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Patch 19.5 Preview


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Patch 19.5 comes out next week on PC & PS4! This patch contains changes to Shard drops, balance, UI and more. If you missed the Devstream, you can watch the Twitch archived video. (The YouTube version will be available this weekend.)

Over the past month, we’ve been working on improvements to the Trials update based on your feedback. We sent out a survey last week about Shards and the Trials playlist, and beginning with Patch 19.5 we’d like to start introducing most of those ideas into the game. The full Patch 19.5 Notes will be available when the patch comes out, but below is an overview of the changes coming:


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Shard Drop Changes

From the survey results, we learned that most players were satisfied with the concept of Shards but not with their current implementation. In fact, Shard drops were the biggest point of dissatisfaction in the entire update. The main areas of concern were the time it takes to get the Shard you’re looking for and frustration over the confusing setup of Shard Packs (which is what we call the containers you get from Victory Chests).

These are the areas we’ve focused on in Patch 19.5:


Improving Shard Target Farming

Right now, Shard Packs do not drop unique Shards per pack. There’s a lot of overlap between different Shard Packs, which means players can get a Standard Shard from a Chaos III Shard Pack, and players don’t understand where they need to farm in order to get the Shard they’re looking for (say, the coveted Defense Range Shard, which can actually drop from multiple Chaos Shard Packs).

In Patch 19.5, each Shard Pack will have unique Shards. For example, Shards A, B and C can only be found in Chaos I Shard Packs, while Shards D, E and F can only be found in Chaos III Shard Packs. This also means that Standard Shards will no longer drop from Chaos Shard Packs! Along with this, each victory in Trials will guarantee at least 1 Chaos Shard Pack from that given difficulty. For example, when you beat Chaos II Trials, you will be guaranteed a Chaos II Shard Pack.

With these changes, you’ll be able to specifically target the Shards you want. Once this update goes live, we’ll share the complete Shard drop locations on our Wiki and to those players who are making amazing webtools (like Czokalapik’s DD2Tools).


Improving Shard Farming Time

Right now, Shard Packs have a chance to give you 1 Shard from a pool of up to 120(!) different Shards. In the patch, we’re reducing the Shard pool per pack from ~120 to somewhere between 25-35 Shards depending on the pack, which will increase the chances of getting the Shard you want when you open a pack.

We’re also changing the drop rates and drop setup on Shard Packs in Victory Chests. Instead of having a chance to drop between 1-3 Shard Packs, Victory Chests will now drop 2 Shard Packs guaranteed every time. When you win, you’ll receive one Shard Pack from that difficulty and one Shard Pack from any previous difficulty (for example, if you beat Chaos III Trials, you’ll receive 1 Chaos III Shard Pack and 1 Chaos II, Chaos I or Standard Shard Pack).

We’re trying to get the first pass on the Trials consecutive win bonus into this patch, which gives bonus rewards for winning consecutive random maps in Trials. This first pass would add a Shard bonus. Once you win 3 times in a row, you’ll earn an extra Shard Pack on every victory after that for as long as the streak continues. This extra Shard Pack would be a guaranteed Shard Pack from that difficulty. That means once you activate the win bonus, you’ll get 3 Shards guaranteed (2 Shard Packs of that difficulty, 1 Shard Pack from previous difficulties) until the streak is broken. If the Trials win streak doesn’t go into Patch 19.5, it will be available in a patch soon thereafter.

By making Shard Packs drop unique Shards, increasing drop chances within a pack, guaranteeing Shard Packs per difficulty, giving you at least 2 Shard Packs guaranteed on every victory and adding a Shard bonus for consecutive wins, it’ll be much faster to get the Shards you want.


Sort Shards By Name

Another pain point brought up in the survey was the frustration of trying to find the Shard you want within your Inventory. A popular suggestion (both in the survey and in the community) was a Shard filter that sorts Shards alphabetically by name, and we were able to get it in for this patch! You can find the “Name” filter in the All Bags -> Shards section. We’re investigating more Shard filtering options and possible Shard icon improvements for future updates.


Hero Management UI Changes

These were discussed in a previous blog, and they’re coming in Patch 19.5! Something we’ve heard from players with a high number of heroes is that it’s difficult to navigate to certain heroes in the new Hero Management UI. We’re adding a Quick Select option that allows you to see a large number of heroes at one time and then go to that hero in the UI. We're also allowing you to select the other cards in the Rolodex view without having to click the darn arrows. This isn’t the end of our Hero Management UI improvements. More changes coming in future patches.


