single target towers. This may however tip the balance to single target towers being the best towers in the game, so their AOE would have to be continuously monitored.

Current lane design can support single target towers in "the best" builds, imo.  They'd be for witherbeasts, lady orcs, and the big orcs/ogres

Don't need -that- much AOE to counter the handfuls of little goblins/skeletons that can gum up single target towers.  It's just that, currently, a flamethrower has a bit more dps than a cannon, and can hit everything in its path 


With enough balance passes to hp of monsters and tower stats I can see us having to build with the idea of balancing AoE damage and single target damage w/o changing the lane design (by which I think you mean monster schedules, ya?)

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@Zimmermann quote:


@kingoftime2013 quote:

I guess some defences are not supposed to be used in some chaos tiers 

on the tiers without the emp orcs ground def should be good I guess

Yep thats exactly why they seem to be doing it.

What i find so odd is; no one is using ground defenses in C5 except for a tiny minority of players who want a challenge and those abusing Fissures with bugged range, a bug that stops EMP from working against them and a bug/odd design choice where you can stack fissures.

So in short, they nerf flamethrower range, pdt range which I understand but lump Flame auras, fissures etc into that which do not need a nerf at all... fissures just need 3 major bug fixes. 

But anyway what do i know im not a developer^^

I I didnt try flame auras but fissure range when maxed is huge, makes sense to nerf it :P

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@kingoftime2013 quote:

I I didnt try flame auras but fissure range when maxed is huge, makes sense to nerf it :P

yes like I said its either bugged or completely out of wack with other ground defenses.

A maxed fissure gambit 50/50 with no range shard is 2000, while a maxed out 50/50 flame aura with a range shard is 1680. Fissures need a huge range nerf just to be in line with Flame auras let alone this additional nerf they plan for all 8 target towers.

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@Zimmermann quote:

I see the main problem with single target towers as; they simply do not have a role in the current lane design. 

  • Massive waves need AOE to counter.
  • Single bosses need heroes to counter.
  • Single target towers are useful for???

How to fix it? 

One idea I had would be to add AOE shards to single target towers. This may however tip the balance to single target towers being the best towers in the game, so their AOE would have to be continuously monitored.

Another way to fix this would be to add resistances (not immunities), but use it intermingled with the wave.  Like a wave would have a bunch of little mobs that would eat up shots from cannon towers if you didn't have aoe towers to deal with them, then you'd have the big armored fire resistant guys that also comes out of the same lane that something like a cannon tower would deal better damage to. 

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Honestly, I believe putting a cap one AOE targets is bad by design, as AOE towers will lose their relative effectiveness as increasing difficulties will result in more swamping. Also, The range shard used to increase Flamethrowers' max targets because of the larger AOE. Now I will have to remove the range shard since that "less damage, but more targets"-principle is completely gone, and I'd be gimping myself by not switching to a damage shard.


Instead, focus more on balancing the difficulties right, so having more than 2 flamers per lane will be a waste. After all, 2 flamethrowers will kill all trash, the ones who do survive will be Orcs/Lady orcs/Ogres/Other major mobs that come alone or nearly alone. By the time the Flamethrowers have thinned out their ranks, single target towers like the cannonball tower are a much better pick, as they dish out more damage at less DU. On top of that, these can actually target air mobs, unlike AOE towers. 


At the very least, maximum number of targets should be linked to the range of the tower. EG: Have the ranged shard increase maximum number of targets by 40% as well.


One could also give Orcs and any other mob above that, a low AOE resistance to accentuate this.

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@Murdash quote:


@Exo dus quote:

Last I checked single target towers are even now still viable, have defenses to clear all the trash mobs, single target towers further on to oneshot beserker orcs and deal with bosses. All depends on how you build.

Tell me a chaos 5 viable combo with chaos 4 gear that doesn't require crazy high ascension then. Afaik only aoe towers are viable, and even with them, it's super hard to progress. I'm not talking about clearing chaos 5 with full chaos 5 gear and sky high ascension. I'm talking about progressing in game.

I've been running C5 reliably for a while now using a C4 medallion on my flamethrower, just because I haven't had any purple+ damage/speed/health medallions drop in C5 yet >_<

My build is 1 flame, 1 sand trap, 1 lightning aura and 1 wall per lane, plus a couple skyguards as needed. The sand holds the swarms, flames kill the smaller enemies, then lightning zaps and beefy enemies who get through.

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@Zimmermann quote:


@kingoftime2013 quote:

I I didnt try flame auras but fissure range when maxed is huge, makes sense to nerf it :P

yes like I said its either bugged or completely out of wack with other ground defenses.

A maxed fissure gambit 50/50 with no range shard is 2000, while a maxed out 50/50 flame aura with a range shard is 1680. Fissures need a huge range nerf just to be in line with Flame auras let alone this additional nerf they plan for all 8 target towers.

if the flame auras are already small range compared to single target def id assume trendy will leave it like that and just nerf other towers like fissures to have the same range

it doesnt makes sense to nerf both of them the same and keep the fissure way longer range than auras

we will see

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@Zimmermann quote:

I see the main problem with single target towers as; they simply do not have a role in the current lane design. 

  • Massive waves need AOE to counter.
  • Single bosses need heroes to counter.
  • Single target towers are useful for???

How to fix it? 

One idea I had would be to add AOE shards to single target towers. This may however tip the balance to single target towers being the best towers in the game, so their AOE would have to be continuously monitored.

Forgive me for the DD1 comparison (that I keep making...), but honestly this is a team working with all the design knowledge learned from solving these same problems in the previous game, and it baffles me that there are so many steps being taken backwards. >_>


DD1 had a grand total of 4 (maybe 5? I can't remember if Mages actually attacked, or only healed. And I suppose maybe the Summoner's melee units, but I'm pretty sure they cleaved, and they were used more as walls anyway.) single target defenses. Magic Missile Towers, Deadly Striker Towers, Archers, and that one Huntress trap I can't remember the name of. ALL OF THEM WERE USED! Granted, some (Deadly Strikers and Archers) more than others, but it actually wasn't too out there to think of a plan that used every single defense in the game, depending on the layout of the map in question.


I just can't understand why they've gone from that to "You're allowed ~20 defenses on this 5-lane map. Total. If you use the cheap ones." with the extremely restrictive DU limits and outright stating that these towers? Yeah, we've intentionally make them worthless on these specific maps (Chaos tiers).

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