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[Help] Best Relic for Ramster


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I stand by my assertion that Medallions always provide the most DPS when compared to equivalent relics of other types, with no exception. At least I haven't been able to find any exceptions so far.


Someone was saying that, for Ramsters, Orbs provide the most DPS and Totems are second. I've not been able to verify this myself. All of my in-game testing and calculations I've performed show that Medallions give more DPS than Orbs or Totems.


So here's what I know:

  • Base Attack Rate is 3.0s
  • Defense Rate shard subtracts 25% of the Base Attack Rate - It is not a buff to the Defense Speed stat. This how Defense Rate is able to break the Defense Speed cap on defenses that do have speed caps.
  • A perfect C5 Relic has 11,526 Primary Stat.
  • Secondary Stats are 5/12 of the Primary Stat.
  • Orbs have 75% of the Primary Stat of other Relic types
  • A Tier 5 Ramster gains 8.4 damage per Defense Power stat.


I'm going to ignore Defense Power and Defense Crit Damage ascension for simplicity. I will include the 200 Defense Speed from Ascension, and the Crit Chance, because those are easy to max.

So based on these facts, a perfect C5 Medallion with Speed & Health would have...

  • Defense Power is 11,526 from Medallion Primary Stat + 200 Base DP, +34% from Destruction = 15,712.84 DP
  • At 8.4 damage per DP, that's 131,987.856 damage per hit.
  • Add the base Crit damage * chance: 131,987.856 + 5,880 * 0.23 = 133,340.256
  • Base Attack Rate = 2.25 (with Defense Rate equipped)
  • 4,803 Defense Speed from Medallion's Secondary Stat + 200 Defense Speed from Ascension + 3000 base Defense Speed of the tower = 8,003 total Defense Speed
  • To calculate the attack rate, invert the Base Attack Rate (1/2.25 = 0.444...), multiply by the total Defense Speed / base defense speed (1/2.25) * 8003 / 3000 = 1.185629... attacks per second. You have to invert it again to get back to Attack Rate: 0.8434...s
  • Divide damage per hit by the modified Attack Rate: 133,340.256 / 0.8434... = 158,092.16

So a maxed out C5 Medallion, using up only 2 out of 3 Shard slots, you get 158,092 DPS


A maxed C5 Orb with Defense Rate + Vampiric Empowerment + Destruction:

  • Defense Power 200 base + 3,001 from Vampiric Empowerment + 4,803 from the Orb's Secondary Stat = 8,004
  • Destruction shard adds 34%... 10,725.36 total DP
  • Damage per hit = 10,725.36 * 8.4 + 5,880 * 0.23 = 91,445.424
  • Base Attack Rate is 2.25
  • Defense Speed is 8,645 from Orb's Primary Stat + 200 from Ascension + 3000 base Defense Speed = 11,845 total Defense Speed
  • Final Attack Rate is (2.25 ^ -1 * 11845 / 3000) ^ -1 = 0.56986....
  • Divide damage by modified attack rate: 91,445.424 / 0.56986... = 160,469.78

So a maxed out C5 Orb, using up all 3 shard slots, you get 160,470 DPS.


The orb is 1.5% higher DPS, but uses up all 3 shard slots. The Medallion is only using up 2 out of 3 slots, which leaves you with options

  1. Deadly Strikes for much more lane coverage which would definitely come out to more than 1.5% higher damage output
  2. Vampiric Empowerment on it to bring the DPS up to 193,878... 20% higher than the Orb.
  3. ...Or something else? 
The point is, the Medallion is almost the same DPS as the Orb but with an extra free open shard slot that you can do whatever you want with.


Am I missing something? Is there a better Shard combo to use on an Orb than Rate + Vamp + Destruction?

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You're not missing anything. Medallions are the only relevant relic for damage towers, and totems are the only relevant relic for walls. Marks and orbs are sub-par in almost every way.

Not to say that they'll never be relevant, so I'd still hang on to the good ones, but whoever said orbs are better is full of bologna.

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If you use Orbs with ramsters, you need def crit and def p secondary stats together, the orbs with crit damage makes orbs go beyond medallion dps, IF you add a lot of asc points on ramster damage.