Bag Quick Scrolling

On the PC version, we’ve added hotkeys that will cycle left and right through your bags! This should make moving items from one bag to another much faster, especially for those of you who don’t have a Middle Mouse Wheel.


Return to Tavern No Longer Forces Everyone Back to Tavern

If one person selects Return to Tavern, that person will leave. Not you. You will Continue, baby. And you’ll keep Continuing as long as you want to Continue.


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Defense Balance Changes

With this patch, we’ve taken a serious look at the viability of all defenses as well as how several of our specific defense stats scale, and we made some fundamental changes as a result.

Below is a deep-dive into how we approached balance for this patch and how we hope these changes will make many defenses, at least when it comes to raw DPS and utility, viable in later Chaos difficulties.


Defense Speed and Defense Power

One of the biggest changes has been a complete overhaul of the Defense Speed formula. Previously, some defenses would benefit very heavily from Defense Speed, while others would hardly benefit at all. Some defenses had very restrictive rate caps, while others had very flexible rate caps, and that made it difficult to balance these defenses as item stats progress into Chaos 5 (and soon, Chaos 6 and beyond…).

So, we took a step back and rebalanced all Defense Speed scalars and rate caps across all defenses. Defenses scale consistently with Defense Speed now, such that +100 Defense Speed gives the same % DPS benefit to each tower. We also fixed a number of defenses that had hidden cooldowns that prevented their Defense Speed from correctly affecting their Attack Rate. There are still a few exceptions (Slime Pit still needs more work before it benefits from Defense Speed), but nearly every defense now benefits from it in an obvious way.

As to Attack Rate caps, we adjusted those to more consistent levels. Most raw ‘damage’ defenses (like the Flamethrower) can go up to 400% faster than their starting attack rate, while more ‘utility’ defenses (like the Geyser Trap) can go up to 200% faster.

We also looked at various utility effects, especially stuns and other forms of hard crowd-control. Those effects become more potent as the attack rate gets faster, so we made adjustments to the duration of many of these effects. We have a rough target ‘uptime’ that we try to maintain, and as such, most of these utility defenses saw balance updates to prevent them from reaching ‘infinite stunlock’ situations at higher firing rates. In addition, we also updated many of the Shards that add utility effects (especially stun procs) to ensure those also don’t develop into ‘infinite stunlock’ situations as Defense Speed increases.

Is this a buff or a nerf? It varies. Some defenses, like the Earthshatter Tower, were receiving very little benefit from Defense Speed, and this change results in substantial improvements. Others, like the Flamethrower Tower, were benefitting heavily from Defense Speed and will see no benefit.

But fear not! Across-the-board, we made increases to the Defense Power ratios of nearly every defense! Every non-blockade is now much deadlier to the foes of Etheria, especially in earlier difficulties, thanks to the increase in raw damage numbers. This increase is intended to help offset the loss of Attack Rate on some defenses, but you will definitely see some defenses (like the Cannonball Tower) once again strike fear into the hearts of Etheria’s enemies.

Also, we modified the base attack rate of some defenses (Lightning Strikes Aura, we’re looking at you) to try and reduce the amount of ‘overkill’ damage these defenses were inflicting on weaker enemies. Many single-target towers are much stronger in this update, and we hope you’ll try them out again! (To note:  We’ve discussed other changes to single-target towers to make them more appealing, and we’ll continue to keep an eye on the community’s tower usage data and feedback for more improvements.)


Defense Crit Chance and Crit Damage

Defense Crit Chance and Damage had similar scaling issues to Defense Speed. Both stats were very underutilized in earlier difficulties, making it hard for new players to appreciate the stat. Making things worse, we discovered several bugs with Defense Crit Chance where specific Shards and Ascension Powers allowed you to exceed the Crit Chance maximum, creating random inconsistencies where some heroes could have higher Crit Chances than others.

We’ve fixed all those bugs (we hope!) and also set new baselines. All defenses now have an innate Crit Chance of 10%, up from the old 3%, to make the Crit Damage stat more valuable early in the game. In addition, we increased the Crit Chance max to 33% on all defenses and fixed the bugs that were allowing various defenses to bypass the maximum.

