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Lets talk about Assassins


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@R-Kane quote:
@calmchaos quote:
@R-Kane quote:
@Randomroxas quote:
@R-Kane quote:

It's still a stupid idea. Making them an air enemy is more than sufficient

You have to explain your point if you want to be taken seriously. Simply calling it a stupid idea doesn't add anything to your argument. If we weren't interested in what you're trying to say, then we wouldn't reply to you anymore. We want to know why you think it's stupid.


Anyway, you need to keep in mind that the assassins are supposed to distract and kill heroes. They're meant to keep us away from the lanes we need to be in. If they can be taken out by towers, that completely makes their purpose irrelevant. It should only be possible to kill them with heroes.

They don't even act like assassins. They act like magically teleporting bandits. If that's what Trendy had marketed them as, I'd have no problem with the way they work currently, but Trendy didn't so I do. They need to act like assassins if Trendy intends to call them that.

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@Zimmermann quote:

You went into C5 with less then half the health you should have gone in with, that was such a major issue (I know you had worm scarf, not sure if you had bulwark). If you had sharpened spikes, 80-100k life, sitting on your self heal on a blockade you would have never or rarely died. 

I was using Worm Scarf and I did have Bulwark, and I was using Sharpened Spikes.

100k HP is not achievable in Chaos 4 gear for Abyss Lord. 80k is barely achievable. If you're lucky and you are able to get legendary items for every slot with health and 60 upgrades, you can just reach 86k. I'm not going to spend a life time farming C4 to get warlock gear with 60 upgrades in every slot.

And it turns out higher ability power worked much better for me than higher Health did. I replaced some of my ability power gear with health gear and reset my ascension to get some more health and then I could no longer beat C5 at all. I put some ability gear back on and reset ascension again to put points into abyss knight and it wasn't easy but I could beat C5 again.

I don't have the luxury of just having all maxed out warlock gear before I start playing the game. I have to play the game without that gear in order to get that gear.

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and here i am doing C5 with 52k health Abysslord ;)... think i started around 40k health.. it was really hard tho.. perfect timing of the Abyss knights needed all the time...

Now i have walls that hit for 3.2Million and Withering fountain Assassins are not an issue at all..but as soon as i worked out Orc walls could kill assassins that was the end of my troubles for C5... occasionally i still lose to something getting past a wall but thats about it now.. and i have many many upgrades to get...

but ive always run 2 piece Wizard 2 piece Warlock... (i like that crit)

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@LJMjollnir quote:

and here i am doing C5 with 52k health Abysslord ;)... think i started around 40k health.. it was really hard tho.. perfect timing of the Abyss knights needed all the time...

Now i have walls that hit for 3.2Million and Withering fountain Assassins are not an issue at all..but as soon as i worked out Orc walls could kill assassins that was the end of my troubles for C5... occasionally i still lose to something getting past a wall but thats about it now.. and i have many many upgrades to get...

but ive always run 2 piece Wizard 2 piece Warlock... (i like that crit)

I'm using a 40k HP huntress atm. Assassins are never the problem... random unpredictable things are what always end my runs. Lady orcs jumping walls... Javalin throwers randomly piercing a mile to hit the crystal... Randomly targeting (and some how hitting?) the crystal from a mile away...

The most fun one was when Quibly SOMEHOW got behind my wall... Still can't figure out that one @.@

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@LJMjollnir quote:

and here i am doing C5 with 52k health Abysslord ;)... think i started around 40k health.. it was really hard tho.. perfect timing of the Abyss knights needed all the time...

Now i have walls that hit for 3.2Million and Withering fountain Assassins are not an issue at all..but as soon as i worked out Orc walls could kill assassins that was the end of my troubles for C5... occasionally i still lose to something getting past a wall but thats about it now.. and i have many many upgrades to get...

but ive always run 2 piece Wizard 2 piece Warlock... (i like that crit)

I started doing it at 40k also.

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It's really annoying how like, 5 of the stupid things jump at you around 20 seconds into wave 4 and 5, at which point you pretty much are FORCED to spend 30 seconds or so sitting in your kill zone (even longer if you're not fully geared yet) until they die, and if your defenses in other lanes can't hold that long (or even defenses in your kill zone lane since they'll be a bit busy trying to kill all those assassins), you're screwed.  Especially if mages are appearing healing and ressurrecting everything as skeletons from outside the range of most defenses and you can't have your hero selectively target them because if you leave your kill zone you'll get chain silenced (same goes for burrowing witherbeasts that do so outside your defense range), and then there's also the fact that the bosses start coming around that time, too.  Rather than being able to hunt down and kill priority targets (or hunt down anything really), you need to sit in your kill zone until that big mid-wave BLOB of assassins is gone.

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@calmchaos quote:You have to explain your point if you want to be taken seriously.


If you have to be told why making assassins completely immune to all turrets is a stupid idea then I don't have the patience to explain a damn thing to you :) Sorry kiddo

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@R-Kane quote:
@calmchaos quote:You have to explain your point if you want to be taken seriously.

If you have to be told why making assassins completely immune to all turrets is a stupid idea then I don't have the patience to explain a damn thing to you :) Sorry kiddo

I see. If all you're interested in is making logical fallacies and treating me like scum, then I also don't want to attempt to debate with you.

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@calmchaos quote:
@R-Kane quote:
@calmchaos quote:You have to explain your point if you want to be taken seriously.

If you have to be told why making assassins completely immune to all turrets is a stupid idea then I don't have the patience to explain a damn thing to you :) Sorry kiddo

I see. If all you're interested in is making logical fallacies and treating me like scum, then I also don't want to attempt to debate with you.

You have far more tolerance for willful ignorance than I ever will...

