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R-Kane

[Problem] Review of hero viability in the end game

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Here is my take on what's viable and what's not. I think many will agree with me on a lot of these points and the purpose here is to highlight a problem that I see in the current game design due to the nerfs to many of the heros as well as the worst character design I've ever seen: The Assassin.

I talk a lot about viability. Most of the flaws of each class can only be seen in C5, some in C4.

My issue is that by the very nature of the current games balance, there are very few choices available to us in this mode of play. Here is why:


General:

ALL Traps & Auras hard countered by orcs so NONE of them will ever be used against clusters of mobs. The very concept of the Huntress, Monk & EV heros are now, on the whole, utterly useless. Don't mention PDT & SGT here. I'm talking about their intended playstyle.

The fissure of lavamancer is required for him to play. Fissures are trash. Ergo Nobody plays lavamancer. So he's never played.

Many of the dryads defenses have potential but only when in corrupt form and it's impossible to play the class viably due to crap shard choices & idiot assassins.

Gunwitch has no defenses and no survivability. Completely unviable as a hero damage class in C5 as assassins are just too much for even a decently geared one. Same logic applies to EV and to some extent squire, huntress and apprentice.

Gunwitch cannot cope with 8 assassins at once so she's another deadweight class in c5, much to my annoyance as it's easy to pump out 1.5kk dps (But not if perma stunned with no survivability)

So from all of the above mentioned classes:


Huntress + Monk + Ev + Lavamancer + Dryad + Gunwitch + Apprentice + Squire = 8 Heroes:

PDT + SGT + Maw of Embermount + Spike Blockade + Flamethrower + Arcane Barrier + Frost Tower


Only these 7 are actually viable, 3 of them being apprentice defenses

So really, in 7 heroes, only 3 defenses can actually be used viably in C5.

Is it any wonder why people whine about balance and point out cookie cutter builds when you leave us no option?

I may come back to finish up the following but I'm currently getting really bored of DD2 now especially with the problems that still plague it so who knows:

Squire:
(Only ever used for Blockade)
  1. Cannonball Tower: Used to be brilliant! Now utter crap. Current potential only as cc turret:
  2. Spike Blockade:
  3. Ballista: Utter trash. Current potential as CC turret but at 60 DU it's utter trash
  4. Training dummy: Utter trash has alwasy been utter trash. No change here. It's a joke defense.


Huntress:

(Lack of sustain means cannot be used C5)

(Only ever used for PDT)

  1. Explosive trap: Used to be okay. Now trash. Wouldn't waste time putting them down if they GAVE me DU
  2. Geyser Trap: Used to be one of my favourites. Now utter crap. Monks electric aura reworked, nimbus no longer worth 50 DU let alone 100 + need to be corrupt for lightning damage and since the only sources of making this somewhat viable are 2 shards in the chest piece it's actually not viable since you can't survive without 40% armor increase. On top of that, orcs can
  3. PDT
  4. Blaze Balloon: Used to be great. Now sucks & countered


The Apprentice: (IMO: 1 of 2 FUNCTIONING hero's)

(Potential with shard that shields but very squishy and outshone by other classes)

  1. Flamethrower Tower
  2. Arcane Barrier
  3. Frostbite Tower
  4. Earthshatter Tower


Monk:

(Only used for SGT) (Potential for C5 due to heal and high hp)

  1. Flame Aura: Trash. Trash damage, easily countered. Wouldn't waste time putting them down if they GAVE me DU
  2. Boost Aura: Used to be good. Now trash. Explosive ripples shard is trash. Better to just have +1 PDT / FT
  3. Sky Guard Tower: Used to be trash. Now it's the only thing that can reliably take care of Air. It's still trash.
  4. Lightning Strikes Aura: Used to be good. Now it's trash. Not worth the DU if it cost 20


The Abyss Lord: (IMO: 2/2 FUNCTIONING hero's)

(The sustain + stun makes him the only viable class for C5)

  1. Skeletal Orc:
  2. Ramster
  3. Skeletal Archer: Used to be good. Potential to be on par with FT/RAM. No where near PDT though
  4. Colossus: Cool but trash. Not wide enough to cost 100 DU.