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I can give an example:
Medallion with vamp destruction and range(Speed and hp secondary obviously) == 100k dps
Orb with Range, Destruction and Rate(Def P and Def crit) == 121k dps

Same hero but has 100 asc points on ramster damage.

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@gigazelle quote:

You're not missing anything. Medallions are the only relevant relic for damage towers, and totems are the only relevant relic for walls. Marks and orbs are sub-par in almost every way.

Not to say that they'll never be relevant, so I'd still hang on to the good ones, but whoever said orbs are better is full of bologna.

Numerically speaking, if the tower has no speed cap (like my poor geysers...), at some ascension level, with a certain number of point into that towers bonus DP and/or DCrit... THEORETICALLY... Orbs should eventually outscale.

But at that point who cares anyways? Death is Death.

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@xArcAngel quote:

Numerically speaking, if the tower has no speed cap (like my poor geysers...), at some ascension level, with a certain number of point into that towers bonus DP and/or DCrit... THEORETICALLY... Orbs should eventually outscale.

But at that point who cares anyways? Death is Death.

That's a really good point. Do we know which defenses are speed capped? I know for a fact geyser is at 5.5 seconds, but I don't know any others.

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@gigazelle quote:
@xArcAngel quote:

Numerically speaking, if the tower has no speed cap (like my poor geysers...), at some ascension level, with a certain number of point into that towers bonus DP and/or DCrit... THEORETICALLY... Orbs should eventually outscale.

But at that point who cares anyways? Death is Death.

That's a really good point. Do we know which defenses are speed capped? I know for a fact geyser is at 5.5 seconds, but I don't know any others.

Flamethrowers are speed capped at 0.2 sec if I remember right.

Maws are capped a 6.0 sec

Flame auras are .2 sec as well I think?

Past that not honestly sure.

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@Ubara-tutu quote:

I use orbs on Frosties...

erm why? do you have some evidence of the beam casting faster and freezing quicker by using an orb? 

From my experience rate/speed has no effect, but I will only do any real tests once they no longer insta freeze assassins, as right now I don't even use the freeze shard.

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I use dp/ds totem for skyguards with attack speed shard, destruction and vampiric when I play with 3 more players.... they can stand probable hits from flying kobolds... very relevant monk_small.png


@gigazelle quote:

You're not missing anything. Medallions are the only relevant relic for damage towers, and totems are the only relevant relic for walls. Marks and orbs are sub-par in almost every way.

Not to say that they'll never be relevant, so I'd still hang on to the good ones, but whoever said orbs are better is full of bologna.


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@xArcAngel quote:

Numerically speaking, if the tower has no speed cap (like my poor geysers...), at some ascension level, with a certain number of point into that towers bonus DP and/or DCrit... THEORETICALLY... Orbs should eventually outscale.

But at that point who cares anyways? Death is Death.

That's not true. Defense Speed and Defense Power both infinitely scale linearly (if a defense has no speed cap). If Speed can't outscale Power with low values, it cannot out scale Power at high values.

I could show the math if you want but I didn't want to put everyone into a coma.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

That's not true. Defense Speed and Defense Power both infinitely scale linearly (if a defense has no speed cap). If Speed can't outscale Power with low values, it cannot out scale Power at high values.

I could show the math if you want but I didn't want to put everyone into a coma.

let's say medallion has 10k DP and 4k DS.

Orb has 7k DS and 4k DP

^ This is pretty close to correct values.


Now if we get 20k DP from ascension and 50k crit dmg, i'm fairly sure the 7k DS 4k DP orb will outscale 10k DP 4k DS medallion, if there is no speed cap. you need to keep in mind we can get crazy high amount of DP and crit dmg from ascension, compared to the speed which is capped at +200.

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@xArcAngel quote:

Flamethrowers are speed capped at 0.2 sec if I remember right.

Maws are capped a 6.0 sec

Flame auras are .2 sec as well I think?

Past that not honestly sure.

Flamethrowers - you are correct - 0.2s

Maws - I didn't even know they had a cap, but I don't use them

Flame Auras - 0.2 would be a reasonable cap, right? Well Trendy isn't reasonable. These are actually capped at 0.75s.


