Relic farm is obnoxious.

The RNG involved in relic drops is outrageous.

Here is how it works :

You can drop a Medaillon, Mark, Totem or Orb (1/4 chance to get what you want).

You can drop 4 rarities (green, blue, purple or yellow, so 1/4 chance, or even less than that because legendary is rarer).

You can get 3 sets of secondary stats (for exemple, DH+DS, DH+DCD, DS+DCD medaillons, so 1/3chance to get what you want).

You can get 4 upgrade values (15, 30, 45, 60, so 1/4 chance to get what you want).

If i'm looking for a legendary medaillon with defense speed, defense health and 60 upgrades, I have 1 chance out of 192 at best. And I need to do this for EACH TOWER I will use.

Things wouldn't be that bad if you could actually use defense crit damage, orbs and marks, but they are just worse than medaillon with defense speed in nearly every way.

I thought shards were introduced to stop the massive RNG involved in farming equipment, but getting the best equipment I can is becoming really painful.

Here are some easy ways to deal with this :

• Allow legendary items to get only 60 upgrades.
• Decrease Mark and Orb drop rates drastically.
• Increase secondary defense speed/power stat drop rate (as it is far superior than crit damage).

Don't hesitate to tell me if I am wrong somewhere, I'm not the best mathematician, that I know.

1 out of 192 is pretty good

look at other games..

1 / 192 is just for the perfect relic

you still get other relics with good stats before that. so no reason to get the perfect relic right at the start, what would you farm then if you get all da good stuff at the beginning? ;o

No, that's the problem. Other drops are utterly bad.

If you get the 2 first rarity, they are useless.

Marks and orbs, useless.

If you get defense crit rather than health or speed, medaillon will be useless.

If you get anything but 60 for upgrade, useless.

You have to find a medaillon or a totem, and no defense crit, mythic quality, at least.

Remember that you have to replace every relic you own for each new difficulty. Even when you are not looking for 100% best legendary, the farm is a real pain.

I don't even want to farm c5 gear because I just get 99% trash loot.

Other games can be worst, but I have seen devs of THIS game concerned about drop RNG, in devstream. They told us they wanted to tune it down, and it's working for pieces of gear. Not for relics, though.

@Hadeskrieger quote:

1 out of 192 is pretty good

look at other games..

1 / 192 is just for the perfect relic

you still get other relics with good stats before that. so no reason to get the perfect relic right at the start, what would you farm then if you get all da good stuff at the beginning? ;o

But 1/192 is just one relic. If you want those useable stats for, say, 6 towers, that's 1152 relics on average just to get the ones with the ideal stats for 6 towers. That's not even factoring in the RNG behind drop rarity AND the need to constantly equip better gear in order to advance and in turn obtain yet better gear.

[[150202,users]], my suggestions would be first for the drop rates to be a lot less cruel (I just did 3 rounds of chaos 4, and received a total of 4 blue rarity or higher talismans, for example, and not one had the spread I wanted). Also, Legendary drops should roll with either 45 or 60 upgrades, having the full 15-60 RNG on all items is ridiculous, legendaries should be better by default.

Or, and this should be extremely expensive and/or rare, if implemented at all, a method that can reroll a single stat on a piece of gear (sort of like Diablo 3, in which only 1 stat on any gear can be rerolled, meaning that the hunt for gear is still a thing) to help offset the RNG.

Lastly, much like the update to nightmare mode, certain stat spreads should be more common by default, and change based on your active hero. So, Defense Power on a talisman should have a higher chance of rolling with defense health and defense speed than with any other combination.

I agree with you, the hunt for loot hasn't been this bad since vanilla.

Yeah let's hope they buff the perfect item drop chances, it took me so long to find them :s i mean i wish i could just run few C5 have everything perfect and be done with it! Screw the long ass farming in farming game who wants that???

Sarcasm ^

Just a question, why are you in such a rush getting perfect pieces, what will you do after you get them (more quickly)?

There is a big difference between what you want and what you need. I presume you have some nice myth medallions doing nice work for you.... but some bored part of yourself wants that shiney shiney that someone else has it but you don't.... yet... poor you :D

You'll get it when you get it. I'm still running with purple medalions in my slots since the game only likes to give me leg totems :D. But most of all I would like to see a rebalance of crit since it is kind of useless currently. As well as defense speed not being capped, I mean why bother making orbs have so much speed if half the towers can't even benefit from it.

@Slagk quote:

Yeah let's hope they buff the perfect item drop chances, it took me so long to find them :s i mean i wish i could just run few C5 have everything perfect and be done with it! Screw the long ass farming in farming game who wants that???

Sarcasm ^

Just a question, why are you in such a rush getting perfect pieces, what will you do after you get them (more quickly)?

You don't understand.

I don't mind if it takes a long time to get perfect stuff. That's not even my point. I talk about RNG, here, luck.