Series EV:

(Nothing to offer AT ALL)

  1. Proton Beam: Total trash. Used to be amazing.
  2. Reflect Beam: Total trash. Spears still bug through them causing damage. Not worth the DU
  3. Buff Beam: Total trash. Used to be worth it.
  4. Weapon Manufacturer. Potential but the cost in DU makes it trash


Gunwitch:

(Can't be used C5+)


Lavamancer:

(Can't be used unless Fissure is out. Fissure is trash ergo won't be used)

  1. Fissure of Embermount: Trash inside of trash.
  2. Maw of the Earth Drake: In a perfect spot imo
  3. Oil Geyser: Trash. Too easily hard countered and cannot be used as intended
  4. Volcano: Trash.


Mystic: (Potential to outdps AL & Apprentice BUT ONLY IF PLAYED)

  1. Snaking Sands: Amazing. Only viable trap in the game right now
  2. Sand Viper
  3. Viper's Fangs
  4. Obelisk


Dryad:

(Completely outshone by all other classes defenses)

(Might have niche potential if it could even be played in C5 viably)

  1. Moss Hornet's Nest
  2. Harpy's Perch
  3. Slime Pit
  4. Angry Nimbus



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The problem with any kind of post like this is that Trendy is just going to tell you that Chaos 5 is not the end game. There's more coming.

In Chaos 6 Apprentice might be completely countered and Traps will work best. Who knows

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Sorry @R-Kane, gonna have to disagree.

Lavamancer is actually really good. His fissures do great, if you know how to use them as defense.

My 2 HD EV has 7K armor & 41K HP& my AP EV2 has 10K armor & 50K HP. Both withstand assassins pretty good. AP EV2 melts mobs fast with #3. If an assassin get on me, I have enough armor to go where I need to get them off... My HD EV2 has a really good auto attack setup, just add Poison tips & it's even better. Always mobile with her. So, it's easy enough to go were I need to get assassins off.

Dryad defenses are still good and viable (even after her major nerf) even in pure form. Just gotta build them right. Her passives/shards are good, just gotta use the right  ones.Some boost her pure forms, others boost her corrupt form.

GW I rarely use. But I have seen good reviews for her in ch5. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, I just don't understand why you are having a hard time knowing how good these heroes are.

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@Skyaliciouse quote:

Everything is good with 50 points in gambit & range. But there are some niche towers that don't need the gambit or range to be good

I tried to make slimes and hornets good. Since i have like 6 or 7 dryads i have no shortage of ascension points to test with :P

I can proudly say even at 400 ascension those 2 towers are generally worthless.

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like all the other before me, i kinda have to totaly disagree with what you wrote here. It's wrong on so many levels.

When it comes to builds, i never have seen much more diverese builds in the current state of the game, then ever before. That is not a lie that is really the simple truth and its in Chaos 5. 

There are some easier to use towers liek skyaliciouse says but overall nearly everything goes, same for heroes.

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They need to bring back the bowling ball turrets from DD1 for the Squire. That would solve a lot of issues as it provides a nice form of AOE by rolling or bouncing through multiple targets. MAKE IT HAPPEN :D

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@Skyaliciouse quote:




Dryad:

Haven't tried making her dps as AP or HD good yet.

  1. Moss Hornet's Nest: really strong with a 50gambit + 50range shard. spam nests ! :) all about the placements
  2. Harpy's Perch: some visual bugs going on with the tooltip and actual/exact/approximate damage on dummies. Prefer utility over damage always so even if it did 2mill damage, I'd most likely use AA.
  3. Slime Pit: has always been better than hornet's nests...
  4. Angry Nimbus: would be a nice niche with nests & fissures because both of those towers have a thing where they have a thing where only X amount of fissure/Bees can hit 1 single target at the same time or maybe a combination of both nests + fissures + nimbus would be good. 