Training Dummies have a 0.4s cap

Fissure of Embermount - I believe this has a 1s cap - it is unaffected by speed.

Serpent's Coil - 1s cap - unaffected by speed


I don't know about other caps, I do not have a perfect c5 legendary Orb to test out more defenses. If anyone does have one, it would be great if you could help me fill out the Attack Rate Cap column in my Defense Stats Sheet

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@Slagk quote:
@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

That's not true. Defense Speed and Defense Power both infinitely scale linearly (if a defense has no speed cap). If Speed can't outscale Power with low values, it cannot out scale Power at high values.

I could show the math if you want but I didn't want to put everyone into a coma.

let's say medallion has 10k DP and 4k DS.

Orb has 7k DS and 4k DP

^ This is pretty close to correct values.


Now if we get 20k DP from ascension and 50k crit dmg, i'm fairly sure the 7k DS 4k DP orb will outscale 10k DP 4k DS medallion, if there is no speed cap. you need to keep in mind we can get crazy high amount of DP and crit dmg from ascension, compared to the speed which is capped at +200.

I guess ascension makes everything weird.

Ascension is going to have to change. By the time C6 comes out there are going to be people close, if not at, the Defense Power ascension cap. C6 is either going to be a cakewalk for them, or impossible for everyone else.

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from my data (using C5 max gear), higher to lower dps

medal with attack speed and defense HP  with destruction+range+ vamp. give the highest dps.

medal with attack speed and crit power with destruction +range+ crit chance/atk speed. give the 2nd best dps

Orb with defense power+crit power with destruction +range + atk speed give 3rd best.


i personally love the orb because it funny. they are cute little machine guns of death


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Ok so IF Proton Beam has no speed cap, the tipping point is at ascension level 548 when a max C5 Orb with DP & DCD begins to out perform a max Medallion with DCD & DS.


But this is with no shards & DH + Vamp is more damage than DCD, so I'm not saying for sure that is the point that it becomes better, but it proves that Orbs actually can be better than Medallions at high ascension. 


All defenses faster than Proton Beam I know do have caps, so Proton is the 1st defense that potentially can be better with an Orb. All other defenses will take longer for Orbs to be better because speed scales better on faster defenses than it does on slow defenses.


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@Zimmermann quote:


@Ubara-tutu quote:

I use orbs on Frosties...

erm why? do you have some evidence of the beam casting faster and freezing quicker by using an orb? 

From my experience rate/speed has no effect, but I will only do any real tests once they no longer insta freeze assassins, as right now I don't even use the freeze shard.

Only because there are only DS and DH specs on the frosties. I could use a totem as well, but I need to do something with the really nice orbs I get and DH doesn't (AFAIK) boost any attack spec at all.

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Orbs are more for if you want to apply status effect things like Oil Geysers, Geyser Traps or Snaking Sands or you are using something with a chance to stun or drench on hit and you want use the effect as a priority over damage. The only reason you would want to Orb a Ramster is if you attach Water Elemental to it and you have the means to Electrocute them.

Marks are overall pretty terrible as you can get the same effects from a Medallion and that always applies every hit. 

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@Ubara-tutu quote:
@Zimmermann quote:


@Ubara-tutu quote:

I use orbs on Frosties...

erm why? do you have some evidence of the beam casting faster and freezing quicker by using an orb? 

From my experience rate/speed has no effect, but I will only do any real tests once they no longer insta freeze assassins, as right now I don't even use the freeze shard.

Only because there are only DS and DH specs on the frosties. I could use a totem as well, but I need to do something with the really nice orbs I get and DH doesn't (AFAIK) boost any attack spec at all.

There are no visiable DS stats on Frosties though?

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I tried reading through most posts but from what I read, I don't see any of you really considering how crit works and that is the reason why orb is better.
Crit in DD2 is NOT a % chance to hit % more damage on an enemy % based off the base damage, but many of you all already know that.
Crit is a whole damage number on its own, a second base damage if I can put it that way, which obviously means==> with orb -> more chances PER SECOND to hit a crit - hitting a big load of damage that has nothing to do with the base damage, whilst medallion will always be slower and wont hit many crits per seconds hypothetically speaking.

