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Lets talk about Assassins


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Yep, assassins contribute practically nothing to any tactical aspect of the game once you know what to do with them (make a CC killbox zone.  The end) and they only RESTRAIN you in terms of gameplay because they're 100% unavoidable, thus you're forced to get one on you and you're forced to take hits and you're forced to move off to your kill zone.


It's incredibly anti-fun and brain-dead at the same time.

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There are 3 very easy changes that can be made to assassins and make them viable, although tough, enemies to deal with.


1) Make them semi-visible even when cloaked. Immune to all damage in this mode is fine as long as the player has some idea of where they are (minimap is insufficient for the same reason that the minimap is insufficient at literally its one job).

2) Reduce their health. They're glass cannons.  1,000,000+ health is not a glass cannon (assassins have what, 3M? I haven't tried to figure it out recently).

3) Add a little bit more reaction time from the bind to the murderizing so the player has the ability to react and draw the assassin out in front of their defenses so they don't need a specific kill-box that they stand inside at all times.

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@Draco18s quote:

There are 3 very easy changes that can be made to assassins and make them viable, although tough, enemies to deal with.


1) Make them semi-visible even when cloaked. Immune to all damage in this mode is fine as long as the player has some idea of where they are (minimap is insufficient for the same reason that the minimap is insufficient at literally its one job).

2) Reduce their health. They're glass cannons.  1,000,000+ health is not a glass cannon (assassins have what, 3M? I haven't tried to figure it out recently).

3) Add a little bit more reaction time from the bind to the murderizing so the player has the ability to react and draw the assassin out in front of their defenses so they don't need a specific kill-box that they stand inside at all times.

1) first they would have to change the assassin mechanic cause it uses teleporting and not invisibility.
2) With just purely basing their hp off by amounts of attacks I use, solo has 2mil hp. And they announced to nerf their hp. 
3) I just wish they'd put a mechanic in to avoid the silence bug.

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@Exo dus quote:1) first they would have to change the assassin mechanic cause it uses teleporting and not invisibility.

2) With just purely basing their hp off by amounts of attacks I use, solo has 2mil hp. And they announced to nerf their hp. 
3) I just wish they'd put a mechanic in to avoid the silence bug.

1) Oh no. The horror. Actually having to move...

2) The nerf is not as big as you think it will be.

3) Well, if I go back to this mob design doc I created and sent to Isom like a year ago (several mechanics of which ended up in the new mobs)....my original idea was actually a burrowing creature.  It would chase players (check), damage defenses it passed under, upon reaching the player it would pop out of the ground (check) stun the player (check), knock them into the air, and become vulnerable to damage (check).

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The assassins in C5 are anti-fun. They make you do nothing. In C4 gear they are immensely irritating and hard to deal with and in C5 gear they are trivial. They add nothing to the game. The "challenge" of breaking into C5 should not be "your hero is not allowed to move, attack, or use abilities."

This game was so easy that everyone AFK'd it out of boredom. Now I'm forced to AFK because of a stupidly designed game mechanic.

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I really disliked assassins at first but they can be dealt within once you know how. They are immensely frustrating initially but there are so many mechanisms in the game to remove them.


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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

The assassins in C5 are anti-fun. They make you do nothing. In C4 gear they are immensely irritating and hard to deal with and in C5 gear they are trivial. They add nothing to the game. The "challenge" of breaking into C5 should not be "your hero is not allowed to move, attack, or use abilities."

This game was so easy that everyone AFK'd it out of boredom. Now I'm forced to AFK because of a stupidly designed game mechanic.

I agree that chain CC is not fun, and I also agree that the constant worry of being CC'ed when wanting to kill a boss etc is kinda annoying and not fun, but you made assassins harder then they are (as did I to begin with).

I used a geyser to deal with them and the sparkle party pet, I then found the sharpened spikes shard and did not use it straight away (that was making my life harder), once I switched they were a doddle, I even dropped the CC pet.

You went into C5 with less then half the health you should have gone in with, that was such a major issue (I know you had worm scarf, not sure if you had bulwark). If you had sharpened spikes, 80-100k life, sitting on your self heal on a blockade you would have never or rarely died. 

I think the biggest problems with the assassins is the lack of decent sharing of strategies, lack of decent stun shards (when starting out) and the aforementioned dislike of CC effects on the player.

I now counter assassins with a single shard (sharpened spikes) and a moderate health pool, the rest is just DPS. Yes thats gear obviously, but its also knowing how the threat works and the best counters.


Assassins in C6+ will be much much easier, because though we will be out geared, we will have the shards, have the strategies and know what to aim for with gear and health pools.

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@Fozzie quote:

I really disliked assassins at first but they can be dealt within once you know how. They are immensely frustrating initially but there are so many mechanisms in the game to remove them.


@Zimmermann quote:
-snip-

You went into C5 with less then half the health you should have gone in with, that was such a major issue (I know you had worm scarf, not sure if you had bulwark). If you had sharpened spikes, 80-100k life, sitting on your self heal on a blockade you would have never or rarely died. 