Overall, range shard needs to drop more often and getting the ascension level for 50 gambit should be easier. Aafter that ascension levels can be the grindy endless grind people want.

My hornets ended up at like 70k dps with 3 good shards. So with range shard your looking at 50-60k ? One flamethrower will do 3x that much aoe. (Use defense health and vampiric so they don't die)

And lets not forget the tree you have to pay for making the DU even costlier.

Maybe with the range shard and if you place it in some amazing spot on a tiny map and boost it and have CC in all the lanes so 1 nest really gets maximum value it could be acceptable. But i would say in general its pretty bad and needs a decent size dps buff. 


Harpys tooltip refers to the total damage including the 1 extra pierce so its double the actual single target dps. Since most things don't line up perfectly and it takes weird breaks its actually very low dps tower.


Slime pit again did like 70ish  per slime ball. They spawn rather slowly and get lost easily. I figure the actual DPS on it is maybe 70k but probably lower. Range doesn't seem to help much since the AI will get stuck or fall off somewhere.

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I'm sorry but a lot of things are highly inaccurate. Fissure are trash?

In my experience all heroes are usable, with more than 45-50k Heealth you can do just fine. Get one or two HH piece and you're fine. 

And geez, I'm not going to point out everything that is incorrect, as there are too many.

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@paradiselost quote:

Join my game some time and I'll be happy to show you how awesome fissures are.  Frankly, I am afraid they are on the soon to be nerfed list. 

Ive seen people play them... honestly im not a fan... but they are pretty good right now 8)

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Well damn! Many people seem to disagree with me....


Good!


If any of you are willing to add me and show me how you use something I consider trash then I'd be really interested to see how it's used.


As for the rest, please feel free to add your own comments, this has turned out to be surprisingly positive xD



@krsans78 quote:

I didn't read your whole post. I noticed you said fissures are trash, and I stopped reading...

@Zimmermann quote:

this post is so far off the mark I don't know where to begin. Thumbs down, Sorry buddy.

I'll try these out again with the same trinket and ascension allocation as FT'S / PDT'S and reassess my opinion then.



@MushroomCake28 quote:

And geez, I'm not going to point out everything that is incorrect, as there are too many.

Well actually, if you wouldn't mind taking the time to do so, I'd appreciate it. :)


@dreamanime quote:


When it comes to builds, i never have seen much more diverese builds in the current state of the game, then ever before. That is not a lie that is really the simple truth and its in Chaos 5.


Care to share?




If anyone has discord and would find it easier to debate / communicate / show me their builds on that then feel free to PM me with your name#number

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@Skyaliciouse quote:


@theProdigy quote:

They need to bring back the bowling ball turrets from DD1 for the Squire. That would solve a lot of issues as it provides a nice form of AOE by rolling or bouncing through multiple targets. MAKE IT HAPPEN :D

Joke: Maybe because you can't have nice things when you get older, Emoji_Squire.pngsquire_small.png (get it? because squire is older now...)

Make the Squire young again! Or ya know... At least his towers :D

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I could see some of the points being valid prior to C5... But once your C5 geared.. Like a bunch of them mentioned you can almost use any tower . 


Off note.  Everyone mentioned using the range gambit..  Is the lose of 1500 DP worth the increase?

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Most of these disagrees seem to be coming from geared people who are already capable of AFKing C5 with the current meta.


The game as it is is really lopsided in terms of loot.  The difference between having the correct shards and gear is absolutely insane, really.

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Btw just to point out:


most of these people only do sewers and have full gear.


Sewer assassins are EASY compared to some of the other maps.


In addition, I would argue anyone that says playing GW in C5 is good. A GW that can't use abilities is a DEAD GW

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No one really mentions that mystics heal costs 30 du vs pretrials it was free. It is a very strong heal, but they need to make it free again or give mystics some type of heal that doesn't cost DU.