But as far as reason why making them completely immune to towers MIGHT be a bad idea, is because it greatly limits the options a player has for interacting with them. While the game is a little lacking in tools for interesting interactions like this... The best way I can put it is like this:

Say character X is good at killing bosses, but can't handle mobs well. So we build anti-mob towers, and focus down bosses. Well then Character Y is good at stopping mobs... But is uber slow at nuking down bosses. Well then we build anti-boss towers.

Now say character Z does well at a lot of things... But has no way to deal with assassins. Well assassins are immune to towers, so how do we make room for character Z to be played?

Not saying its extremely relevant to the current state of the game... But felt like playing devils advocate.

Other than that... only other reason I can really think of are those that spam sky guards to deal with them? But that seems like an even more poor excuse...

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@xArcAngel quote:

But as far as reason why making them completely immune to towers MIGHT be a bad idea, is because it greatly limits the options a player has for interacting with them. While the game is a little lacking in tools for interesting interactions like this... The best way I can put it is like this:

Say character X is good at killing bosses, but can't handle mobs well. So we build anti-mob towers, and focus down bosses. Well then Character Y is good at stopping mobs... But is uber slow at nuking down bosses. Well then we build anti-boss towers.

Now say character Z does well at a lot of things... But has no way to deal with assassins. Well assassins are immune to towers, so how do we make room for character Z to be played?

Not saying its extremely relevant to the current state of the game... But felt like playing devils advocate.

Other than that... only other reason I can really think of are those that spam sky guards to deal with them? But that seems like an even more poor excuse...

Hmm, but I'd counter that with what appears to be Trendy's objective. Recent changes and comments from Trendy show that they don't want everything to be possible with a single hero. 

The first example of this is the Hero Deck, showing that they want us to use multiple heroes.

The second and far more recent would be the whole Flameburst vs Flamethrower debacle, leaving Apprentice without any AA. Trendy's response then was to just use a different hero to cover what Apprentice lacks.

I think the only thing that doesn't lend that idea any weight is how they made loot work better when you only have a single hero in the deck, but I think that was an unintentional side-effect since Trendy mentioned the possible solution of only using the best gear equipped in the calculations.

Going with that train of thought that not every "challenge" should be possible to overcome with a single tool, I still think it's acceptable for some challenges to only be able to be overcome with heroes. With all the nerfs the Siege Roller has had, there isn't really anything that straight up ignores defenses. I mean, I don't even worry about them spawning anymore. I've just rearranged my defense placements such that whether I go to help or not my Flamethrowers will kill it in the end long before it destroys any of my walls.

---

I very much like that you brought up that topic of how well different heroes can take care of assassins. I'm honestly curious since I haven't gotten around to spending medals on gearing up other heroes. How well do the non-AL heroes deal with the current assassins?

I've heard that some people prefer their Monks or Squires. There have also been a few comments talking about Gun Witch, but no one really goes in depth about how their experience is. To anyone who has used something other than AL to dps in C5, what has your experience been like with assassins?

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@calmchaos quote:

-snip-

Using other heroes to make up for apprentice's lack of AA is one thing... But we're talking about your active hero. You can't use heroes in your deck to makeup for your active DPS heroes weaknesses, except by using those heroes towers. Which again, would come back to the original concern.

As far as non-AL heroes vs assassins...

  • Monk massacres them. Easily as good as AL against them. Even has his own self heal.
  • Apprentice mana bomb can one shot them all if you're strong enough, and can avoid getting interrupted.
  • Huntress is slightly challenged (its what I use). The zones on her AOE aren't well geared for AOEing assassins, and she can't stun lock them like monk or AL. But she can manage well enough.
  • Squires with retribution can AFK and let assassins suicide lol. Slam does less damage on close range targets, so its not as good (if it can even land since they're flyers, I missed the few times I tried). I hear his auto attack build is a ton of damage, so he can probably murder assassins with that too. Haven't tried it.
  • EV2 can use bombs stacks to massacre assassins all at once, made even easier with the decoy left by death from above.
  • Mystic has kinda low damage for me... I didn't even try... But she could probably just sit under her obelisk.
  • Lavamancer's errupt hits like a truck all around him when geared, and provides a massive damage boost to skyguards that are nearby. I don't have a good HP/AP C5 set yet, but the boost to skyguards was a funny/easy way to deal with them by itself.
  • Dryad I have no clue on.
  • Gunwitch can do just fine. With certain setups you can perma CC all of them with the net. It does nice enough damage to kill them reasonably fast, but you'll run out of energy if you use anything else while doing it. Or you can spam frozen needle to kill them 1 by 1. 2-3 of them can kill one with gear. Using her just sacrafices relics basically...

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@calmchaos quote:
 They need to act like assassins if Trendy intends to call them that.

Well then they gotta be deadly and not loving entities... 50k damage per hit base damage and unavoidable, and does not hug? That's my understanding of an assassin don't know whats yours.

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I see a lot of problems with assassins, too. I'd be happy with something on the lines of

- Fixing the perma silence bug

- Decreasing spawn amount by 33-50%

- Increasing assassin damage by 25-50%

- Increasing assassin health by 66-100%


For me the most annoying things are the silence bug and the raw amount of assassins (-> silence spam). Right now with c5 gear assassins die to stuff like pdts in seconds and with c5 armor and 60k+ health you can already survive an attack of 3-4 assassins pretty easily. The main problem is the amount of assassins which often leads to chaos. You can control lower amounts of assassins a lot better, what also lessen problems like assassins accidently attacking X or perma silence spams. Lesser amounts of stronger assassins would still be a major threat but the gameplay would be less frustrating.

Maybe also stretch them out more across the wave so we get 1 assassin every couple of sec and not 4+ at once.

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