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phantoml25

Ideas for summoner redesign (not abyss lord)

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So, recently Iamisom mentioned that the summoner might != the abyss lord. Which means there might still be room for summoner antics to come back! (though maybe nerf the MU, or just combine with DU). 

However, there's a problem: the summoner looks too similar to the abyss lord with their DD1 attire. So, I'm posting this thread to see if we can come up with a redesign showing their growth and possibly shedding that old cloak. Post drawings, descriptions, anyway you like. 

Let's see if we can inspire Trendy to bring back our old floating friend!

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Very easy. Use some of the other summoner skins. Like the demon one :) . I would love summoner in DD2 

Make him/her more demonic and the towers more demon like (demon mage, demon spear thrower etc)

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@phantoml25 quote:

So, recently Iamisom mentioned that the summoner might != the abyss lord. Which means there might still be room for summoner antics to come back! (though maybe nerf the MU, or just combine with DU). 

However, there's a problem: the summoner looks too similar to the abyss lord with their DD1 attire. So, I'm posting this thread to see if we can come up with a redesign showing their growth and possibly shedding that old cloak. Post drawings, descriptions, anyway you like. 

Let's see if we can inspire Trendy to bring back our old floating friend!

I feel like you're quoting me here... If that's the case, I'm only recently coming back, so that "recently" is more like a long time ago lol. It was sometime right after EV2 came out? Just to give an honest reality lol.

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@Pegazul quote:

Very easy. Use some of the other summoner skins. Like the demon one :) . I would love summoner in DD2 

I'd love summoner with the demon skin, but that one dryad costume has a fairly similar style, though the face is different.  Honestly I don't even remember what the default summoner skin in DD1 looked like because I only used the demon skin.  *googles* okay yeah, that's kinda abyss lord-y.

The separate minion units were probably the most broken thing about the summoner.  They made him a must-have because it was the only way to utilize those extra units.  So that mechanic would have to be reworked to keep him balanced with the other classes.

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@tdb quote:
@Pegazul quote:

Very easy. Use some of the other summoner skins. Like the demon one :) . I would love summoner in DD2 

I'd love summoner with the demon skin, but that one dryad costume has a fairly similar style, though the face is different.  Honestly I don't even remember what the default summoner skin in DD1 looked like because I only used the demon skin.  *googles* okay yeah, that's kinda abyss lord-y.

The separate minion units were probably the most broken thing about the summoner.  They made him a must-have because it was the only way to utilize those extra units.  So that mechanic would have to be reworked to keep him balanced with the other classes.

MU = half or 1/3 DU?

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How about using it's ability mana as MU ? As long as summons are on the field, the summoner must sustain their cost.

I really liked the summoner in DD1, but I found Abyss Lord really disapointing. I really liked how you could move your summons and give them basic orders. Having the overlord mode gave an entirely new dimension to the game. I was disapointed even with the skins of the Abyss Lord. Reaaalllyyy not a fan of the tentacles...

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why not just increase the du all round rather than force people into buying a character to have towers, that was half of dd1's downfall where the summoner made the game to easy.

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@Nefhith quote:

MU = half or 1/3 DU?

As long as there's any separate MU, the fact remains that having the summoner provides an advantage that can't be obtained in any other way.

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As far as balancing issues... Here are kinda my suggestions.

Design:

Thematically, all the heroes grew up and changed a little. So why not the summoner? He's stronger now, and has learned his craft. So now he no longer hides behind his hood, and no longer needs his book for his incantations. For the head, maybe aim for a crystalized-demon look? His hands were clearly made of crystals anyways. And for a "weapon" give him a floating crystal he carries that is the source of his creatures.

Combat:

Of course hes the overlord... so he has no reason to ever attack himself. Make his "healing" ability is ethereal state combined with his overlord view. Keep the player in the 3rd person view, but teleport the summoner to the top of the map, floating, so he can look down and select his minions. Also of course heal him...

For his other 3 "hero" abilities, make those his minion controls. 1 = Move, 2 = Attack(Must select enemy), 3 = The Crystal Seed (explained in MU section).

5-8 are of course his  summoning options. For balance, I say ONLY let him summon when hes not ethereal (so he has a chance to die if he does during combat). As far as what specific minions... Mage/Healer and Spider/Debuffer are my only two real requests. Just thought they were awesome unique utilities.

Left click = select units of course. Maybe make 3 = Deselect all instead of having to click off? Not sure what best/easiest to program without overburdening the system would be. Would not be optimal imo tho (explained in MU as to why). Default AI once they move to a location is "hold ground" (as that was the only one that was ever useful).

Right click = Posses unit. Increases stats of that unit, and lets the summoner have full hero control over them. Maybe use the "healing" ability to exit, so that right click can become their special? Or just have right click un-posses as well. Dieing as a possessed unit kills the summoner as well (balance).

MU - The Problem Child...

First off... MU should be tied to the summoner being directly active 100%. If the summoner leaves the map, they should not be attacking anymore. The Crystal Seed is how I recommend this. The summoner "plants" his power into the map, bridging Etheria to his world (if you know summoner lore, it makes sense...). Without the summoners energy present, the seed wilts and cannot maintain its connection (put minions to sleep, not despawn).

