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Mobs that counter towers, not fun. [Suggestion]


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It's gonna be a long one... I'll try to bullet point most of it for the TL;DR people.

Basically... I think 90% of us agree that counters to towers make the game interesting... Complete DENIALS of our building options are not... So here were my suggestions as to how to change some of the existing mobs (some intended as counters, some not) to create a HEALTHY array of counters to towers.

These suggestions can also have an added benefit of helping the games progression, and finally giving practice mode a meaningful place, and a more interesting Trials mode. See the bottom for more on that :P

Vanguards

  • Shield treated as a separate unit with its own HP that is approx 2-3x the actual units HP
  • Removal of Projectile absorption
  • Still counters projectiles, just not as hard

Short and simple... This change allows projectile towers to EVENTUALLY damage it, while it still soaks a lot of projectiles. Treating the shield as a unit with its own HP also adds the nice effect of allowing piercing attacks to go through it (which really just makes logical sense?). Also fixes the "bug" of PDT's attacking through the shield.

Cyborks

  • Natural EMP aura, rather than based on its attack
  • EMP aura no longer disables ground defenses
  • All Ground defense caught in the EMP have their attack speed halved
  • Still counters ground... Again, just not as hard

Cyborks are not hard to deal with... But they are a major fun killer for ground defenses. I think this version would encourage the use of projectiles by massively limiting ground defenses damage, but still allowing them to provide a decent amount of utility for build synergies.

Geodes

  • Shield changed to ABSORB projectiles, NOT REFLECT
  • Negative Tenacity (i.e. stuns last longer)
  • Counters Ranged, does not make range a liability...
  • Abuses unique attribute to make counterable

Basically... for those that haven't noticed, geodes drop their shield when they are CC'ed (not sure about knock ups, but I'm PRETTY sure they do it too). By making their shield absorb, projectiles are no longer a liability, and a well placed CC will let them get through that shield to keep doing work, while the negative tenacity will give you a bigger opening for the geodes specifically.

Berserkers

  • More speed and damage
  • Less Health

No real complaints for these... Honestly think these were the best designed coming out, even if a bit simple. Think it'd be nice just to fine tune their niche, by making hard CC a little more required to stop them in their tracks by making them cover more distance faster.

Assassin

  • Slightly more damage, decently less HP
  • Removal of "silence" effect
  • Moves invisiblely until a certain distance away from the player, rather than teleporting to/from the player.
  • On appearance, significantly reduces hero move speed and/or significantly boosts assassin's move speed (Enough that you CAN NOT out run them)
  • Still anti-hero, just not anti-fun

Alternative Suggestion (Credit to kingoftime2013):

  • No more teleporting away, meaning they only silence once, and then stay on the map.

One of the fun parts of DD1 dark elves was the panic you felt trying to dodge them and run for your life while still killing them. Or maybe I'm just jumpy... lol... Think most agree that silence gimmick isn't fun or interesting. I think these changes would make assassins feel terrifying (with the right numbers) while still not being just anti-fun.

Javelins

  • slightly more range? (Very Debatable, they already attack from a mile lol)
  • Reduced attack speed (maybe as far as halved)
  • Increased damage (enough to at the least make up for attack speed loss)
  • Reduced HP
  • Increased projectile width (for piercing effect)
  • Reduction or revisit of piercing distance (this thing has felt off since trials... Piercing way too far it seems)

Basically the idea is to make these anti-short range. Would either need some uber ranged towers, reflects beams to stop the chip damage until you can react with your hero, or some interesting tower placements to catch these guys. And the further back they are, the less likely CC towers are going to fine them, and the more likely they get to attack and widdle the walls.

EDIT: Hex-throwers are so close to this idea, I'm pretty happy with them! They at least got the uber range, which actually turned out better than I thought it might. So +1 for Trendy imo.

Drakos

  • More HP
  • SLIGHTLY less range
  • Increased DPS
  • Changed attack to be a flame breath (like flamethrower tower)

Makes these guys still AOE, but less sporadic bursts that randomly hit things, and more of a un-reflectable flamethrower that will burn your walls and anything near them down if you don't make sure they die.

