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LuDeRu

Core Randomly Explodes

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Dear Trendy, pls tell me why I suck at this game and what I did wrong this time?

I watched the minimap on this record all the time and no enemy was near it. In the "killcam" you don't see anything either.

I thought a speer could have hit the SGT standing not so far away from the core but the SGT still has full HP so it can't be.


I am sorry for being such a total looser and not good enough for playing your genius game. But I still want to improve so please answer this thread if you love every single pleb in the community and tell me what I should have done.


With best regards, the noob LuDeRu.

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Simple, the answer lies in sewer gases.


"Sewer gas is a complex mixture of toxic and nontoxic gases produced and collected in sewage systems by the decomposition of organic household or industrial wastes, typical components of sewage.[1]

Sewer gases may include hydrogen sulfide, ammonia, methane, esters, carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides. Improper disposal of petroleum products such as gasoline and mineral spirits contribute to sewer gas hazards. Sewer gases are of concern due to their odor, health effects, and potential for creating fire or explosions." kobold.pngEmoji_FlyingTNT.pngkobold.png


As you can see the article clearly states there's chance for explosion, if you need more guidance on this subject here's the wiki link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewer_gas


and here we have some more famous cases of explosions, if you truly want to improve as a player i suggest you take good look at the following articles, and prepare countermeasures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisville_sewer_explosions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Ottawa_sewer_explosion

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Till you learn the maps how the enemies travel through them, it's a good idea to spend extra DU on double walls in your lanes. A lot of the time lady orcs can sneak by just one wall, even two (if placed poorly). 

Don't worry, we have all failed many maps due to improper wall placement (or not enough lol). Do take note though, javelins can be thrown through them, so once again the rule is - placement placement placement...and a bit of practice ;)

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@[UMF] Filthylopez quote:

Till you learn the maps how the enemies travel through them, it's a good idea to spend extra DU on double walls in your lanes. A lot of the time lady orcs can sneak by just one wall, even two (if placed poorly). 

Don't worry, we have all failed many maps due to improper wall placement (or not enough lol). Do take note though, javelins can be thrown through them, so once again the rule is - placement placement placement...and a bit of practice ;)

I don't know if you are sarcastic but in case you are not: Please read my thread before you answer. I wrote that this was NOT the case. 

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@Slagk quote:

Simple, the answer lies in sewer gases.

So random losses are coded in this map as a feature? Damn, the more you know. xD

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I've had the same problem with this map.  Every time I try it on chaos 3, I lose to a randomly exploding core.  The camera pan after defeat never showed any enemies so at first I thought it was a spear guy or a flying kobold.  However no amount of fiddling with the placement of my walls or skyguards helped.

I guess I'll just have to complete my sewer daily on campaign then.  I'd reroll it if it wasn't of the 450 medal variety.

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@LuDeRu quote:

-snip-

If you look at the top left, something stops moving in that lane at a place to where if it faced you're wall, it'd also be facing straight towards you're crystal.

Now javelins should not reach any where NEAR that far with their pierce... Let alone aggro over that wall... But those things have been pretty BS for me this patch, so like 0.0001% that explains it?

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@xArcAngel quote:

If you look at the top left, something stops moving in that lane at a place to where if it faced you're wall, it'd also be facing straight towards you're crystal.

I don't know what you refer with top left but if you mean the minimap then a not moving enemy can also be a frozen enemy from my frosty or a witherbeast that just dig in the earth. I approximately know the javelin range but the only object near the core was a sgt which still had full hp after the loose. The only explanation currently left for me is that a explosive kobold exploded under the bride (down left lane) and the explosion went through the terrain in a huge radius to the core. But that would be insane too.....

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There weren't any exploding ground-based kobolds on the map.  They would have shown up as orange circles.  There's one flying kobold in the top right, but it doesn't make it anywhere near the core and also should target the north core while it's the south one that explodes.  The straight line from the south core through the top left wall doesn't coincide with the lane, so I doubt any spear thrower on that lane could have accidentally hit the core even if it had the range.  It can be seen from the minimap that no enemies even make it to the walls, much less past them, so wall placement is not the problem here.

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@tdb quote:

There weren't any exploding ground-based kobolds on the map.  They would have shown up as orange circles.  There's one flying kobold in the top right, but it doesn't make it anywhere near the core and also should target the north core while it's the south one that explodes.  The straight line from the south core through the top left wall doesn't coincide with the lane, so I doubt any spear thrower on that lane could have accidentally hit the core even if it had the range.  It can be seen from the minimap that no enemies even make it to the walls, much less past them, so wall placement is not the problem here.

Very good point there. I hadn't in mind that bomber are orange on the minimap. I am really clueless then...

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I think that monsters can attack crystal from under the bridge, where the monster stand at 0:30 (you can see the frostbite tower shooting at him).

Try to place your towers a bit further, near the stairs, or at the first bridge near spawn.