Defense Crit Damage was re-standardized across all defenses to make it a much more valuable stat, rivaling that of Defense Power once your Crit Chance gets close to the max. In general, you should see much more value in the Crit Chance and Crit Damage stat on Defenses, as pretty much every defense receives much better benefits from the stat.


Defense Tier Upgrades

Yet one more major defense change is the complete rebalance of how defenses progress as they receive tier upgrades in-game.

Some defenses scaled very poorly at later tiers, namely low-cost defenses like the Explosive Trap. Others gained massive benefits from each upgrade like the Earthshatter Tower.

We’ve redone every tier upgrade to provide larger benefits for low-cost defenses and less benefits for higher-cost defenses. As a general rule, higher-cost defenses still perform more efficiently at Tier 5 than lower-cost defenses, but with this rebalance, the gap is much, much, much smaller.

Fans of Explosive Traps, Oil Geysers, and other low-cost defenses rejoice, as you can now upgrade these defenses without fear of them becoming grossly inefficient by Tier 3+!


Max Target Changes

Some defenses were limited in the number of targets they could affect, with the cap being 8 (some exceptions). Other defenses could affect an unlimited number of targets, and there was not a lot of rhyme or reason as to which defenses had caps and which did not.

As of this patch, all defenses have a max targets of 10. Defenses that used to have a max of 8 targets have been increased to 10, and defenses that had no cap are now capped at 10.

To note, these caps exist to try and make the balance between fixed-target defenses and many-target defenses somewhat plausible. We’ll keep an eye on it moving forward and make adjustments as the relative balance between these subtypes dictates.


Range Gambit Ascension Powers

Not to sound like a broken record, but Defense Range had scaling issues as well, most notably with the inconsistencies between how the Range Gambits would affect different defenses. The Skeletal Ramster notoriously had almost no benefit from this Power, while Explosive Trap could alter the face of Etheria at maximum values.

And once again, we went back and re-standardized how defenses are affected by Defense Range. We broke this down into roughly two categories:

Fixed-Target defenses, meaning those that generally hit a set, small number of targets, will get large benefits from Range Gambits. This includes the Cannonball Tower, Hornet’s Nest, and others. As the range benefit to these towers generally doesn’t really let them clear a wave that much faster, they receive more benefit from Range Gambits.

Many-Target defenses, meaning those that generally can hit 5+ targets, will get much smaller benefits from Range Gambits. This includes defenses like Flame Aura, Skeletal Ramster, and others. (That said, the Ramster will get more Defense Range from the Gambit in this patch than it currently does.) As each range increase on these towers makes it more likely they’ll hit additional targets, these defenses receive less benefit than Fixed-Target towers from Range Gambits.

This is something new that we’re testing out for the first time, and we’ll continue to adjust the Gambits as we go along. This change does NOT affect the Defense Range shard Deadly Strikes, as we’ve left that at a flat % increase for now.


Enemy Levels and Stats

With all these defense buffs, we had to make a few tweaks to the levels of enemies to ensure they didn’t get blown out of the water. The level of all enemies, in all difficulties, across both the Campaign and Chaos difficulties has increased. But fear not, as your mightier defenses will make quick work of these slightly-tougher enemies! The net effect is that balance has taken a slight shift towards defenses, away from heroes.

To note, we paid special attention to enemies that are generally immune / unaffected by defenses and have altered their stats accordingly. Pests like Witherbeasts, Dark Mages and Siege Rollers, which are very difficulty to kill with defenses, have had their stats re-weighted to ensure they can still be slain by hero focus-fire in a very timely fashion.


Chaos 1 Enemy Level Reduction

In combination with the above changes, we’ve reduced the Chaos 1 enemy level by 10%. The result of this along with our defense balance changes should result in smoother entry into Chaos 1. We’ll continue to monitor both player feedback and our internal data to see how players are progressing into Chaos 1.


Mana Regen Updates

We wanted the base 4 heroes to have a little more ability uptime to closer match some of the heroes like Gunwitch. As a result, we’ve increased the base mana regeneration of our core 4 heroes from 2 MP/s to 3 MP/s. This should have a big impact on Campaign (50% more mana!), and this should give roughly about 20% more mana alongside the Channel Shard.

But we must also mention we had to make substantial changes to the Power of Storms Shard. Sadly, the Shard was bugged -- it was giving some heroes nearly infinite ability mana, which was not the goal for the Shard! We’ve reworked this Shard, and it now provides a large burst of mana every 10-12 seconds, but it no longer feeds the hero a nearly bottomless stream of ability mana. The Shard’s description has been overhauled, so the actual impact/effect is clearly stated, and players can work out if they’ll benefit more from Channel or Power of Storms in their build.