I think the biggest problems with the assassins is the lack of decent sharing of strategies, lack of decent stun shards (when starting out) and the aforementioned dislike of CC effects on the player.

I now counter assassins with a single shard (sharpened spikes) and a moderate health pool, the rest is just DPS. Yes thats gear obviously, but its also knowing how the threat works and the best counters.


Assassins in C6+ will be much much easier, because though we will be out geared, we will have the shards, have the strategies and know what to aim for with gear and health pools.

Just wanted to say that this thread wasn't supposed to be a discussion about how Assassins aren't hard to deal with.
I think we all know how to deal with them by now.

This threads purpose was to suggest a change to Assassins to make them less frustrating for transitioning players and way more interresting for players that already got C5 gear, while also not forcing Hero Health as a must have stat.


Also just wanted to say, I think changing Assassins according to this thread would make them easy to include in future Chaos Tiers.

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Complete overkill.


Just nerf the silence / stun element. In fact I would raise their damage and hp and remove the silence but hey, that's me.


Or add a delay to the silence so that you have a second or 2 to deal with them BEFORE they silence you

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@iamisom quote:

Right now, our plan is to add in a timer between Assassin silences so that you won't get permanently chain-silenced. We're hoping to get that change into the patch following next week's patch. We're also decreasing Assassin health and damage. Hoping to get that into this next patch, but it might not make it until the following patch. There are some other good suggestions in this thread, and I'll send those to the rest of the team.

Could you perhaps make the assassins not hit the core? It's really a pain if you build a c5 map and some random player gets spawn killed next to the core.

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@MaJean quote:

I want tougher assassins, but less of them!

I like the idea that assassins exist to prevent AFK, so perhaps work on that?


I just really hate the buggy, perma silence / chain silence crap. It isn't fun and forces a very stale style of play

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@Randomroxas quote:


@R-Kane quote:

I like the idea that assassins exist to prevent AFK, so perhaps work on that?

Thats why I suggest they shouldn't be attacked by towers.

What a stupid idea :).


Maybe if they didn't chainsilence and there wasn't a perma silence bug they cause

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I'd just like to point out that "tougher, but fewer assassins" is equivalent to "lets make them ogers that hit harder and teleport."

And the game already has ogers.  And if we wanted ogers that hit harder and teleported (and I'm pretty sure we don't), we'd give those abilities to the oger.

We don't need yet another mob that you bash in the face until it falls over.

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@Draco18s quote:

I'd just like to point out that "tougher, but fewer assassins" is equivalent to "lets make them ogers that hit harder and teleport."

And the game already has ogers.  And if we wanted ogers that hit harder and teleported (and I'm pretty sure we don't), we'd give those abilities to the oger.

We don't need yet another mob that you bash in the face until it falls over.

I was thinking more in the lines of giving them more HP and maybe their weapons could be poisonous + reducing their total count per wave, maybe 3 assassins tops or so.  Right now they are the equivalent to mosquitos buzzing around you, and not deadly assassins that stalk you. There is a reason the movie "Alien" will always be better than the sequel "Aliens". Too many aliens killed the scare. 

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@MaJean quote:I was thinking more in the lines of giving them more HP and maybe their weapons could be poisonous + reducing their total count per wave, maybe 3 assassins tops or so.  Right now they are the equivalent to mosquitos buzzing around you, and not deadly assassins that stalk you. There is a reason the movie "Alien" will always be better than the sequel "Aliens". Too many aliens killed the scare. 

Fewer, I agree with.  But I disagree with giving them more health.

Giving them more health makes them a lightning bruiser (assuming they didn't already qualify).

The Lightning Bruiser is an Archetype that sets itself apart from the competition in that it is able to take and give a lot of damage and can move quickly. When considering strength, speed, and toughness, the Lightning Bruiser does not trade off one advantage for another the way, say, the Fragile Speedster trades off durability for speed or the Glass Cannon trades durability for power.

Lightning bruisers have no weaknessess.  THIS IS BAD DESGIN. Especially when it also CC's and makes up for a lack of range by freaking teleporting.

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@Draco18s quote:
@MaJean quote:I was thinking more in the lines of giving them more HP and maybe their weapons could be poisonous + reducing their total count per wave, maybe 3 assassins tops or so.  Right now they are the equivalent to mosquitos buzzing around you, and not deadly assassins that stalk you. There is a reason the movie "Alien" will always be better than the sequel "Aliens". Too many aliens killed the scare. 

Fewer, I agree with.  But I disagree with giving them more health.

Giving them more health makes them a lightning bruiser (assuming they didn't already qualify).

The Lightning Bruiser is an Archetype that sets itself apart from the competition in that it is able to take and give a lot of damage and can move quickly. When considering strength, speed, and toughness, the Lightning Bruiser does not trade off one advantage for another the way, say, the Fragile Speedster trades off durability for speed or the Glass Cannon trades durability for power.

Lightning bruisers have no weaknessess.  THIS IS BAD DESGIN. Especially when it also CC's and makes up for a lack of range by freaking teleporting.