Dark Mages

  • Significantly reduced HP (maybe 50% of current)
  • Removal of personal attack
  • Increased rate of healing
  • Removal of big skeleton summons
  • Significantly increased summon rates
  • Summoned skeletons ALWAYS summon from mages location

Basically, I say let these be the attrition, AOE soaking enemies. Making them a little less tanky means placing smart towers can more easily snipe them, but with a significantly increased summoning rate, anything attacking the front will never get through to it. Moving the skeleton spawns onto the mage itself (or at least slightly in front of the mage) will just help stop some of the annoying skeletons that bug out and fall off places they aren't supposed to go.

War Boars

  • Reduced HP (between 50-75% of current)
  • After taking damage for the first time, Boars start to hunker down (happens after about 1-2 seconds) and begin to take reduced damage (25-50% less) and have increased Tenacity for a few seconds.

Creates a pro-burst, anti-DPS mob. Might finally give us a reason to put up with towers like ballistas that have 3+ seconds between attacks.

Goblins

  • DRASTICALLY Increased Tenacity (To the point of being almost CC immune)

While small, and probably still wouldn't make goblins any less of cannon fodder... Goblins ARE some extremely tenacious creatures ( I mean, look at dreamanime ).

Practice makes perfect (for farming...)

So currently practice has no purpose... we all know that. You'll notice that with all my suggestions, there are no longer any HARD counters. With the recent patch, Trendy isolated all the hard counters to different tiers. If we REMOVE the hard counters, we can easily start mixing them in together again!

So here is my suggestion... Trials = ALL enemies with this change. "Practice" mode becomes the normal mode, in which you get that new monster specifically thrown in (with maybe a few from before). This gives us a reason to up the loot in trials, and put REASONABLE loot in the normal, non trials version.

This then gives a lower bracket and an upper bracket for each chaos tier, making the transition easier for a LOT of players again, as well as allowing us to start farming shards on maps we want to play, instead of just random Trials maps.

DU

Now since I'm already a mile in... I might as well throw in my 2 cents again for asking for more DU to give us more room for interesting builds that react to these mob ideas.

For the masochists, you can find another one of my mile long posts explaining the pros vs cons here.

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Edit:

Added an idea for war boars, cause why not?

Also added a suggestion that might make [[94093,users]] happy...

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I like almost all of your suggestions, but the range increase of the javelins seems like a hard counter to certains builds for me.

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@NeedtoDie quote:

I like almost all of your suggestions, but the range increase of the javelins seems like a hard counter to certains builds for me.

That one was a question in general, just cause they already have insane attack range lol. Also, FYI about the AI, no matter what their range they seem to eventually walk forward into range. You can see it a lot with dark mages. They'll fire 4-5 times from a mile away, then randomly decide to walk forward a bit before attacking.

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@xArcAngel quote:

That one was a question in general, just cause they already have insane attack range lol. Also, FYI about the AI, no matter what their range they seem to eventually walk forward into range. You can see it a lot with dark mages. They'll fire 4-5 times from a mile away, then randomly decide to walk forward a bit before attacking.

Dark mage do walk forward at some point, but javelin throwers can stay out of range for hours. I have had them patiently destroy 2m+ walls alone, out of range of any defense, I had to go and kill them myself.

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@NeedtoDie quote:


@xArcAngel quote:

That one was a question in general, just cause they already have insane attack range lol. Also, FYI about the AI, no matter what their range they seem to eventually walk forward into range. You can see it a lot with dark mages. They'll fire 4-5 times from a mile away, then randomly decide to walk forward a bit before attacking.

Dark mage do walk forward at some point, but javelin throwers can stay out of range for hours. I have had them patiently destroy 2m+ walls alone, out of range of any defense, I had to go and kill them myself.

Ah! Nice to know. Then yeah, I'll probably reconsider that one. While the idea IS to counter short range towers, I imagine getting that range perfectly in balance (especially with the difference between range gambit and no range gambit with some towers). 

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@Randomroxas quote:
@xArcAngel quote:

Added alternative suggestion for assassin based on suggestion from kingoftime2013

You might wanna check out my thread i made like an hour ago xD
You can find it here

Found it, also stealing the invis thing from yours (mostly cause I didn't realize how they worked when I originally made this thread lol).

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  • 4 weeks later...

Not sure if a month without a comment makes a dead thread but (if yes) this thread should've never died in the first place :)
at least not before getting answered by devs.

@lll_vrede_lll quote:

Bump

Hint Hint


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Well bringing this thread back alive after the whole fed up thread may give it more attention again.

I just hope they don't push this game out of early access too soon because right now the game needs way more changes, than content updates.
This thread being one of the changes.

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