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Stuck Special Enemy Fixes

One of the biggest bugs we wanted to fix was the Stuck Special Enemy bug where Siege Rollers and other Special Enemies were getting stuck in their spawners. Our world builders have gone through the maps reported to us and changed geometry within the spawners that were causing trouble. So far things are looking good, but if you see a stuck Special Enemy after this patch, please report it to our bug site!


New Weekend Event Support

This patch includes the ability to do Weekend Gold and Weekend XP events! Perhaps you’ll see them soon...


And More Bug Fixes

Which includes Shard fixes (hello, Frosty Bind), defense bug fixes and more.


Full patch notes will be available when the patch comes out!

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@123theman123 quote:

i love the changes. i hope they fix a lot of the game breaking bugs like the lava buff

This one didn't make it in the patch, but we'll try to get this into our next patch.

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@Immortal-D quote:

Am I going insane, or are there 2 different versions of this thread?

You're not insane. I posted this in General Discussion for extra visibility gobu.

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@iamisom quote:


@Immortal-D quote:

Am I going insane, or are there 2 different versions of this thread?

You're not insane. I posted this in General Discussion for extra visibility gobu.

Oh sweet Harbringer.  If Trendy starts talking like a certain masked Huntress we all know and love, I will literally explode.  Also, not thrilled that FT/Ramster have immunity to Vanguard/Geode :(  Maybe consider a damage resistance to compensate?

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[[4370,users]]

I guess you cant releasing range gambit scaling before the patch launch?

I am very fearful for the utility of flame auras in C5. Out ranging EMP's was crucial, it looks like you are heavily nerfing range gambits for AOE towers.

Damage on flame auras was never great, but if they are switched off 70% of the time, the buffs wont matter :(

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@Zimmermann quote:

iamisom

I guess you cant releasing range gambit scaling before the patch launch?

I am very fearful for the utility of flame auras in C5. Out ranging EMP's was crucial, it looks like you are heavily nerfing range gambits for AOE towers.

Damage on flame auras was never great, but if they are switched off 70% of the time, the buffs wont matter :(

I won't have the specifics to share until the patch notes, but this is great feedback, and I hope you'll make a thread about your discoveries post-patch release. 

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Someone please tell me I got It wrong, Auras, flamethrowers a-like defenses and traps are getting nerfed for been AOE while cannonballs are getting buffed because they are single target? 

That's really bad, Its already hard to use ground defenses because of cyborgs, flamethrowers because they have to be near the lane so they take a lot of damage, with this changes ranged towers are only getting stronger, which is the completely opposite of what I was expecting, considering cannonballs and pdts are already are the meta.

Hopefully the speed and critic changes compensate the range loss, because otherwise the meta doesn't really change with this "balance", but my hopes are small.apprentice_small.png

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@iamisom quote:

Improving Shard Farming Time

Right now, Shard Packs have a chance to give you 1 Shard from a pool of up to 120(!) different Shards. In the patch, we’re reducing the Shard pool per pack from ~120 to somewhere between 25-35 Shards depending on the pack, which will increase the chances of getting the Shard you want when you open a pack.

We’re also changing the drop rates and drop setup on Shard Packs in Victory Chests. Instead of having a chance to drop between 1-3 Shard Packs, Victory Chests will now drop 2 Shard Packs guaranteed every time. When you win, you’ll receive one Shard Pack from that difficulty and one Shard Pack from any previous difficulty (for example, if you beat Chaos III Trials, you’ll receive 1 Chaos III Shard Pack and 1 Chaos II, Chaos I or Standard Shard Pack).

We’re trying to get the first pass on the Trials consecutive win bonus into this patch, which gives bonus rewards for winning consecutive random maps in Trials. This first pass would add a Shard bonus. Once you win 3 times in a row, you’ll earn an extra Shard Pack on every victory after that for as long as the streak continues. This extra Shard Pack would be a guaranteed Shard Pack from that difficulty. That means once you activate the win bonus, you’ll get 3 Shards guaranteed (2 Shard Packs of that difficulty, 1 Shard Pack from previous difficulties) until the streak is broken. If the Trials win streak doesn’t go into Patch 19.5, it will be available in a patch soon thereafter.