Some guy will get perfect medaillon from 1st run in c5, and some other will have to play for weeks, never to find it, because there is too much luck involved.

I am clearing c5 easely, and I have some good relics already, but I don't want to invest my time trying new builds by using a lot of towers because of how stupidly hard it will be to farm. That doesn't sound really good for end game content, right ?

People should be rewarded for playing the hardest difficulty, and that is not what we see in game. Perfect item shouldn't be acquired easely ? Fine. But then they have to do something about not perfect items, because they are absolute trash, at the moment.

@MamaTata quote:

There is a big difference between what you want and what you need. I presume you have some nice myth medallions doing nice work for you.... but some bored part of yourself wants that shiney shiney that someone else has it but you don't.... yet... poor you :D

I'd like to see your arguments, rather than this useless taunt. I already have my shiney.

Lack of arguments here... early morning routine....shaving lags and drinking thoughts 

Edit.... concerning rewards....I'm giving you a special medal right now... it is awesome.... just close your eyes and you'll see how special it is.

@NeedtoDie quote:

@Slagk quote:

Yeah let's hope they buff the perfect item drop chances, it took me so long to find them :s i mean i wish i could just run few C5 have everything perfect and be done with it! Screw the long ass farming in farming game who wants that???

Sarcasm ^

Just a question, why are you in such a rush getting perfect pieces, what will you do after you get them (more quickly)?

You don't understand.

I don't mind if it takes a long time to get perfect stuff. That's not even my point. I talk about RNG, here, luck.

Some guy will get perfect medaillon from 1st run in c5, and some other will have to play for weeks, never to find it, because there is too much luck involved.

I am clearing c5 easely, and I have some good relics already, but I don't want to invest my time trying new builds by using a lot of towers because of how stupidly hard it will be to farm. That doesn't sound really good for end game content, right ?

People should be rewarded for playing the hardest difficulty, and that is not what we see in game. Perfect item shouldn't be acquired easely ? Fine. But then they have to do something about not perfect items, because they are absolute trash, at the moment.

@MamaTata quote:

There is a big difference between what you want and what you need. I presume you have some nice myth medallions doing nice work for you.... but some bored part of yourself wants that shiney shiney that someone else has it but you don't.... yet... poor you :D

I'd like to see your arguments, rather than this useless taunt. I already have my shiney.

You're upset because you think luck is unfair? --  That's life man... 

I play the hardest difficulty in C5, Most of the drops do suck, but sometimes I get LUCKY and I get rewarded for my dedication to grinding.  Sounds like endgame to me man.  

@NeedtoDie quote:

You don't understand.

I don't mind if it takes a long time to get perfect stuff. That's not even my point. I talk about RNG, here, luck.

Some guy will get perfect medaillon from 1st run in c5, and some other will have to play for weeks, never to find it, because there is too much luck involved.

I am clearing c5 easely, and I have some good relics already, but I don't want to invest my time trying new builds by using a lot of towers because of how stupidly hard it will be to farm. That doesn't sound really good for end game content, right ?

People should be rewarded for playing the hardest difficulty, and that is not what we see in game. Perfect item shouldn't be acquired easely ? Fine. But then they have to do something about not perfect items, because they are absolute trash, at the moment.

Well first of all i don't agree the non perfect pieces are "trash" as they are more than enough to get you through C5.

The rng in getting those perfect drops (some ppl might get them instantly while you farm for days) is and has been part of this genre for long ass while. All this rng in the end balances out though, it's not like there is a guy who forever gets that perfect piece first run and you always need several days.

I much rather prefer the rng loot system, as it makes you hopeful in getting the items and (excited?) when it drops. unlike if it was static system like farm this currency what you get 5x a run and buy your item is just in my opinion boring (souls of night style).

If you get item X knowingly after 5 runs, it's not as exciting it's more like a chore. Unlike if you play and know there is always a chance for that perfect item is generally more exciting for most people.

Item system being as bland as it is though takes away from the excitment as in the end all the items are just same, and once you hit gear cap every drop will have these guaranteed max stats which really takes away the "wow man would you look at this" feeling.

@NeedtoDie quote:

• Decrease Mark and Orb drop rates drastically.

Looking from a dev point of view, if players say Mark and Orb are unwanted relics and medallion is most wanted, we should make unwanted relics like mark and orb drop more than medallions. Because more unwanted and less wanted makes more unwanted get used and players find it harder to get what they want, because we all can't always get what we want right?

So Decrease Medallion drop rates drastically rather.

at first I thought the 15/30/45/60 was bad, because I saw them as replacing passives along with the added 3rd main stat. However thats really not the case, if a legendary drops its stat quantity is always perfect unlike the old 750 grind where you almost never got an actual 750 and when you did it was highly likely to be the wrong stats.
Now assuming you are after a medallion and one drops you need 3 out of 4 potential stats, meaning at least 2 of them will ALWAYS be the best, with the 3rd being either good or bad, and for most people its always usable.