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is your blockade under the bridge for that low lane? I figured it out, it is :)

I am pretty sure this is what happened:

  1. Your frostbite froze an enemy (this depends on you using the freeze shard), after the freeze effect monsters will attack the closest or biggest agro target.
  2. Another ranged enemy was standing far back from the blockade under the bridge shooting it
  3. The enemy that was frozen had to pick an agro target, somehow due to its distance from the blockade the Core won the "agro fight". This monster was a ranged monster.
  4. RIP.

Your core was destroyed by either a spear thrower or dark mage shooting through terrain and hitting your core.


The solution to that lane. 

  • Do not freeze or block or CC in general monsters within range of a core. 
  • Build your blockade directly after the bend in the lane just outside the spawn on that lower lane (not recommended). 
  • Build at the bottom of the last flight of steps way up the lane on your way to the core (where i build). 
  • Have no CC effects or damage on the monsters until they are up the first flight of steps after the bridge.

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@Zimmermann quote:

Your core was destroyed by either a spear thrower or dark mage shooting through terrain and hitting your core.

Ugh, this is stupid.  I don't get how can this game be so full of bugs after being in development for so long.

  • Build at the bottom of the last flight of steps way up the lane on your way to the core (where i build). 
  • Have no CC effects or damage on the monsters until they are up the first flight of steps after the bridge.

I did this and still had my core explode.

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@tdb quote:
@Zimmermann quote:

Your core was destroyed by either a spear thrower or dark mage shooting through terrain and hitting your core.

Ugh, this is stupid.  I don't get how can this game be so full of bugs after being in development for so long.

  • Build at the bottom of the last flight of steps way up the lane on your way to the core (where i build). 
  • Have no CC effects or damage on the monsters until they are up the first flight of steps after the bridge.

I did this and still had my core explode.

where did you defend the lane that goes over the bridge? both lanes are a big problem. in fact 3 lanes on that map can cause huge issues. 

Top right lane can spawn skeletons that fall of the lane and go straight for the north core. The two lanes that go to the south core have issues due to the proximity of the core to both lanes, but I have found solutions that have not let me down in a few weeks.

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@Zimmermann quote:

where did you defend the lane that goes over the bridge?

Initially, just after the bridge.  Then I figured a spear thrower might have hit the core from the bridge and built my wall on the bridge.  The setup included a reflect beam so anything on the bridge shouldn't have been able to hit the core, and the parts of the path before the bridge should be too far away.

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@tdb quote:
@Zimmermann quote:

where did you defend the lane that goes over the bridge?

Initially, just after the bridge.  Then I figured a spear thrower might have hit the core from the bridge and built my wall on the bridge.  The setup included a reflect beam so anything on the bridge shouldn't have been able to hit the core, and the parts of the path before the bridge should be too far away.

Firstly I am thinking that might be to close,  however can monsters under the bridge possibly get hit by your defenses? flamethrowers/frosties etc? basically ignore terrain or elevation (to an extent) just focus on if they are within range etc.

Another major issue i didn't even think about.. is your blockade within range of monsters under the bridge?

All you need is a dark night sitting and summoning under the bridge, then it chooses an agro target... starts shooting your blockade on the bridge.. causes a pile up behind it... spear throwers/dark nights behind it shoot your core.

The new AI means any monster that is blocked from obtaining its objective (walking towards your blockade or attacking your blockade) will have an idle time.. then find a new agro target.. usually your core or other defenses.. anything within its range.

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@Zimmermann quote:

Firstly I am thinking that might be to close,  however can monsters under the bridge possibly get hit by your defenses? flamethrowers/frosties etc? basically ignore terrain or elevation (to an extent) just focus on if they are within range etc.

Ignoring elevation differences, yes.  I thought ranges were spherical though?  The lane below the bridge should be too far down for defenses on the bridge to hit them.  I guess I'll have to try building before the bridge then.

All these obscure little mechanics would be more befitting of a puzzle game, not an action game.

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@Zimmermann quote:
  1. Your frostbite froze an enemy (this depends on you using the freeze shard), after the freeze effect monsters will attack the closest or biggest agro target.

Yes I do use the freeze shard and I think that the current frozen enemy was a witherbeast. I think you can see the purple glow in the video. However, if the frost CC'd a melee enemy then I see no way how they could hit the core, even if they could punch through walls.

Lets say that a speerthrower or a different ranged unit got CC'd. They would need to be able to attack through walls to get to the core. They had no vision to the core at all. And even if they could, I think that the core can survive one single javeline and I would have got a "core under attack" message. But the core exploded IMMEDIATELY. It is a mystery. I always build the down left line like that and I never got that problem. So I am not even sure if the lane is the cause of the defeat.


Edit:

Why did someone dislike my video, geez...

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@tdb quote:
@Zimmermann quote:

Firstly I am thinking that might be to close,  however can monsters under the bridge possibly get hit by your defenses? flamethrowers/frosties etc? basically ignore terrain or elevation (to an extent) just focus on if they are within range etc.