**Skip ahead if you don't care about technical back end stuff**

This seed "tower" will keep track of the information about his minions. This is specifically thought of due to how I understand their systems programming. With this tower being constantly on the map (not getting swapped in/out by the hero deck, and loosing non-global data) it should help avoid bugs and abuse cases. It should keep track of the summoners resource, not the summoner itself. He should get that data FROM this tower, and the tower should get a notice when quick-swap keys are pressed (to check for summoners presence).

**Technical Stuff Done...**

This seed "tower" should not run off of relics. It should be affected by Ascension only IMO. Minions get the relics. Reverse of gun witch in that he gets no armor, since he can't fight (or if he does, make these stats the bonus he gets for possessing a unit).

Spawning the seed requires no mana or DU (balanced due to forced presence imo). It will increase its max MU limit by either growing from the damage its minions deal (likely impossible to balance at higher difficulties), enemies killed by minions (similar, but not as problematic), or by investing mana into the seed to grow it (can cause certain issues... but I probably think this is the best choice).


Sorry if that's a lot... you're welcome to nit pick it. I only thought on it for like an hour, so its probably extremely flawed.

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@In.Session quote:

this thread is pointless, we have a summoner.

That might of been Trendy's intent with Abyss Lord... its not 100% clear. Visually designed to be similar, but have almost nothing in common in their game play style. And while DD1 summoner was unbalanced as all get out... his INTENT was to appeal to those of us that prefer strategy and macro play over the hack and slash micro.

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@xArcAngel quote:

As far as balancing issues... Here are kinda my suggestions.

Design:

Thematically, all the heroes grew up and changed a little. So why not the summoner? He's stronger now, and has learned his craft. So now he no longer hides behind his hood, and no longer needs his book for his incantations. For the head, maybe aim for a crystalized-demon look? His hands were clearly made of crystals anyways. And for a "weapon" give him a floating crystal he carries that is the source of his creatures.

Combat:

Of course hes the overlord... so he has no reason to ever attack himself. Make his "healing" ability is ethereal state combined with his overlord view. Keep the player in the 3rd person view, but teleport the summoner to the top of the map, floating, so he can look down and select his minions. Also of course heal him...

For his other 3 "hero" abilities, make those his minion controls. 1 = Move, 2 = Attack(Must select enemy), 3 = The Crystal Seed (explained in MU section).

5-8 are of course his  summoning options. For balance, I say ONLY let him summon when hes not ethereal (so he has a chance to die if he does during combat). As far as what specific minions... Mage/Healer and Spider/Debuffer are my only two real requests. Just thought they were awesome unique utilities.

Left click = select units of course. Maybe make 3 = Deselect all instead of having to click off? Not sure what best/easiest to program without overburdening the system would be. Would not be optimal imo tho (explained in MU as to why). Default AI once they move to a location is "hold ground" (as that was the only one that was ever useful).

Right click = Posses unit. Increases stats of that unit, and lets the summoner have full hero control over them. Maybe use the "healing" ability to exit, so that right click can become their special? Or just have right click un-posses as well. Dieing as a possessed unit kills the summoner as well (balance).

MU - The Problem Child...

First off... MU should be tied to the summoner being directly active 100%. If the summoner leaves the map, they should not be attacking anymore. The Crystal Seed is how I recommend this. The summoner "plants" his power into the map, bridging Etheria to his world (if you know summoner lore, it makes sense...). Without the summoners energy present, the seed wilts and cannot maintain its connection (put minions to sleep, not despawn).

**Skip ahead if you don't care about technical back end stuff**

This seed "tower" will keep track of the information about his minions. This is specifically thought of due to how I understand their systems programming. With this tower being constantly on the map (not getting swapped in/out by the hero deck, and loosing non-global data) it should help avoid bugs and abuse cases. It should keep track of the summoners resource, not the summoner itself. He should get that data FROM this tower, and the tower should get a notice when quick-swap keys are pressed (to check for summoners presence).

**Technical Stuff Done...**

This seed "tower" should not run off of relics. It should be affected by Ascension only IMO. Minions get the relics. Reverse of gun witch in that he gets no armor, since he can't fight (or if he does, make these stats the bonus he gets for possessing a unit).

Spawning the seed requires no mana or DU (balanced due to forced presence imo). It will increase its max MU limit by either growing from the damage its minions deal (likely impossible to balance at higher difficulties), enemies killed by minions (similar, but not as problematic), or by investing mana into the seed to grow it (can cause certain issues... but I probably think this is the best choice).


Sorry if that's a lot... you're welcome to nit pick it. I only thought on it for like an hour, so its probably extremely flawed.

This is awesome! and tying the defences being active to the summoner being present both restricts the kinds of people that will want to play him and balances it by removing a player damage source, in a way.


The crystal could have some forms that reference the old eternia crystal skins you could get.


I'll keep thinking of new ideas building off your start here. Deciding the other two minions and working on balance is going to be fun!

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