So the RNG comes down to the upgrade amount, which is in a way what replaces the 716-750 grind.. so its far far more forgiving.

I actually have found I am getting perfect relics to fast, with 3 perfect medallions and 1 perfect health Totem (no DP so not full perfect).

The complaint I do have, I feel that 45 and 60 up legendary items should be better then 60 up mythical, but 45's are not.

@Zimmermann quote:

at first I thought the 15/30/45/60 was bad, because I saw them as replacing passives along with the added 3rd main stat. However thats really not the case, if a legendary drops its stat quantity is always perfect unlike the old 750 grind where you almost never got an actual 750 and when you did it was highly likely to be the wrong stats.
Now assuming you are after a medallion and one drops you need 3 out of 4 potential stats, meaning at least 2 of them will ALWAYS be the best, with the 3rd being either good or bad, and for most people its always usable.

So the RNG comes down to the upgrade amount, which is in a way what replaces the 716-750 grind.. so its far far more forgiving.

I actually have found I am getting perfect relics to fast, with 3 perfect medallions and 1 perfect health Totem (no DP so not full perfect).

The complaint I do have, I feel that 45 and 60 up legendary items should be better then 60 up mythical, but 45's are not.

You have to get a medaillon, he has to be purple or legendary, and he has to use defense speed and defense health (some of them don't need, but most of them do).

Meaning if you drop an orb, a mark, a blue, a green, a defense crit damage secondary stat or a 15 upgrade, you lost your time.

When you had a 700-750ipwr item, you could use it most of the time, if you had correct passive and stats.

I don't know why most of you guys focus so hard on perfect loot. I told you already I don't really care about that.

What concerns me is that a great chunk of the loot we get is useless. You can't even win c4 with most of them...

I know that RNG is part of the game, and that the best loot should involve luck.

Let's take 2 exemples of people who clear c5 for the first time :

The first one gets a legendary chest with a good medaillon.

The second one gets a green chest.

Where those 2 players spent close to no time clearing end game content, one of them is now really close to complete it while the other just lost his time completly. 

While I'm fine with the first having some luck, I think that what is happening to the second is unfair. Every pieces you can get in c5 should help you in some way, even if it's not going to carry you through content.

you get glory in winning! and fun!

@NeedtoDie quote:

@Zimmermann quote:

at first I thought the 15/30/45/60 was bad, because I saw them as replacing passives along with the added 3rd main stat. However thats really not the case, if a legendary drops its stat quantity is always perfect unlike the old 750 grind where you almost never got an actual 750 and when you did it was highly likely to be the wrong stats.
Now assuming you are after a medallion and one drops you need 3 out of 4 potential stats, meaning at least 2 of them will ALWAYS be the best, with the 3rd being either good or bad, and for most people its always usable.

So the RNG comes down to the upgrade amount, which is in a way what replaces the 716-750 grind.. so its far far more forgiving.

I actually have found I am getting perfect relics to fast, with 3 perfect medallions and 1 perfect health Totem (no DP so not full perfect).

The complaint I do have, I feel that 45 and 60 up legendary items should be better then 60 up mythical, but 45's are not.

You have to get a medaillon, he has to be purple or legendary, and he has to use defense speed and defense health (some of them don't need, but most of them do).

Meaning if you drop an orb, a mark, a blue, a green, a defense crit damage secondary stat or a 15 upgrade, you lost your time.

When you had a 700-750ipwr item, you could use it most of the time, if you had correct passive and stats.

I don't know why most of you guys focus so hard on perfect loot. I told you already I don't really care about that.

What concerns me is that a great chunk of the loot we get is useless. You can't even win c4 with most of them...

I know that RNG is part of the game, and that the best loot should involve luck.

Let's take 2 exemples of people who clear c5 for the first time :

The first one gets a legendary chest with a good medaillon.

The second one gets a green chest.

Where those 2 players spent close to no time clearing end game content, one of them is now really close to complete it while the other just lost his time completly. 

While I'm fine with the first having some luck, I think that what is happening to the second is unfair. Every pieces you can get in c5 should help you in some way, even if it's not going to carry you through content.

All I can say is, I am getting best in slot gear way faster now then before the patch. However I am getting upgrades to gear in general much slower. purple and gold items drop far less, but when they do they have a much better chance of being super good.

I would agree the loot feels spiky.. as in nothing nothing nothing amazing. rather then incremental improvements. But I am still capping out on gear far far quicker then I did before with the 750 grind, as I never achieved perfect gear, only 1 or 2 perfect items while I had 750 range in every slot on every hero that would benefit from them.