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@R-Kane quote:
@dreamanime quote:


When it comes to builds, i never have seen much more diverese builds in the current state of the game, then ever before. That is not a lie that is really the simple truth and its in Chaos 5.


Care to share?

  • Dreamanime's main build is Fissure Frosty Power (at least a few days back), he also had a nimbus, volcano, fissure build.
  • My main build is Fire Auras Frosty Power with Sky Guard Tower as AA
  • Sidewalkhero never does the same thing... he loves cannonballs with the CC shards.
  • I have seen one guy who clears C5 with just Lightning Strike Auras
  • Many players use Flamethrowers, that is evolving to PDT (needs a nerf by what I am hearing)
  • Nimbus is apparently really strong and many use them also.
  • Ramsters was another build that a lot of players used in the early game.

I will agree some towers are over used and a bit to strong either in damage or for their DU cost, like PDT and sand traps.

I know there are many many other builds, and have never joined a public game thus far (created a couple), so this is all i have learned via stream and talking with friends about there current build. Tell me build diversity is not far superior to that of NM4.

Another point, ascension levels make all towers viable, but they also potentially and in time make all content AFK'able so they are kind of bitter sweet.

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@Zimmermann quote:


@R-Kane quote:
@dreamanime quote:


When it comes to builds, i never have seen much more diverese builds in the current state of the game, then ever before. That is not a lie that is really the simple truth and its in Chaos 5.


Care to share?

  • Dreamanime's main build is Fissure Frosty Power (at least a few days back), he also had a nimbus, volcano, fissure build.
  • My main build is Fire Auras Frosty Power with Sky Guard Tower as AA
  • Sidewalkhero never does the same thing... he loves cannonballs with the CC shards.
  • I have seen one guy who clears C5 with just Lightning Strike Auras
  • Many players use Flamethrowers, that is evolving to PDT (needs a nerf by what I am hearing)
  • Nimbus is apparently really strong and many use them also.
  • Ramsters was another build that a lot of players used in the early game.

I will agree some towers are over used and a bit to strong either in damage or for their DU cost, like PDT and sand traps.

I know there are many many other builds, and have never joined a public game thus far (created a couple), so this is all i have learned via stream and talking with friends about there current build. Tell me build diversity is not far superior to that of NM4.

Let me add abit more to this.

For walls, i have seen any walls used, really all type of barricades someone used already in kinda any combination. Squire both spike and dummy, snake walls for bubbling, apprentice wall, lavamancer volcano or maw walls, abyss walls colo (in each lane yes) or oger walls, obelisk walls only (thats a own build in itself) and lastly even no walls build with different defenses! All that in C5.

Here a few more builds i have seen people complete, i have alot people where i hop in and kinda everyone has his own build. It's astonishing and no not everyone is actually high Ascension level, some where new to C5 too. What i agree fully on is that the drops decite kinda what you will play for certain shards make certain builds easier. But i think that is also a beauty then a curse here for it raises the different builds.

  • Maw+flame+frost+sg (from a new player entering nm4, worked very well)
  • colossus+archer
  • colossus+ramster+ss
  • obelisk+volcano ( <3 i did it around asc 150 or so, love it need better shards to be more effective, now asc 330+ and still searching shards :_D)
  • nimbus+volcano+ss+fissure (my no wall build when i play solo, do it rarely tho because alot join in could do it around asc 200 roughly, or more thats when i tested it)
  • flame+frosty+ss+sg (no wall build someone posted in here somewhere in forum with vid, high ascension needed tho and right shards)
  • pdt+frosty+ss (no wall build someone posted in here with vid in forum somewhere, high ascension needed tho and right shards)
  • dummies+flames+pdt (if you search for a meta, that is probably the closest to it)
  • viperwall+frosty+pdt (or flames)+sg+ss (this is a really strong build for breaking into c5 duo to huge cc vs assassins)
  • viperwall+sg (funny build works tho)
  • nimbus (only them yep with one tree and the hero buffing them up with radiance, someone in discord using it)
  • huntress traps (heard it only on discord but someone doing c5 apperiantly only with them, i actually not tested this one and not seen it personaly tho, but i can imagin it working with right placement)
  • Fissure+frosty+viper+sg+ss (quit a few using that one too, i did too at a time)
  • pdt+cannonball+spiked+ss

+ alot lot more.