By making Shard Packs drop unique Shards, increasing drop chances within a pack, guaranteeing Shard Packs per difficulty, giving you at least 2 Shard Packs guaranteed on every victory and adding a Shard bonus for consecutive wins, it’ll be much faster to get the Shards you want.

Missed it by that much.

Okay, first the good.  Making packs limited to a tier - fantastic.  This lets defenders target shards they want.  The rest of it?  Oh boy.

First off, this is a reduction in the number of shard packs that drop.  Right now we get 2-3 packs.  One of the standard packs, or campaign shards, and 1-2 of that tier.  Now admittedly those tier packs can have standard shards or anything at random so they often times weren't better than the one standard pack.  However, after the patch we will get two.  Just two.  For an even bigger bonus, one of those two will be a pack from lower tier.

This boggles my mind.  On the one had they are improving the odds of getting a specific shard in a pack WHICH IS GOOD, but they are cutting down on total packs AND maintaining the old pack drop from chests.  My question is who does this benefit?

Not new players.  They will have to grind chaos levels to get gear, which means if a chaos level only dropped shard packs from that tier they would most likely get all they need by the time they assemble the armor and relics needed to progress (or maybe even 2-3 of each shard as they grind out the money/medals assuming they are truly new).  Getting more standard shards and the like won't really help them as the gearing system is very anti carry (got a friend that will carry you through c5?  doesn't matter, c1 level stuff will drop if that's what you have equipped).

It doesn't really help max level people either.  Hang on a bit, gonna get into some math.  Let's say we have a maxed out defender.  Can afk through c5 like it's not a thing.  Now she/he wants a lower tier shard.  So they beat a c5 map and loot the chest.  First off the lower level pack can be standard, c1, c2, c3, or c4.  So right off the bat, there is only a 20% chance they will get the tier they want, or conversely 80% a pack they don't want/need (and this will get worse over time as they add more chaos levels and thus dilute the pool further).  Now let's be kind and say the pack they want only has 25 options in it.  That means when you open the pack you have a 4% chance of getting the shard you want (that's 2.85% for a 35 shard pack for the curious).  So here is where it gets silly.  You have a 20% chance at a 4% chance.  Which is to say when you win a c5 map, you have a 0.8% chance of the pack you need and then the shard you want (or 0.57% for the 35 shard packs).

Meanwhile, if they tiers only dropped their tier and nothing else, you could get 2 rolls of 2.85-4% which is immensely better than half a percent.

Maybe the system is to discourage the complaining from people farming lower level chaos to get shards.  However, mathematically that argument makes no sense.  The odds of getting what you want is so much greater if each of the tiers didn't drop old tiers.

All I can assume is it is some sort of effort to slow progression.  For some reason giving people a couple pulls on the one armed bandit of a chaos tier is too much.  And adding one more shard drop after three wins isn't a bonus, it's taking that random shard we get now and turning it into a carrot for the Skinner box.


Let me put it to you like this, not as a player but as a game system:

You have leveled up in any mmo.  You attempt the first dungeon and fail, but get some gear.  You slowly get stronger and beat the dungeon - which gives you a bit of currency useful for your level of progression, and potion that heals a tenth of your health because it is set for a level a quarter of yours.  You shrug it off and move to the next tier of content.  It is more challenging and requires better gear to complete.  So you farm that first level and get a few dozens of the low level healing potion as you farm to progress.   Eventually, you muscle through and win the day.  Your spoils for winning the next tier are a pile of tokens for that tier level and .... another potion that now heals for a firth of your health because you are even farther beyond it.  You start to raise an eyebrow but carry on.  The next tier is even harder requiring not just gear but new strategies.  Back to farming, now you have hundreds of the low level potion.  You finally claw your way to the top of the new tier and manage to win the lottery getting a bag that contains potions that heal you for your full health and increase your damage - and another potion that now heals for one percent of your health but takes up the same slot as the decent potion.  You attempt the next tier but it is shockingly hard.  As you contemplate it, you stand up and walk away because a voice in your head tells you 50% of your reward isn't going to be worth it.

I'm not saying players need to be handed everything on a silver platter, but a reward system that is designed to be purely random (including rewards that have either been previously farmed or are no longer relevant regardless of the effort isn't going to make people happy long term.