Their weakness would be, that they are few in numbers. And - The poisonous weapons could maybe be used against themselves, by using fire shield or any other shield, when they attack you.  Maybe they can´t handle their own medicine!;) People would wanna farm pets, to get one with shield ability;)

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@R-Kane quote:
@Randomroxas quote:
@R-Kane quote:

I like the idea that assassins exist to prevent AFK, so perhaps work on that?

Thats why I suggest they shouldn't be attacked by towers.

What a stupid idea :).


Maybe if they didn't chainsilence and there wasn't a perma silence bug they cause

If you had read the thread any, you'd know that one of the suggestions is to completely remove their silence because it's unnecessary. Context is important. Please keep it in mind before calling ideas stupid.

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@MaJean quote:Their weakness would be, that they are few in numbers. And - The poisonous weapons could maybe be used against themselves, by using fire shield or any other shield, when they attack you.  Maybe they can´t handle their own medicine!;) People would wanna farm pets, to get one with shield ability;)

No, that's not how that works. They're not boss level monsters. They're intended to be standard mobs, but with above-average qualities.  That means that "low numbers" are not an appropriate weakness.  It's fine for an ogre, or a siege tank to have millions of HP.  But not for assassins. Particularly ones that GTFO and heal to full after (trying to, or successfully) murderizing you.

Mind, for their current stats they are already too plentiful.  And yes, I'd like to see their numbers go down, but they really really ought to have lower stats.  CC + (nearly)instakill damage is fine, provided that when properly countered they crumple like tissue paper.

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@calmchaos quote:
@R-Kane quote:
@Randomroxas quote:
@R-Kane quote:

I like the idea that assassins exist to prevent AFK, so perhaps work on that?

Thats why I suggest they shouldn't be attacked by towers.

What a stupid idea :).


Maybe if they didn't chainsilence and there wasn't a perma silence bug they cause

If you had read the thread any, you'd know that one of the suggestions is to completely remove their silence because it's unnecessary. Context is important. Please keep it in mind before calling ideas stupid.

It's still a stupid idea. Making them an air enemy is more than sufficient

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@R-Kane quote:


@calmchaos quote:
@R-Kane quote:
@Randomroxas quote:
@R-Kane quote:

I like the idea that assassins exist to prevent AFK, so perhaps work on that?

Thats why I suggest they shouldn't be attacked by towers.

What a stupid idea :).


Maybe if they didn't chainsilence and there wasn't a perma silence bug they cause

If you had read the thread any, you'd know that one of the suggestions is to completely remove their silence because it's unnecessary. Context is important. Please keep it in mind before calling ideas stupid.

It's still a stupid idea. Making them an air enemy is more than sufficient

Guess I should explain why i think they shouldn't be attacked by towers.

My suggested changes would make Assassins fast squishy glass cannons.
The SGT would be a must have against them and would make them completly pointless enemys.
They couldn't be a threat to any one because if the uncloak the will be shut down immediatly.
And even if the damage by sgt isn't enough the slow would make them completly useless.

So basicly the main point is that Assassins need some sort of protection to do their job.
They should be countered by active players that pay attention to their suroundings and not by spamming sgts all over the place.

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@Draco18s quote:
@MaJean quote:Their weakness would be, that they are few in numbers. And - The poisonous weapons could maybe be used against themselves, by using fire shield or any other shield, when they attack you.  Maybe they can´t handle their own medicine!;) People would wanna farm pets, to get one with shield ability;)

No, that's not how that works. They're not boss level monsters. They're intended to be standard mobs, but with above-average qualities.  That means that "low numbers" are not an appropriate weakness.  It's fine for an ogre, or a siege tank to have millions of HP.  But not for assassins. Particularly ones that GTFO and heal to full after (trying to, or successfully) murderizing you.

Mind, for their current stats they are already too plentiful.  And yes, I'd like to see their numbers go down, but they really really ought to have lower stats.  CC + (nearly)instakill damage is fine, provided that when properly countered they crumple like tissue paper.

I usually solo. So today I tried 4 player C5. Forget about giving them more HP and forget about poisonous weapons. Just reduce their numbers. As easy as they are to deal with while soloing, they are hell in 4 player C5.

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@MaJean quote:

I usually solo. So today I tried 4 player C5. Forget about giving them more HP and forget about poisonous weapons. Just reduce their numbers. As easy as they are to deal with while soloing, they are hell in 4 player C5.

Large part of that hell comes from the damage increase. A monster that you can't dodge dealing double damage is just silly. Especially with their armor system...

The double damage needs to go before anything else in this game imo...

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@xArcAngel quote:


@MaJean quote:

I usually solo. So today I tried 4 player C5. Forget about giving them more HP and forget about poisonous weapons. Just reduce their numbers. As easy as they are to deal with while soloing, they are hell in 4 player C5.

Large part of that hell comes from the damage increase. A monster that you can't dodge dealing double damage is just silly. Especially with their armor system...

The double damage needs to go before anything else in this game imo...

First thing that needs to go is the fact that you can't dodge them...

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