Here is a video where you can see 2 offensive relics you drop in the same difficulty :

Notice that the first isn't even the best (not legendary, no 60 upgrade), but the stats (medaillon + DS) and rarity are enough to make it more than 20times stronger.

The first is at 150k+dps, the second is around 7500 dps. Same difficulty !

The mark is so bad I don't even know if I can clear c1-2-3, probably not...

You don't have any more chance to find the first than the second, because most of the loot comes from chests, and you don't get more green than purple ones. 

@NeedtoDie quote:

Here is a video where you can see 2 offensive relics you drop in the same difficulty :

Notice that the first isn't even the best (not legendary, no 60 upgrade), but the stats (medaillon + DS) and rarity are enough to make it more than 20times stronger.

The first is at 150k+dps, the second is around 7500 dps. Same difficulty !

The mark is so bad I don't even know if I can clear c1-2-3, probably not...

You don't have any more chance to find the first than the second, because most of the loot comes from chests, and you don't get more green than purple ones. 

Well yeah flamethrower has dumb speed scaling so if your relic doesnt have that stat it's not usable. This is more of an issue with the towers itself imo.

But overally you have a point, a mark without speed is essentially useless and tbh marks are close to useless no matter what stats they roll currently.

Crit dmg and defense power are too similar in this game, it's easy to make calculation which is better and with the current setup we have with shards and stuff they can never be balanced, the other one is always better because they are similar mechanics.

Making hybrid's out of them is also out of question due to crit needing it's own separate shards (chance, dmg) and DP needing it's own shard (destruction).

what I think is: the perfect medallions are not worth farming for 

its ok to have very rare things in the game, but something SO rare should give HIGH reward

if you farm so much to get it, it should have like 5 shard slots not just 3

yes it will be OP but something so hard to get SHOULD be OP

Also, those that like Gunwitch are forced to play another character if they want relics.  Or FULLY UPGRADE THE GEAR OF THREE OTHER HEROS and have them in your deck besides your gunwitch and even then your drop rate of relics will be less than one person with one fully upgraded geared hero in their deck.

I have had worse odds. 

Back when I played Phantasy Star Online on SCHTSERV, I spent 2 months farming for a Sealed J Sword, which had a 1/12609 chance off a specific enemy and I got one. It was a good thing they had a custom quest to help spawn the monster I needed in less runs. I unsealed the sword to Tsumikiri in 2 weeks. I ended up however losing it to a NOLhacker that attacked the site and I quit the game then after I lost my best character that had the sword and 3 Lame D'argents... all because the admins were ***s and refused to rollback.

1/192 does sound like crap. However, there are other things you gain while you are acquiring needed items such as other items, Shards and Ascension Levels. You maybe better off even getting a Blue with 45-60 levels to work and pick the 2 Shards as a priority (eg. Walls would need Fortification and Shielding Guard) and work with that. 

1/192 is only for a very specific item. For some towers you don't need that exact combination. For example if you're using Weapons manufacturer (and I believe Nimbus) you don't need or even want health. Thus, if you get a 60 ups Medallion with DS+DCD you can use it for those. Orbs could technically be better than medallions on some towers once you get high enough ascension levels. With high enough dps and range a lot of towers will never get hurt so they don't need DH, while other towers are almost always gonna be close enough that they might take some damage and then you want the DH in the relic. If you have an abundance of Vamp shards DH becomes a dps stat, but if you're lacking in those shards then it's wasted on some towers.

I honestly don't think the RNG is as bad as you claim. Unless of course you're looking for that one specific item and everything else is maxed. But you're at that point, well honestly it's probably a good thing to have something to work towards while waiting for new chaos tiers.

You can drop a Medaillon, Mark, Totem or Orb (1/4 chance to get what you want)

15 out ouf 20 offensive meds are marks when i play with the squire then 4 orbs and 1 med.  so this 1/4... maybe its char based idk but the "rng" in this game is horrible^^

The only thing that bothers me is victory chest and upgrade levels.

A blue relic shouldn't be stronger than a mythical/legendary. Because a 60 upgr blue is way stronger than a 15 or 30 upgr mythical or legendary. (except the fact that it has only 2 shard slots).

On the other hand the drop rates are ridiculous.. I get relics with stats that I'll never use and not usefull at all. The worst case when I don't get a single mythical or legendary, and on top of that I get a Green Chest as a "reward".

Legendary totems shouldn't have 15 or 30 max upgrade (only 45 and 60), and mythical shouldn't have 15 upgrades (only 30, 45 and 60) in my opinion. 

Compared to how hard it was to farm "perfect" gear on DD1 we should consider ourselves lucky, 1/192 for a perfect legendary is fine. 

Mythicals do the job fine and there are plenty of towers that use marks/totems to look for as well. I really question why people keep trying to make the game easier, would you really enjoy it if everything was handed to you and made easymode instantly?