Ignoring elevation differences, yes.  I thought ranges were spherical though?  The lane below the bridge should be too far down for defenses on the bridge to hit them.  I guess I'll have to try building before the bridge then.

All these obscure little mechanics would be more befitting of a puzzle game, not an action game.

mate its a ***ing mine field and drove me utterly mad when i was progressing.. i had no idea how to avoid this crap... I just ground out maps failing more then 50% of the time to this idiotic crap. What made it worse... i couldn't defend in better spots because my defenses were just to weak... i had to choose the best terrain for my defenses.. which happened to increase RNG ranged attacks on my core. I have not screamed at my monitor that much since raiding in world of warcraft.

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@LuDeRu quote:


@Zimmermann quote:
  1. Your frostbite froze an enemy (this depends on you using the freeze shard), after the freeze effect monsters will attack the closest or biggest agro target.

Yes I do use the freeze shard and I think that the current frozen enemy was a witherbeast. I think you can see the purple glow in the video. However, if the frost CC'd a melee enemy then I see no way how they could hit the core, even if they could punch through walls.

Lets say that a speerthrower or a different ranged unit got CC'd. They would need to be able to attack through walls to get to the core. They had no vision to the core at all. And even if they could, I think that the core can survive one single javeline and I would have got a "core under attack" message. But the core exploded IMMEDIATELY. It is a mystery. I always build the down left line like that and I never got that problem. So I am not even sure if the lane is the cause of the defeat.


Edit:

Why did someone dislike my video, geez...

I am 99% sure the lane is the cause, and yeah monsters shooting through terrain is a big issue. To be honest with you it could even simply be a group of ranged monsters having some kind of agro issue due to the lane being semi blocked for whatever reason (frozen enemy's or ranged monsters in front of them) that caused them to randomly agro the core.

If you check your mini map you can see a group of about 3 enemies randomly stop way before your blockade.. then you core dies. I am pretty sure it was that group that was the cause of it.

PS check mine and tdb's discussion, I lay out my findings so far on how agro seems to be working in my experiences. again this is just my experience so its not exactly a water tight argument.

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@tdb quote:

All these obscure little mechanics would be more befitting of a puzzle game, not an action game.

Lol, you don't know how Trendy rolls then.

Did you know in DD1 that if you had a really high DPS tower behind a wall that deals no damage, ogres just walk into the wall without attacking trying to get to it? Aggro AI is insanely complicated, and Trendy makes some interesting ones.

But I guess that's expected when there are so few games that need an AI like theirs. I can't even think of any other game that uses a system like theirs (most seem to use blocks for easy pathing quanitization and collision, or just no repairable walls/defenses).

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Most common reason I've seen this happen is from mobs glitching through the terrain(mostly bridges or map with bridges) and bypassing the walls and towers. 

I wish I was recording it once, when a small little goblin glitched through my walls under a bridge and re-emerged right at the core and destroyed it while I looked at it helplessly.

I've also had a Griblock phase through a wall right in front of me while I desperately tried to CC and DPS his 2.5M HP . This was the last round. No other mob phased or glitched through that wall for 5 rounds. 50 mobs left, and that little c--t just went and smashed the shizu out of it -_- 

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@Elyssae quote:

Most common reason I've seen this happen is from mobs glitching through the terrain(mostly bridges or map with bridges) and bypassing the walls and towers. 

I wish I was recording it once, when a small little goblin glitched through my walls under a bridge and re-emerged right at the core and destroyed it while I looked at it helplessly.

I've also had a Griblock phase through a wall right in front of me while I desperately tried to CC and DPS his 2.5M HP . This was the last round. No other mob phased or glitched through that wall for 5 rounds. 50 mobs left, and that little c--t just went and smashed the shizu out of it -_- 

The strange thing is that the core exploded immediately. If it gets attacked it shows the warning message but it got destroyed in 1 hit. And I am pretty sure that the little glitchy skeletons can't 1hit the core even if c5.


I am also not sure if a single javelin can 1 shot it. If someone could confirm this, that would be nice. 

If javelins 1 shot the core, then the theory of @Zimmermann makes sense. If not, then I would have got the warning message slightly before the defeat screen and not within it. Even if the second javelin just hit milliseconds after.

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If you watch the video on really slow mode, is there a whitish-purple beam that comes from the short lane where you are? Possibly a geode popped up and reflected your shot maybe? Because of latency, the server could have the geode spawn back in the hole out of your line of sight, and it could reflect the shot before you even see the shield.

Geodes sometimes pop up even when they are not supposed to, so I changed that lane to fissure + LSA + sandtrap + flame throwers and stay away from it. I pretty much stopped using any projectile tower or projectile hero (though can do some alt range attacks when I know it is safe), and have not lost any games mysteriously in a while.

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