And sure we can discord, gobu :D I am currently alot in the DD2 discord channel, i love to theorize and talk with others there. Feel free to join it too and you can feed the legion cookies then, gobu. We appreciate alot of cookies. 

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Are you even playing C5 ?

+ Dreamanime, if you got any news on HOW to use Traptress C5 it would make me so damn happy, cant imagine how we can manage to play em since the range gambit dont buff the trigger range

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@Bidru quote:

Are you even playing C5 ?

+ Dreamanime, if you got any news on HOW to use Traptress C5 it would make me so damn happy, cant imagine how we can manage to play em since the range gambit dont buff the trigger range

Huntress traps are useless. I tried to make them work but they suffer from target cap greatly. Blaze balloon has good range and damage with ascension + shards, but the 8 max target for 80DU kills the trap really hard.

Explosive traps also have a terrible range scaling (no detonation range + damage is lowered the further the monsters are from the trap).


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Abysslord Orcs are cool with a Totem DP/speed, Panic Fire, Sharpened Spike  ( the stun one) and Vampiric Empowerement, they do tons of damages and can stunlock if you place 2 per lane, this work with the colossus.

Archer are cool, i try to use it where they dont need Deadlystrike so i can add em more damages ( via Vampiric, Explosives Arrow or some Crit stuff) and play em in pack with Radiant power ( they scale very well with it) they kill assassin very, and with some health they dont care if some assassin cleave on em while your sitting on their skulls)

Did some C5 with cannonball and Ballista, you just need some shard for it, Ballista + some flamethrower is very fun and worth.

Monk Lightning strike aura scale oddly well with DP, i did a C5 with almost only this, put Orb on it, defense rate, some buff beam/monk boost flag and this overbalance the DP loss for good rate gain

Proton beam can be used, they get a good range so you can place them away from Orc

One of the thing i really cant understand how you manage to play with in C5 is Huntress traps.

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@NeedtoDie quote:


@Bidru quote:

Are you even playing C5 ?

+ Dreamanime, if you got any news on HOW to use Traptress C5 it would make me so damn happy, cant imagine how we can manage to play em since the range gambit dont buff the trigger range

Huntress traps are useless. I tried to make them work but they suffer from target cap greatly. Blaze balloon has good range and damage with ascension + shards, but the 8 max target for 80DU kills the trap really hard.

Explosive traps also have a terrible range scaling (no detonation range + damage is lowered the further the monsters are from the trap).


Yeah BlazeBalloon looks weak but im sure they can be great with frosty power, because they can still hit like a truck, i dont think the target cap of 8 is a problem, they would melt little gobelin in fews ticks so only big one stay alive, and anyway not for long, its more like how you manage them to not get hit by empOrc while fully using the range ? if not why it cost 80du for not having any scenario in which they can be usefull in C5

For Explosives ones, i think there range is all about, and deal with it only 8targets, but god they are worth 20du, let say you can go up to 0.62 rate, and i think about 150k+ ( didnt take the time to roll my ascension again, 200 is... alot) damages per boom, which is like 200K dps ( with 2-3frosty), and 200K dps aoe for 20du is absolutely worth, the only thing that i cant understand its how you use em ? near wall ? it suck... Frosty Tower wont even aim at Lady Orc (and buff em), and for single target killing well i prefer use some cannonball, Pdt, even flamethrower which got a good dmg/du for aoe tower or monk LSA which is the best tower for ST in the game imo, this range gambit is insane tho

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