SO Orb is better in dungeon defenders 2 cause of CRIT
But it wouldn't have been if it was like most common games where crit = base damage * %crit damage.

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and who whoever said totems are good for ramsters, lol he was probably joking like a lot of people would -> give false information on purpose

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With less than 200 ascension levels i think medallion is better than orb, using these stats.

Medallion: DP, DS, DCD, shards destruction, rate, range

Orb: DS, DP, DCD, shards destruction (or whatever you think is better in this case), rate, range


I can't test that right now but if you would i like to hear results, i'm fairly sure the orb has no chance of beating medallion without high ascension and alot of flat DP and flat crit from those points

@Exo dus

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@Slagk quote:

With less than 200 ascension levels i think medallion is better than orb, using these stats.

Medallion: DP, DS, DCD, shards destruction, rate, range

Orb: DS, DP, DCD, shards destruction (or whatever you think is better in this case), rate, range


I can't test that right now but if you would i like to hear results, i'm fairly sure the orb has no chance of beating medallion without high ascension and alot of flat DP and flat crit from those points

@Exo dus

I used your recomendations with that medallion and orb with those exact shards.
To make one thing clear I didnt put much effort in working it out perfectly but this is roughly correct cause having to calculate crit points takes more effort so assump crit points in asc goes up at same time as p def on ramsters.
This is the result: 0 Asc points -> Orb: 71k DPS, Medallion 109k DPS
                                                                               an increase of 54% damage,
                               110 asc points(mine atm) -> Orb 125k dps, Medallion 145k DPS
                                                                               an increase of 16% damage.
From rough calculations every 2.8 (rounded number) asc points in ramster def p, your orb becomes 1% better and closer to medallion THAT MEANS, when you have 157 points into Ramster P def, your medal and orb will be exactly the same(not exactly orb will be unnotibly stronger, but after that 157 every 3 points the orb will become 1% stronger than what medallion would have been

(This calculation I did fast so this might be wrong as well, but its still on the right track)
so When you are at 999 points in Ramster P Def (if that will ever happen in your life time) your Orb ramster will be 291% stronger than your Medallion Ramster( just to make it clear both have 999 points in ramster Pdef and the (same amount minus crit chance for Def Crit D))

 

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@Exo dus quote:

I tried reading through most posts but from what I read, I don't see any of you really considering how crit works and that is the reason why orb is better.
Crit in DD2 is NOT a % chance to hit % more damage on an enemy % based off the base damage, but many of you all already know that.
Crit is a whole damage number on its own, a second base damage if I can put it that way, which obviously means==> with orb -> more chances PER SECOND to hit a crit - hitting a big load of damage that has nothing to do with the base damage, whilst medallion will always be slower and wont hit many crits per seconds hypothetically speaking.

SO Orb is better in dungeon defenders 2 cause of CRIT
But it wouldn't have been if it was like most common games where crit = base damage * %crit damage.

and sorry in this post I forgot to mention only at a certain Ascension level it will be stronger and from the calculations that level is 471

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@Exo dus quote:

I tried reading through most posts but from what I read, I don't see any of you really considering how crit works and that is the reason why orb is better.
Crit in DD2 is NOT a % chance to hit % more damage on an enemy % based off the base damage, but many of you all already know that.
Crit is a whole damage number on its own, a second base damage if I can put it that way, which obviously means==> with orb -> more chances PER SECOND to hit a crit - hitting a big load of damage that has nothing to do with the base damage, whilst medallion will always be slower and wont hit many crits per seconds hypothetically speaking.

SO Orb is better in dungeon defenders 2 cause of CRIT
But it wouldn't have been if it was like most common games where crit = base damage * %crit damage.

Every defense (except for Obelisk & Reflect Beam) either scales identically with DCD and DP, or scales better with DP than DCD, but crit only has 23% chance (38 with Critical Strikes shard), so it IS a % chance to hit % more damage. On a medallion, crit is 41.67% of the DP. Since they scale the same, it's 23% chance to add 41.67% more DP.

On a Mark it's 23% chance to add 240% more DP.

On an Orb it's 23% chance to add 100% more DP.


The only reason why Orbs can have more DPS than Relics is if you're getting so much damage out of Ascension that the sacrificing damage on your Relic doesn't matter.

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