The bottom line is this:

Honestly, can anyone say with any confidence that standard shards, or any lower tiers for that matter, will be relevant when we get to chaos levels 10?  15?  20?  This is the foundation of the shard system.  It needs to be good if it is going to bear the weight of end game.  When you grind and plan and finally pull off your fist win of chaos 50 and you get a c1 pack - are you going to feel rewarded?

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a bit worried about the range changes, but overall looking forward to it.

(i would love an ascension reset when the changes are major in range loss, since people would/might not skill this with the new range gain)

for the stuck enemys: why is there no mechanism like the current despawn last enemy thing applied for them? if they are the last enemy for 1-2min or whatever time, check if they have left spawn, if not despawn them and move the game along. checking the map models seems fine, but there might always be some issue, where a mods pushes an enemy into an edge, the ai derps out etc. so maybe a more reliable solution would be nice.

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@Captain Tight Pants quote:


@iamisom quote:

Improving Shard Farming Time

Missed it by that much.

 My question is who does this benefit?

Not new players. 

It doesn't really help max level people either.  

I'm not saying players need to be handed everything on a silver platter, but a reward system that is designed to be purely random 

Honestly, can anyone say with any confidence that standard shards, or any lower tiers for that matter, will be relevant when we get to chaos levels 10?  15?  20?  

Eh, I believe you're not analyzing this correctly and/or embellishing inappropriately (imo) 

Setting up a scenario where your metaphorical player is 'farming' for a shard that DOES NOT DROP from the tier they're farming is a point not worth making.  Especially if that's the only math you're going to include


The new system is just plain better for everyone.  The worst case scenario would be players who are only clearing C1 (because the higher you get the more positive net effect you get from restricting tiers) 

and even there, look at the comparison from old system to new system (idk why you omitted to do this),

Prior system, you get 1-2 C1 shards (or 1.5, but I suspect the % would be weighted towards just 1) and 1 campaign shard.  But C1 shard packs have C1 + campaign shards in them.

So it's more like you get 0.75 C1 shard, and 1.75 campaign shard per completion.  

This is just plain better, you get 1 C1 and 1 campaign.  And if you have the time for 3+ maps it's 2 C1 and 1 campaign.

That's better by a lot, imo


And the higher we go with difficulty the better it gets by cutting out a larger and larger chunk of shards. 

By that effect.. it isn't "purely random" as you put it.  Purely random is closer to what we have now.  Worse, actually, since we're always guaranteed campaign shards out of at least 1 of the shard packs we get.  


And I would say with confidence that standard shards + lower tier shards will be relevant at all chaos tiers.  They're all balanced around each other now, and that's pretty plainly seen across the armor/damage reduction, resource management, on-hit effect, +% damage, etc shards.  And the ones that are "clearly" better are getting nerfs (rip storm shard).

In fact for towers some of the most important shards are from campaign and C1.  Will especially be the case if they actually have tuned crit dmg properly with DP to make more interesting choices possibe


Idk, the only point I could see you making here is that it needs to get EVEN BETTER.  Which.. eh.. it's getting much better after this patch and I was OK with the rate of shard accumulation we currently have (the one guy who obviously plays more than anyone else has got ~20x of all the good shards in the first month of shards being out, for instance)

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@Captain Tight Pants quote:

It doesn't really help max level people either.  Hang on a bit, gonna get into some math.  Let's say we have a maxed out defender.  Can afk through c5 like it's not a thing.  Now she/he wants a lower tier shard.  So they beat a c5 map and loot the chest.  First off the lower level pack can be standard, c1, c2, c3, or c4.  So right off the bat, there is only a 20% chance they will get the tier they want, or conversely 80% a pack they don't want/need (and this will get worse over time as they add more chaos levels and thus dilute the pool further).  Now let's be kind and say the pack they want only has 25 options in it.  That means when you open the pack you have a 4% chance of getting the shard you want (that's 2.85% for a 35 shard pack for the curious).  So here is where it gets silly.  You have a 20% chance at a 4% chance.  Which is to say when you win a c5 map, you have a 0.8% chance of the pack you need and then the shard you want (or 0.57% for the 35 shard packs).

Meanwhile, if they tiers only dropped their tier and nothing else, you could get 2 rolls of 2.85-4% which is immensely better than half a percent.

Don't forget that one pack is guaranteed to be from the map tier.  So for 25-shard packs you first have a 4% chance to obtain your shard from the guaranteed pack, and then a 0.8% chance to obtain it from the random pack.  This works out to a total 4.77% chance.

After you get the win bonus, you get two guaranteed packs, for a total 8.58% chance to get the shard you want.  For the 35-shard packs it's 6.16%.  That doesn't sound too bad.

Let's compare to the current system.  The chance to get a campaign shard from a chaos 1 pack is around 50%, so it stands to reason that the chance to get a chaos 5 shard from a chaos 5 pack is at most 50%.  Most likely it's less since chaos 5 packs can also drop chaos 1-4 shards.  I think the chance to get a second pack from the chest is also roughly 50%.  If there's 25 different shards for the tier you are targeting, it's a 2% chance per pack to obtain the shard, and the compound probability per map is 2.98%.  For a pack with 120 shards (I assume this is chaos 1, so applies for the range shard) the probability is a pathetic 0.63%.

To me the new drop system definitely sounds like an improvement.

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Why are you nerfing auras, AOEs  and traps with max number of targets? If I have 20 enemies inside a fire aura, shouldn't they ALL be affected?? It will make many defenses useless because masses of enemies will walk right through them with no damage. These levels have dozens of enemies squished together at a time. All this will do is put more pressure on blockades and make more defenses obsolete.

Let me put it to you this way, If 100 people are caught in a fire, the fire won't care how many are in it...ALL 100 people will be burned!

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@Pachipachio quote:

Eh, I believe you're not analyzing this correctly and/or embellishing inappropriately (imo) 

Setting up a scenario where your metaphorical player is 'farming' for a shard that DOES NOT DROP from the tier they're farming is a point not worth making.  Especially if that's the only math you're going to include


Idk, the only point I could see you making here is that it needs to get EVEN BETTER.  Which.. eh.. it's getting much better after this patch and I was OK with the rate of shard accumulation we currently have (the one guy who obviously plays more than anyone else has got ~20x of all the good shards in the first month of shards being out, for instance)

I never said the current system was better.  It is not, it is pure rng hell.  Saying the new system is worse than the current system is not at all the point I was making.

What I AM saying is the decision to include lower tier packs is a mistake for the long term future of the shard system.  

First off it is a point worth making because the developers decided to make lower tier packs mandatory.  And I concede the point that there are campaign and c1 shards that are vital.  However, my point is that as we get deeper and deeper into chaos levels we will eventually acquire them naturally.  The gearing system is anti-carry.  So a player has to farm a level of chaos to get gear, meaning they will collect shards along the way.  With the new system the packs for that level will always be of the newest pool which means that by the natural progression of gearing through a chaos level they will acquire many if not most of the shards with the new system.  

To put another way: A range shards is a huge reward right now.  When we are all farming c20 looking for the new hotness and have 10 range shards sitting in our bags, getting a c1 pack is not going to be vital at that point.  It fact it will most likely be a waste.  Not because the shards in the pack are worthless on their own, but because we have all farmed and progressed past the immediate need for them.

The point I am trying to make is not if they are relevant by themselves in a vacuum, but if they are relevant as a reward to someone who has advanced though the system at highest levels.

And the reason I make this argument is because this is the foundation of the endgame.  It does need to be even better.  If the foundation has holes in it, they need to be patched.  And now is the time.  When we have c20 and beyond making changes is going to be that much harder.  It needs to be strong enough to bear the weight of endgame, for advanced players and new alike. 

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@raiden7447 quote:

Why are you nerfing auras, AOEs  and traps with max number of targets? If I have 20 enemies inside a fire aura, shouldn't they ALL be affected?? It will make many defenses useless because masses of enemies will walk right through them with no damage. These levels have dozens of enemies squished together at a time. All this will do is put more pressure on blockades and make more defenses obsolete.

Let me put it to you this way, If 100 people are caught in a fire, the fire won't care how many are in it...ALL 100 people will be burned!

most auras/traps are being buffed by this as they currently target 8 max

so, ya... your builds wont become useless or make more defenses obsolete 

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@tdb quote:

Don't forget that one pack is guaranteed to be from the map tier.  So for 25-shard packs you first have a 4% chance to obtain your shard from the guaranteed pack, and then a 0.8% chance to obtain it from the random pack.  This works out to a total 4.77% chance.

After you get the win bonus, you get two guaranteed packs, for a total 8.58% chance to get the shard you want.  For the 35-shard packs it's 6.16%.  That doesn't sound too bad.

To me the new drop system definitely sounds like an improvement.

I'm not saying the new drop system isn't an improvement.  It is.  Hands down.  But is has a flaw built into it.

First off, your math is wrong.  The random pack is from LESSER TIER meaning it has a 0% chance of dropping a shard of the tier you are on.  Aka you are farming c1, the guaranteed pack will be c1 and has a 4% chance to be the shard you want, but the random pack will always be a campaign shard.  Same for all other levels.  If you are farming c4, the random pack can be campaign, c1, c2, or c3 - never c4.

So you have a 4% chance at max for the first 3 matches, not 4.77.

This is the flaw I'm talking about.  50% of the packs we will get are random and not for the tier we are farming.

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@Captain Tight Pants quote:


@Pachipachio quote:

Setting up a scenario where your metaphorical player is 'farming' for a shard that DOES NOT DROP from the tier they're farming is a point not worth making.  Especially if that's the only math you're going to include

First off it is a point worth making because the developers decided to make lower tier packs mandatory.  And I concede the point that there are campaign and c1 shards that are vital.  However, my point is that as we get deeper and deeper into chaos levels we will eventually acquire them naturally.  The gearing system is anti-carry.  So a player has to farm a level of chaos to get gear, meaning they will collect shards along the way.  With the new system the packs for that level will always be of the newest pool which means that by the natural progression of gearing through a chaos level they will acquire many if not most of the shards with the new system.  

Why is that a point worth making? 

"because the devs decided to make lower tier packs mandatory" doesn't illuminate it for me.  Still don't know why anyone would farm a C4 shard in C5 under this new system (or any certain shard in an upper-difficulty), and why that's a relevant scenario to emphasize


@Captain Tight Pants quote:

The point I am trying to make is not if they are relevant by themselves in a vacuum, but if they are relevant as a reward to someone who has advanced though the system at highest levels.

And the reason I make this argument is because this is the foundation of the endgame.  It does need to be even better.  If the foundation has holes in it, they need to be patched.  And now is the time.  When we have c20 and beyond making changes is going to be that much harder.  It needs to be strong enough to bear the weight of endgame, for advanced players and new alike. 

I think I get the point you're making now?  You're foreseeing that people will be inundated with shards of previous difficulties and never need any of the lesser difficulty shard packs.  So that shard pack will just be, what, an annoyance?  Game would be smoother if it was removed?  Edit: Having thought about it longer, I guess I wouldn't mind very much the guaranteed lesser tier drop be removed altogether, but could just auto-sell them later on just like I do with 100% of pet garbage and 98% of gear 



Or should it be converted to another current-tier shard pack?  Getting 2 of-tier shard packs + another 1 after completing 3 maps

Man, I don't know - I think you're overreacting.  

Our shard accumulation is already pretty good under the current worse-than-rng system.  It's important to look at the new system through that lens.  I don't know what you would want changed even further, but from the sounds of it there would be too much "on a silver platter" 

It's so drastically better for the higher tiers of farming that I'm actually baffled that you're baffled that they went with this direction


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@iamisom quote:

All defenses now have an innate Crit Chance of 10%, up from the old 3%, to make the Crit Damage stat more valuable early in the game. In addition, we increased the Crit Chance max to 33% on all defenses and fixed the bugs that were allowing various defenses to bypass the maximum.


I do not understand this, can someone give some clarity about this:

If max crit chance is 33%, and innate is 10% and you get 20% from Ascension gives you 30% right? That renders the Critical Strike Shard useless right (+15% Crit Chance)? Well if you really want 3% at the cost of a shard slot...

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@Captain Tight Pants quote:

I'm not saying the new drop system isn't an improvement.  It is.  Hands down.  But is has a flaw built into it.

First off, your math is wrong.  The random pack is from LESSER TIER meaning it has a 0% chance of dropping a shard of the tier you are on.  Aka you are farming c1, the guaranteed pack will be c1 and has a 4% chance to be the shard you want, but the random pack will always be a campaign shard.  Same for all other levels.  If you are farming c4, the random pack can be campaign, c1, c2, or c3 - never c4.

So you have a 4% chance at max for the first 3 matches, not 4.77.

This is the flaw I'm talking about.  50% of the packs we will get are random and not for the tier we are farming.

Oh yeah, true.  Still, the win bonus system means that if you play well enough, you can get two guaranteed packs from the tier you're farming.  So if you win at least six maps in a row you'll come out ahead of the current system in number of packs.

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